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Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 05:09:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 05:12:55
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 05:09:56

I've complained about this a few times, and we've already seen a decrease in time for Dictor bubbles. But I think it's time to take another look at these ships.

Firstly, you now have heavy dictors which IMO are much more balanced for what they can do. They get great tanks, but their effects die with their ships.

The current problem with dictors is they drop a huge sphere warp disruption that can bubble huge chunks of a fleet. Even if the ship dies, their effect lingers either until you can MWD out of it, which takes huge amounts of time, or until the bubble drops, up to 2 minutes after the dictors death.

The ships are cheap and very disposable, making thier suicidal tendencies even greater, and ships are still allowed to warp on grid, which is probably the most ghetto feature in game as it's too easy to warp to wrecks (I'd have less issue with ship to ship warping staying).

So the fix:

Dictor base speed increase back to original values. This should become their primary defense again, while not being overly powered as the speed nerf comes in.

2 bubbles
Current Dictor bubble:
Timer 10 sec
Volume 1
Radius 20km


New bubble:
Timer 2 min
Vol 10
Radius 2.5-5km

Launcher:
ROF 10sec
Volume 20
Reload 30sec


This means the dictor now relies more on it's own survival than before. It's bubble selection will dictate more of how much of an effect it can have. The longer duration bubble can still work on gates if the dictor is placed in allingment, the shorter and longer bubble can both be used for podding.

Volume and Reload would affect mass spamming, but still allow a good coverage with the larger bubble.

Essentially, what this does is remove 1 ship from being the catchall of support in small combat and fleets. Right now, most fleets gear around 2 ships, BS and dictors. All other ships seem to be lost because tackling is left strictly to dictors.

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:25:00 - [2]
 

Thank god there's no lag in EVE, that would really have made this change unviable.

Narciss Sevar
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:26:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:35:47
I fail to see how a ship that isn't insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:35:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Narciss Sevar
I fail to see how a ship that is insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.


Pretty much.

Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:38:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:40:45
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:35:47
I fail to see how a ship that isn't insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.


have you played this game lately? I like this arguement, an alliance brags about alliance funded dreads replaced on a whim, and they complain about a 20mil isk ship.

Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:40:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Daveydweeb
Thank god there's no lag in EVE, that would really have made this change unviable.


yes, b/c lag doesn't work in both ways.... good job, cookie for you.

Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:44:00 - [7]
 

This idea and person are stupid is hurts.

Ship to Ship warps are bad? wtc you smoking do you even know how to play this game?

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:47:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Daveydweeb on 02/08/2008 07:51:57
Originally by: Luckyduck
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:40:45
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:35:47
I fail to see how a ship that isn't insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.


have you played this game lately? I like this arguement, an alliance brags about alliance funded dreads replaced on a whim, and they complain about a 20mil isk ship.


Not everyone gets their ship from the alliance, nor should you be encouraging a change that would render the cheaper version of heavy dictors totally unviable for larger fleets.

You still need to explain what's so fundamentally broken about small, fast ships being able to drop bubbles that persist beyond the existence of their own ship - especially because the bubbles can, and usually do, trap the dictor (and, importantly, their pod) that dropped them.

Quote:
yes, b/c lag doesn't work in both ways.... good job, cookie for you.


A couple of things that you apparently don't realise:

- Battleships should never take longer than ten seconds to align if you know how to manage your MWD, so a ten second bubble is utterly meaningless in the context of pretty much any fight. If its usefulness is so entirely dependent on heavy lag, then good god I'm glad you have no say in the development of this game.

- Fleets are never so tightly concentrated that you can bubble them with the smaller, 2 minute bubble. Even gangwarping them to a single point will result in their being dispersed over a greater area than the bubble would cover, unless the dictor's timing and placement are absolutely perfect.

- If you're suggesting a change where the longer, two minute bubble is incapable of tackling anything for more than ten seconds (hey, even a Rorqual will be able to traverse it in less time than it takes the bubble to expire), you're rendering the ship utterly useless except for gatecamps - which are one aspect of PVP that arguably needs to be deemphasised.

Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:48:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Aprudena Gist
This idea and person are stupid is hurts.

Ship to Ship warps are bad? wtc you smoking do you even know how to play this game?


Good job reading, I think I said those could stay, get rid of wrecks, next.

Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:50:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:51:09
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:49:53
Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: Luckyduck
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:40:45
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:35:47
I fail to see how a ship that isn't insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.


have you played this game lately? I like this arguement, an alliance brags about alliance funded dreads replaced on a whim, and they complain about a 20mil isk ship.


Not everyone gets their ship from the alliance, nor should you be encouraging a change that would render the cheaper version of heavy dictors totally unviable for larger fleets.

You still need to explain what's so fundamentally broken about small, fast ships being able to drop bubbles that persist beyond the existence of their own ship - especially because the bubbles can, and usually do, trap the dictor (and, importantly, their pod) that dropped them.
Originally by: Luckyduck


Essentially, what this does is remove 1 ship from being the catchall of support in small combat and fleets. Right now, most fleets gear around 2 ships, BS and dictors. All other ships seem to be lost because tackling is left strictly to dictors.



furthermore, why shouldn't 10-12 dictors be required to work more together rather than the theme be burn for the middle, drop and pray.
next

Narciss Sevar
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:51:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:51:54
Originally by: Luckyduck
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:40:45
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:35:47
I fail to see how a ship that isn't insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.


have you played this game lately? I like this arguement, an alliance brags about alliance funded dreads replaced on a whim, and they complain about a 20mil isk ship.
Because we have worked hard to provide expensive things to our alliance, and believe me they are expensive. We should believe they are because we can do it? Mr Churchill believed the war against Germany would be winnable, he did not believe it would be cheap.

Narciss Sevar
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:53:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:53:02
Originally by: Luckyduck
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:51:09
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:49:53
Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: Luckyduck
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:40:45
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:35:47
I fail to see how a ship that isn't insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.


have you played this game lately? I like this arguement, an alliance brags about alliance funded dreads replaced on a whim, and they complain about a 20mil isk ship.

Not everyone gets their ship from the alliance, nor should you be encouraging a change that would render the cheaper version of heavy dictors totally unviable for larger fleets.

You still need to explain what's so fundamentally broken about small, fast ships being able to drop bubbles that persist beyond the existence of their own ship - especially because the bubbles can, and usually do, trap the dictor (and, importantly, their pod) that dropped them.
Originally by: Luckyduck


Essentially, what this does is remove 1 ship from being the catchall of support in small combat and fleets. Right now, most fleets gear around 2 ships, BS and dictors. All other ships seem to be lost because tackling is left strictly to dictors.



furthermore, why shouldn't 10-12 dictors be required to work more together rather than the theme be burn for the middle, drop and pray.
next
They will do exactly the same thing, but more often with your suggestions. This is ridiculous.

Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:53:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:51:54
Originally by: Luckyduck
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:40:45
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:35:47
I fail to see how a ship that isn't insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.


have you played this game lately? I like this arguement, an alliance brags about alliance funded dreads replaced on a whim, and they complain about a 20mil isk ship.
Because we have worked hard to provide expensive things to our alliance, and believe me they are expensive. We should believe they are because we can do it? Mr Churchill believed the war against Germany would be winnable, he did not believe it would be cheap.


and how does that argue against dictor effects being changed at all?

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:54:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Luckyduck
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:51:09
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:49:53
Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: Luckyduck
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 07:40:45
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:35:47
I fail to see how a ship that isn't insurable and costs 20mil+ is cheap.


have you played this game lately? I like this arguement, an alliance brags about alliance funded dreads replaced on a whim, and they complain about a 20mil isk ship.


Not everyone gets their ship from the alliance, nor should you be encouraging a change that would render the cheaper version of heavy dictors totally unviable for larger fleets.

You still need to explain what's so fundamentally broken about small, fast ships being able to drop bubbles that persist beyond the existence of their own ship - especially because the bubbles can, and usually do, trap the dictor (and, importantly, their pod) that dropped them.
Originally by: Luckyduck


Essentially, what this does is remove 1 ship from being the catchall of support in small combat and fleets. Right now, most fleets gear around 2 ships, BS and dictors. All other ships seem to be lost because tackling is left strictly to dictors.



furthermore, why shouldn't 10-12 dictors be required to work more together rather than the theme be burn for the middle, drop and pray.
next


One dictor is never enough to tackle a capital or support fleet entirely independently, because it'll never survive against a competent support fleet.

Unless you're the kind of alliance that likes to cyno their titans 300km off capital fleets without anything to support them. They might survive that.

Narciss Sevar
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:55:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 08:01:13
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 08:00:49
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:56:26
Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
stuff

It is an argument against your premise of them being cheap. Which is a main premise of your argument. Just because your enemy has worked hard to provide a weapon against you does not mean that because they have that means it is cheap. If it were cheap The Requiem would have a program of their own, but since you don't this point is mute and clearly just an argument to change the game to your own advantage when you cannot do so ingame.

Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 07:58:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Daveydweeb
long stuff


It's not about 1 dictor, it's about 8-10 doing the job of 30 support. People newer to this game don't seem to remember the day the frigate class actually did something in fleets more than zoom around like tards.

Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 08:00:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 02/08/2008 07:56:26
Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
stuff

It is an argument against your premise of them being cheap. Which is a mean premise of your argument. Just because you enemy has worked hard to provide a weapon against you does not mean that because they have that means it is cheap. If it were cheap The Requiem would have a program of their own, but since you don't this point is mute and clearly just an argument to change the game to your own advantage when you cannot do so ingame.


this has nothing to do with our current war, In fact, i'll gladly go find about 10-12 past history post on this same topic from myself. The fact that it's been proposed now is strictly coincidence.

Honestly, PL deserves praise for the use of heavy dictors in fleet lately, b/c they've been quite good with them.

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 08:01:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Daveydweeb
long stuff


It's not about 1 dictor, it's about 8-10 doing the job of 30 support. People newer to this game don't seem to remember the day the frigate class actually did something in fleets more than zoom around like tards.


Well, you need to tell me how you anticipate dictors being able to coordinate at the level you'd like them to in the sometimes laughably high lag that you've already accepted exists. Once you've done that, you need to deal with - ohidon'tknow - everything else that's been said in this thread regarding the time it takes to traverse those bubbles, the ability of dictors to survive against a support fleet and maybe, if you have time, you could even respond to the titan burn.

That said, I think there's probably a deeper reason why you posted this thread. Have your tacklers not been responding to the pep talks anymore?

Narciss Sevar
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 08:02:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Daveydweeb
long stuff


It's not about 1 dictor, it's about 8-10 doing the job of 30 support. People newer to this game don't seem to remember the day the frigate class actually did something in fleets more than zoom around like tards.


Well, you need to tell me how you anticipate dictors being able to coordinate at the level you'd like them to in the sometimes laughably high lag that you've already accepted exists. Once you've done that, you need to deal with - ohidon'tknow - everything else that's been said in this thread regarding the time it takes to traverse those bubbles, the ability of dictors to survive against a support fleet and maybe, if you have time, you could even respond to the titan burn.

That said, I think there's probably a deeper reason why you posted this thread. Have your tacklers not been responding to the pep talks anymore?
I'm not sure davey. I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself and decide whether you really belong in 0.0.

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 08:08:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Narciss Sevar
not sure davey. I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself and decide whether you really belong in 0.0.


I could care less if I kill a Tech One Goon Frigate, as long as I'm getting kills. Every kill is a kill.

Narciss Sevar
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 08:13:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
not sure davey. I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself and decide whether you really belong in 0.0.


I could care less if I kill a Tech One Goon Frigate, as long as I'm getting kills. Every kill is a kill.
Well the idea is to not have equal fights, it draws them into your game more. They can't cloak if you make em chase you, so don't fight them, but kill them every chance you get. Do you have any questions about that?

Luckyduck
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.02 08:47:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Daveydweeb
long stuff


It's not about 1 dictor, it's about 8-10 doing the job of 30 support. People newer to this game don't seem to remember the day the frigate class actually did something in fleets more than zoom around like tards.


Well, you need to tell me how you anticipate dictors being able to coordinate at the level you'd like them to in the sometimes laughably high lag that you've already accepted exists. Once you've done that, you need to deal with - ohidon'tknow - everything else that's been said in this thread regarding the time it takes to traverse those bubbles, the ability of dictors to survive against a support fleet and maybe, if you have time, you could even respond to the titan burn.

That said, I think there's probably a deeper reason why you posted this thread. Have your tacklers not been responding to the pep talks anymore?


Lag can't be the argument b/c no ship can coordinate in high lag, it's just a crap shoot. You can't design a game around lag.

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 08:54:00 - [23]
 

Nice post, broheim.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.08.02 10:17:00 - [24]
 

Ya, this idea is pretty terrible. First, dictors go slow because they pre-nerf could catch some interceptors thus making interceptors obsolete. Ask for anything other than speed and that is worth considering, but no to +speed on dictors.

Small 2.5-5km bubble is useless. If you have ever been in a large fleet you should know it is quite impossible to put that many targets in a 2.5km sphere, even a 3 BS gang would get out of a 2.5km sphere without even trying.

A cool new bubble would be a 30 second 30-35km bubble or a 10-15km 5 minute bubble. I could see situations where I would use such bubbles, but I can never see a situation where I would want a short range bubble.

Your comment ahout fleets being only made up of BS and dictors shows your ignorance in ACTUAL INGAME combat. Sure those ships are needed the most, but instead of reading your alliance op mail, actually join in the battle and see what actually happens on the fiedl of play.

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.02 10:37:00 - [25]
 

You're probably not aware of this but Luckyduck is a former BoB Fleet Commander who became infamous for a "pep talk" he gave to RISE shortly before the fall of RIT-. He left BoB during the Delve campaign a while back to join Requiem (hahahahahahahahaha).

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:04:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 02/08/2008 11:04:52

In any amount of lag at all, the small bubble is utterly worthless unless your dictor is stationary at the time you drop it, because even a one second delay between your keyboard and the server will have you overshooting the target. And a 10-second large rebubble is grossly overpowered as it lets you reposition a new bubble to account for the target's movements every 10 seconds, making it impossible for large ships to burn out.

Plus, as mentioned by another poster, returning dictors to their original speed is to completely sideline interceptors (and T1 frigates, for that matter) in 0.0 combat, because that is what was happening before their speed was cut.

Chirinako
Caldari
The Junkyard Dogs
Talos Coalition
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:05:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Chirinako on 02/08/2008 11:06:31
Don't really agree with this at all. I don't really see why something that isn't broken should be fixed.

The reason Warp Disruption Probes sit out there for so long even if a dictor dies is because they are PROBES. A HICtor's bubble is powered from the ships own grid, it does not LAUNCH the bubble. A normal Interdictor launches a self powered probe. It's only common sense that the probe it launches will be self powered and last more than 10 seconds.

I do agree to an extent that dictors are slightly overpowered for what they do but I can't honestly see any realistic way of nerfing them. Infact, the ONLY thing I can see as a decent addition to the Interdictor is to make the deployment of a bubble aggressive to prevent them from jumping out. I know if someone tries to warp inside a dictor bubble that gives aggro, but a dictor should be aggroed before that even happens.

Also agree with the guy above. Returning Dictors to their previous speed is an absolutely rediculous idea for the reasons mentioned - They would make Interceptors and T1 Frigs completely obsolete.

Sorry Yaay, just really don't agree with you on this one.

Vernon Kurkland
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:19:00 - [28]
 

how about a really simple way of fixing a problem taht imo doesnt exist, make the probes shootable? but make it either have a really low sig radius so it takes time to lock or give it a largish amount of hp

Spyra Gryra
Cruoris Seraphim
Exalted.
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:59:00 - [29]
 

I don't think Luckyduck is a smart man. I think he is wrong.

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.04 01:31:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Vernon Kurkland
how about a really simple way of fixing a problem taht imo doesnt exist, make the probes shootable? but make it either have a really low sig radius so it takes time to lock or give it a largish amount of hp


You can already smartbomb them, just like scan probes.


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