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Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.08.07 00:24:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Gordon Red
The point is that we are dieing even vs ships that aren't fitted vs ceptors!

- A Hurricane with ACs isn't fitted vs ceptors in the first place, that's their NORMAL PvP-setup.
- A ratting Caracal with T1-heavies is also not thought to be the ceptor killer. => An assault missile Caracal with light precisions would be anticeptor, but that's not needed!

Reduce the mass => resulting in greater speed even with the the 500%MWDs and we get also better acceleration back


This. When a heavy cruiser fit for damage can 1 or 2 volley an interceptor with a normal fit, at orbit distance, you know something is broken. When a battleship can effectively kill an interceptor without any dedicated anti frigate weaponry, something's broken. 5x light drones and a heavy neut is enough to kill an interceptor post patch, thanks to the MWD re-activation penalty

H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits Academy
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2008.08.07 12:16:00 - [92]
 

Interceptors are still fine. Their new role is being T2 shuttles. Maybe CCP can remove the highslots and rename them...ugh

/Sarcasm off

Ushatuhkwa Kaeshe
Posted - 2008.08.07 17:52:00 - [93]
 

So how do you stop people from talking about speed? - give them something else to get riled up about! Suicide Ganking!

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.08.07 20:35:00 - [94]
 

This thread is full of fail. Ceptors can still tackle just fine and also get rid of 5xwarrior IIs. Sorry but people will still fly ceptors and they will still tackle.

Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2008.08.08 18:43:00 - [95]
 

*sigh* Yes, they'll be able to tackle, but they aren't nearly as survivable as they need to be, that's the whole point. You may be able to kill warrior IIs, but you can't do a damn thing about t1 heavy missiles or the ACs of a gank hurricane. They don't need to be completely reworked, they just need to go 1000kms faster.

Koti Resci
Knighthawk Light Industries
Posted - 2008.08.09 10:14:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
I don't even know why CCP nerfed the interdictors, no one was whining about them at all. Since the nerf I can't count the number of times FCs have had to offer to cover dictor loses from corp funds just to get someone to bring one since they are now just flying coffins.

One of many difficult to understand decisions by CCP that leaves me pessimistic about the future tbh.

Obviously you're either oblivious or too new. People were complaining about interdictors. They still are very easy to train into, but they used to also be very easily nanoed like HACs and Recons are on TQ today. The Sabre was especially whined about -- the other dictors were OK... kind've.

Liam Liam
Posted - 2008.08.09 14:35:00 - [97]
 

The problem as I see it is a bit larger than one ship
The problem is they are basing their balancing on the fact that ships
can have rigs, they then balance them with rigs in mind ..
but not a lot of people put expensive rigs on frigs or inties

simple solution make rigs for small ships much cheaper, call them mini rigs
same stats just a fraction say 5- 10 % of the component cost to make but only fit on small ships.

Euriti
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.09 14:39:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
This thread is full of fail. Ceptors can still tackle just fine and also get rid of 5xwarrior IIs. Sorry but people will still fly ceptors and they will still tackle.


Yeah I'll totally kill those warrior IIs in my ares while I'm capping out because of gun use. I'll also look forward to being killed in 3 volleys by assault missile cerbs and being ****d by every single support ship while burning in to give warpins.

It's hard enough to stay alive as it is especially with module lag. Just 2 seconds of lost transversal gets you killed very very fast.

Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2008.08.10 15:41:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Koti Resci
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
I don't even know why CCP nerfed the interdictors, no one was whining about them at all. Since the nerf I can't count the number of times FCs have had to offer to cover dictor loses from corp funds just to get someone to bring one since they are now just flying coffins.

One of many difficult to understand decisions by CCP that leaves me pessimistic about the future tbh.

Obviously you're either oblivious or too new. People were complaining about interdictors. They still are very easy to train into, but they used to also be very easily nanoed like HACs and Recons are on TQ today. The Sabre was especially whined about -- the other dictors were OK... kind've.



Allow me to rephrase that then. True some people were complaining, but most of the people I saw complaining were generally just griping that the Sabre was faster than their race's own dictor, and seeing as how back then the Minmatar used to have a racial advantage of manouverabiliy that was fairly easily justified. Not very many people with a clue were complaining that dictors in general needed nerfing hard. I would argue that's not so much being oblivious as filtering out the crap from the informed commentary, but to each their own.

They are no easier to train than they should be. They are harder to train than Interceptors and easier to train than HACs, which is exactly where they should be.

They require Interceptor IV to fly and thus it could be argued are one of the few classes of ships that are expressly intended to be nanoed as part of their core role.

Personally I thought they were a very balanced ship class with a clear role and what's more they were one of they few classes of ships left that offered any potential for solo work. I find it difficult to see how nerfing them to near uselessness has improved Eve, hence my pessimism.

Andre Coeurl
Gallente
TOHA Heavy Industries
TOHA Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.08.10 16:20:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
This thread is full of fail. Ceptors can still tackle just fine and also get rid of 5xwarrior IIs. Sorry but people will still fly ceptors and they will still tackle.


Yeah I'll totally kill those warrior IIs in my ares while I'm capping out because of gun use. I'll also look forward to being killed in 3 volleys by assault missile cerbs and being ****d by every single support ship while burning in to give warpins.

It's hard enough to stay alive as it is especially with module lag. Just 2 seconds of lost transversal gets you killed very very fast.


I hate to admit it, but I fully agree with a PL pilot this time Laughing
And beside that, I fully endorse the OP's reasoning: this changes kill the "normal" ceptor use, meaning the T2 fitted one (no implants or rigs.

This has been my exact experience on SiSi, if you don't fit rigs+implants your ceptor is going to be a piece of shiny expensive junk WHILE DOING IT'S INTENDED JOB!
If this change will go live they will affect ceptors so heavily that you will see them flown only by ppl who can afford very expensive losses very often... that means the "average" pilot's role in PVP will be restricted, and BTW also ships like the Hyena and Keres will become as useless.

Sadly I bet CCP will make the changes go live anyway, since the whine of "poorly-fitted-BS pilots" is as usual too high, and after a while, seeing how badly this changes will affect all fleet and small gang PVPers CCP will do a (minor) rethinking... ugh

Antonia Frak
Republic University
Posted - 2008.08.10 16:55:00 - [101]
 

So, how did interceptor pilots when there weren't speed and agility rigs around?

Lake
The Praxis Initiative
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2008.08.11 08:25:00 - [102]
 

I mentioned it in a followup post in my much more general thread regarding the rebalance, but this thread seems to have some good discussion so I was hoping for some review of the suggestion here:

Drop the 5% reduction in sigRadius Interceptor Skill Bonus and replace it with a (maybe) 20% per level addition to the Overload Speed Bonus.

So at level 5 you'd get something like a 100%-150% bonus to AB speed while overloaded. Which means you could fly in close with a decent speed and a low sigRadius, and still make those long-dashes in a reasonable time with an AB.

I have two major concerns:

1) My thermodynamics skills on SISI aren't that great. It's possible that an increase in 'heat damage' would be necessary to keep this from being too sustainable by a higher skill character.

2) MWDs have the same Overload Speed Bonus attribute, and may benefit even more from the ship bonus. There would likely need to be a way to make overloading less effective. MWDs already have almost twice the heat damage value. Perhaps just a flat 'only works on afterburners' is the simplest solution.

Thoughts?

DFox31
Posted - 2008.08.11 08:32:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: TZeer
Quote:
Unfortunately, a long range interceptor no longer has the transversal to avoid hits by battleships and battlecruiser turrets.


Wrong, atleast on the battelship guns. Had multiple runs aginst amarr snipers starting from 240km out and closed in on them without taking a single hit. So the interceptor still works for this. And yes, they knew I was comming.

Quote:
And a short range interceptor no longer has the speed to avoid hits by missiles.


Depends how short you mean. At 19km inty have no problem staying there. 9km, it starts taking damage, you can stay there for a short time so your gang gets there. But you not invincible.

Quote:
Even a Snake + Officer Modules + Zors + t2 rigs fitted interceptor is unable to tack in to a group of snipers without getting shot out of the sky


BS snipers, no problem, did with a claw, T2 fittings, no implants and no gangbonuses. But if sniper spread out tactically or they have some support with them, ofcourse you gonna have problem.


I got instapopped by two sniper apoc's on the test server a couple days ago.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.11 21:40:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Lake
Drop the 5% reduction in sigRadius Interceptor Skill Bonus and replace it with a (maybe) 20% per level addition to the Overload Speed Bonus
....
Thoughts?


I am generally against any bonus that makes it required to train a secondary skill in order to perform a primary function. The ship should function in it's intended role fitted with "stock" equipment, and that's what it should be balanced around. Otherwise, you force an unrelated skill tree to be trained, in order to perform the ships' intended role.

That is no different than the current situation of "We need to nerf interceptors because all interceptor pilots overload, have HG Snakes, and use polycarbs and DEDspace MWD's. Therefore, an interceptor pilot with overload, snakes, and rigs, and DEDspace MWD should be able do the role of "tackling" while avoiding some damage but not all."

If that was the case, then we should nerf shield amps, shield boosters, active hardeners and implants so that a pilot fitted with all of those can do it's intended role of running a level 4 mission, while still taking moderate damage and incurring some danger. Since, you know, all mission runners use CNRs with full implants, DEDspace shield equipment, and pirate implants. We don't really care that if you run with stock equipment you get instapopped, obviously you shouldn't be doing your intended role if you don't have 3bil to spare.

Fake edit: let's not give the devs any ideas Shocked

Lake
The Praxis Initiative
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2008.08.12 19:16:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Ash Vincetti
...
I am generally against any bonus that makes it required to train a secondary skill in order to perform a primary function. The ship should function in it's intended role fitted with "stock" equipment, and that's what it should be balanced around. Otherwise, you force an unrelated skill tree to be trained, in order to perform the ships' intended role.
...



I suppose then I should get my skill points back for Gravimetrics IV (HICs), Propulsion Jamming V (Dictors), Adv Weapon Upgrades V (Dreads), Advanced Drone Interfacing (Carrier)... shall I continue?

I see your point. I just think that ship has sailed. I'd rather it beat Heat than Implant sets, wouldn't you?

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.12 23:09:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 12/08/2008 23:50:21
Originally by: Lake
I suppose then I should get my skill points back for Gravimetrics IV (HICs), Propulsion Jamming V (Dictors), Adv Weapon Upgrades V (Dreads), Advanced Drone Interfacing (Carrier)... shall I continue?

I see your point. I just think that ship has sailed. I'd rather it beat Heat than Implant sets, wouldn't you?


Re-reading my statement, I think I should have clarified my statement to read:

Originally by: Ash Vincetti
I am generally against any bonus that makes it required to train an unrelated secondary skill in order to perform a primary function.


Gravimetrics IV is required for warp field disruptors, much like navigation IV is required to operate a MWD, Propulsion Jamming IV is required to operate a bubble launcher, much like Gunnery III is required to operate a medium energy turret, or Propulsion Jamming I is required to operate a Warp Disruptor. Advanced Drone Interfacing and AWU V, required for Dreads and Carriers (As well as Marauders) are required to unlock more advanced ship classes, much like "Interceptors" already requires "Evasive Maneuvering V" - Now, if Interceptors required "Thermodynamics" in order to operate, then you could argue that a bonus for that skill would be in order, but it doesn't.

For now, I will wait to see what the test changes are regarding agility, the removal of the MWD reactivation penalty (thanks CCP Nozh), and a what the changed values on all of those are before I give more feedback. I've already pointed out what my main concerns were, and re-hashing those again before testing the latest changes would not be constructive to the discussion at hand.

By the way, I haven't responded to your (long) analysis of speed yet, but I have read it, and I agree with most of it. I think that the ridiculous speeds we have been seeing in tranquility are largely a symptom of how signature radius/tracking/missile damage is implemented, and may be indicative of the need to increase the difference between ship classes significantly as a way to achieve balance without breaking the physics engine. I will likely continue that discussion in your thread in more detail later on.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.08.12 23:58:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Ash Vincetti
I'm curious here, after heavy testing in SiSi, what the supposed role of interceptors is post-patch.

I've been a dedicated interceptor pilot for pretty much my entire eve career. As time has gone on, the availability of counters to interceptors have increased, and other ships have come in that start making interceptors more and more redundant. With this latest change, i'm afraid this may have been the final nail in the coffin.


TBH I think it's the other way round

Unless you rig your ceptor on TQ atm you're very likely to be outsped by certain HACs; particually the Vagabond. Ceptors like the Taranis have extremely limited use since they're too slow to outrun many Nanos (and will die a horrible death with no chance to do a thing to a Vaga) and a blaster setup requires getting in webrange which, with 90% webs, is often suicide.

On SiSi, this is no longer the case. Web nerf means it can actually survive when under 10km and you no longer need to Polycarb it to not be rendered completely obselete by a Vaga. If anything this is a boost to Ceptors.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.13 00:05:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
TBH I think it's the other way round

Unless you rig your ceptor on TQ atm you're very likely to be outsped by certain HACs; particually the Vagabond. Ceptors like the Taranis have extremely limited use since they're too slow to outrun many Nanos (and will die a horrible death with no chance to do a thing to a Vaga) and a blaster setup requires getting in webrange which, with 90% webs, is often suicide.


I'm with you so far. This is certainly a problem in TQ, however, after the patch, the same will still be the case. Getting into the range of a Vaga to tackle it is still death, the only difference is that the vaga will now have trouble catching you.

Quote:
On SiSi, this is no longer the case. Web nerf means it can actually survive when under 10km and you no longer need to Polycarb it to not be rendered completely obselete by a Vaga. If anything this is a boost to Ceptors.

I'm still on the fence on whether it's a boost or a nerf. I'm wating to test the latest set of changes on Multiplicity before I give more feedback and analyze further, but in the past previous weeks, attempting to tackle Vagas, Zealots, Ruptures, Canes, etc, usually were met with pretty disastrous results on the FFAs, both with ABs and with MWDs. Certain interceptors were more heavily affected than others, of course, and your individual piloting styles and skills produce different results, of course.

There is the added factor that the FFAs aren't "Real field conditions", but that's another discussion entirely.

Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.08.13 00:38:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Antonia Frak
So, how did interceptor pilots when there weren't speed and agility rigs around?


yes someone answer this. back in 2003 when there were no rigs, implants and velocity mods, what did ceptors do? ugh

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.08.13 02:34:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Antonia Frak
So, how did interceptor pilots when there weren't speed and agility rigs around?


yes someone answer this. back in 2003 when there were no rigs, implants and velocity mods, what did ceptors do? ugh


ceptors didn't exist in 2003 Razz

Ceptors in 2006 however were rarely ever fitted with Overdrives; preferring things like Damage controls, damage mods, CPRs, Plate and even a Rep in some cases. Ceptors were much slower but a lot less fragile at the same time too and generally did more damage.

When the Nano Age arrived all that was ditched for as much speed as was humanly possible as the importance of it skyrocketed Confused

Rassad
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.08.13 02:36:00 - [111]
 

Intercepters are cheap.
A HAC should be able to kill one fairly easily.

Post patch Assult frigs will become more used, becuase they can tank better, sounds good to me becuase before there wasnt much need for them.

Intercepters role will proberly to get a quick point on hostile targets, with thier fast targeting.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.15 06:52:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Rassad
Intercepters are cheap.
A HAC should be able to kill one fairly easily.


By that same measure, a HAC should be able to kill a BC fairly easily. A BS should be able to kill BC's, HACs, Cruisers & Frigates Fairly Easily,a and a Solo Titan is the be all and end all of all combat.

Quote:
Intercepters role will proberly to get a quick point on hostile targets, with thier fast targeting.

That's always been the interceptors' role. Except now a Covops can do it faster since they can drop a probe off grid and be on top of the enemy faster than the interceptor can slowboat to a fleet. Much safer too, since the interceptor is slower.

I haven't been on test for the latest batch of changes since SiSi got mirrored and a patch for the new trinity is being prepared, and I haven't felt like setting up a shortcut to the other server to test things out, but i'll probably double check them again. From the comments from CCP Nozh, i get the feeling that at least the agility has been looked at for interceptors, and hopefully, at least a little bit of speed as well. The fact that my unrigged, unimplanted, t2 stock fit interceptor in tranq is faster and more agile than anything I can put on SiSi, implants and rigs included, is worrysome.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.08.15 11:42:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Antonia Frak
So, how did interceptor pilots when there weren't speed and agility rigs around?


yes someone answer this. back in 2003 when there were no rigs, implants and velocity mods, what did ceptors do? ugh


ceptors didn't exist in 2003 Razz

Ceptors in 2006 however were rarely ever fitted with Overdrives; preferring things like Damage controls, damage mods, CPRs, Plate and even a Rep in some cases. Ceptors were much slower but a lot less fragile at the same time too and generally did more damage.

When the Nano Age arrived all that was ditched for as much speed as was humanly possible as the importance of it skyrocketed Confused


Depends on what the ceptors job was I think. I distinctly recall my claw doing 8-9kms early in 2007 in fleetfights where it was fitted for tackling enemy BS (and thus having to travel 150+km under hostile fire). That was also the age of the 10kms+ sabres that were doing the same kind of stuff.

I don't really see a problem here. A cheap T2 fitted ceptor without rigs will go faster than a T2 fitted HAC with rigs. Said HAC costs 200m+, the ceptor less than 20m. Relative speed only starts to break down a bit when you get to faction fits, although there I've as many 25kms crows as 15kms vagabonds. Both are very very rare and cost billions. Even so, if CCP wants to nerf them, I'd understand. But I firmly believe that the speed that ceptors currently can reach with a simple T2 fit should not be reduced at all.

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.08.15 11:58:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: El Mauru on 15/08/2008 11:58:28
I am personally not too worried about roles of the ceptors, though i didn't fully test them on the testserver yet.

IMHO ceptors are supposed to get to their target fast, lock it quickly, hold it in place for a bit, then die :-p

They'll still have their place in that (in the last part of it anyways) Laughing

- also, there now are Assault frigs which come as a bit more tankable variation and the good ol',err new e-war frigates so flying in small gangs of t-2 frigs might be "ZE NEW NANO" or fun at least Wink

It's solo-inties getting the end of the stick- something not really deserved but nothing I'll cry my eyes out for :-P

Rukaz
Posted - 2008.08.15 14:02:00 - [115]
 

Id like to see the sig radius bonus of interceptors changed slightly to "20% reduction in Microwarp Drive signature radius penalty per level".

Interceptors would still die but it would take a bit longer.

Just an idea

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.15 16:03:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: El Mauru


IMHO ceptors are supposed to get to their target fast, lock it quickly, hold it in place for a bit, then die :-p


A ship that dies for doing its job without being tackled is about as broken as it gets buddy.

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.08.16 06:42:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: El Mauru
Edited by: El Mauru on 15/08/2008 11:58:28
I am personally not too worried about roles of the ceptors, though i didn't fully test them on the testserver yet.


Please test them on Multiplicity (The speed changes have been rolled back in SISI to test the upcoming patch). Then come back. And tell us how much "I'm not worried about them"


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