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Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:45:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Butterless Toast
Edited by: Butterless Toast on 03/08/2008 23:39:48
I admit to having no tackling experience. So flame me away for that if you wish.

Seems to me all this crying is going on over MWD setups, though. Even as they are, MWDs have always had a built-in penalty to being tracked. Their signature radius increase massively increases their ability to be tracked over a ship using an AB, while only increasing speed by a factor of two or three.

Pulling numbers out of my butt, a MWD'ed interceptor will have around 150m sig radius moving at about 5 km/s (going by numbers people are giving for singularity now). An AB'ed interceptor will be roughly 25m and 2 km/s. The MWD setup only gives a bonus factor to speed of about 2.5, while giving a sig radius penalty factor of about 6. This means that interceptors running a MWD are more than twice as easy to track with turrets.

In addition, since fast ships actually have to acknowledge the existence of missiles on singularity now, having a really small sig radius will be a major MAJOR factor in how much damage they take from missiles. You can't just rely on escaping the explosion velocity. I don't have the resources on-hand at the moment to know if lower sig radius by a factor of 6 is enough to counteract the damage gained from a decrease in speed of about 2 explosion velocity falloffs, though...

EDIT: Assuming the missile guide is even close to accurate, MWD interceptors going 5 km/s should still be able to essentially ignore all non-precision missiles due to explosion velocity and velocity falloff ... this thread makes it sound like the situation is otherwise?


I've tested interceptors both with MWDs and ABs, and they are equally as dead. In fact, i've found AB inties to be much less survivable than MWD inties. Sig res reduction or not.

Butterless Toast
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:47:00 - [62]
 

-shrug-

ok then.

Guides and numbers are often not real life. I'll back out of the argument. :)

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:50:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Butterless Toast
Edited by: Butterless Toast on 03/08/2008 23:39:48
I admit to having no tackling experience. So flame me away for that if you wish.

Fair point.

Quote:
Seems to me all this crying is going on over MWD setups, though. Even as they are, MWDs have always had a built-in penalty to being tracked. Their signature radius increase massively increases their ability to be tracked over a ship using an AB, while only increasing speed by a factor of two or three.

AB interceptor will be lucky to break 2500m/s, MWD interceptor will hit 5,000 or so. The problem with the MWD is that essentially as you point out, the sig resolution increase is big enough to be hit by medium turrets and medium missiles. While this isn't as much with an AB interceptor, the sad reality is that an AB interceptor can't really... intercept much.

Quote:
Pulling numbers out of my butt, a MWD'ed interceptor will have around 150m sig radius moving at about 5 km/s (going by numbers people are giving for singularity now). An AB'ed interceptor will be roughly 25m and 2 km/s. The MWD setup only gives a bonus factor to speed of about 2.5, while giving a sig radius penalty factor of about 6. This means that interceptors running a MWD are more than twice as easy to track with turrets.

In addition, since fast ships actually have to acknowledge the existence of missiles on singularity now, having a really small sig radius will be a major MAJOR factor in how much damage they take from missiles. You can't just rely on escaping the explosion velocity. I don't have the resources on-hand at the moment to know if lower sig radius by a factor of 6 is enough to counteract the damage gained from a decrease in speed of about 2 explosion velocity falloffs, though...

EDIT: Assuming the missile guide is even close to accurate, MWD interceptors going 5 km/s should still be able to essentially ignore all non-precision missiles due to explosion velocity and velocity falloff ... this thread makes it sound like the situation is otherwise?


They are not. I was getting hit by regular cruises & heavy missiles. Yes, the damage was somewhat low (2.5-10.5 damage per missile, with 10.5 being with cruises Laughing), and precission lights, and javelin rockets were doing surprising amounts of damage (25-75 damage per hit). This is going top speed at the widest orbit possible, at around 22-25km orbit distance, around 4.7-5 k/s orbit speed.

Sadly, an AB interceptor hasn't proven to be any more survivable.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:01:00 - [64]
 

So basically, anti-interceptor-weapons are now effective vs interceptors?

And this is a terrible break of the game how?


Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:04:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Spurty
So basically, anti-interceptor-weapons are now effective vs interceptors?

And this is a terrible break of the game how?




Since when are heavy missiles, cruise missiles, and 220mm AC's "anti-interceptor-weapons" ?

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:06:00 - [66]
 

they are not, they are useless vs interceptors. You mean 'rockets and precision missiles' right? The ones that do 'full damage'.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:08:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Spurty
they are not, they are useless vs interceptors. You mean 'rockets and precision missiles' right? The ones that do 'full damage'.


In TQ, they are useless against interceptors. In SISI, as the changes stand, they are not. light missiles (not precission) and long-range rockets are doing almost full damage. Warrior II's are doing heavy damage. Hobgoblin IIs are doing decent damage. Precision cruise and Heavy missiles are doing damage. Try getting within 20km of a rupture and tell me that 220mm ac's are "useless".

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:16:00 - [68]
 

ACs are awesome at tracking, but I doubt they are doing 100% damage to you. I know my vagas 180s didn't hit for 100% damage when I was testing it.

Rockets and warriors were put into the game specifically to kill interceptors (small, fast ships).

Light missiles, only the precision should be hitting for close to 100% damage. I'll be on in a mo and come test some more with you.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:31:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 04/08/2008 03:33:11
Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 04/08/2008 03:32:37
Originally by: Spurty
ACs are awesome at tracking, but I doubt they are doing 100% damage to you. I know my vagas 180s didn't hit for 100% damage when I was testing it.

Rockets and warriors were put into the game specifically to kill interceptors (small, fast ships).

Light missiles, only the precision should be hitting for close to 100% damage. I'll be on in a mo and come test some more with you.


Destroyed: Crusader
Ship: Zealot
Weapon: Heavy Pulse Laser II
Damage Done: 1773

orbiting at 24K, trying to keep max transversal up. Once in trouble i tried to get out by spiraling out of range. Didn't happen.

Generally 1v1 results are decent, but still not quite good enough to do your job tackling in a fleet. Once you get into situations where 2-3 cruisers or BCs shooting at you, it's game over pretty quickly, no matter how much you try and plot your routes to maximize transvesal. it's pretty hard to tackle a specific ship without getting bbq'd by the others nearby.

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2008.08.04 04:50:00 - [70]
 

1. Ceptor were design to tackle and speed tank. They are not hunter killers. A BS pilot very rarly fears a ceptor killing him and for 25 mil can get a 29 km nuet and end the fight fast. One warp core stab and they are gone. if you eliminate these modules from your ship you are at risk of being tackled only. Most BS pilots know it is not the inty who will kill them but the ships that are jumping in.

2. The only solo kills i get in my ceptor are from pilots who dont outfit there ships properply or apply bad tactics. A poorly fitted ship should die and the pilot should learn from that death. Not a nerf to the pilot doing his job and fitting his ship out. I fly them to tackle for my team and this patch will destroy that ability.

3. OK the 10000 dollar ? have any of you tried to tackle with a ceptor doing over 20 km. Have any of you had your command ship leave system or com into system and screw up your orbit speeds. Going that fast may seem like alot of fun and effective but it is hard to play the game going that fast your orbit is not true and holding a point is tough as hell. Just watching the game hurts your eyes and make you dizzy LOL. All ceptor pilots know you have to slow down to maintain a good tackle. I no longer make my ships go that fast cause it cost to much and the risk to reward for doing my job to great. most of my ceptors do 11500 and that is fast enough and anything below that we struggle to fill our role.

I hope the DEV seriously take a long hard look at the roles of each ship and base the adjustments on that not on a catagorie CALLED NANOS.

As for the tackling HIC that seems like the only effective tackle ship left lol.

Pretty Ivan
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:40:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Ash Vincetti

They are not. I was getting hit by regular cruises & heavy missiles. Yes, the damage was somewhat low (2.5-10.5 damage per missile, with 10.5 being with cruises Laughing), and precission lights, and javelin rockets were doing surprising amounts of damage (25-75 damage per hit). This is going top speed at the widest orbit possible, at around 22-25km orbit distance, around 4.7-5 k/s orbit speed.

Sadly, an AB interceptor hasn't proven to be any more survivable.


Ash, if I follow your numbers correctly, these are your results: (please correct me if I am wrong)

Inty, MWD, 5km/s:
Javelin Rockets: 25 damage per hit
Precision Lights: 75 damage per hit
Precision Heavies: ???
Heavies: 2.5 damage per hit
Precision Cruise: ???
Cruise: 10 damage per hit

Do you have any numbers for an AB Inty?


Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.04 14:18:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Pretty Ivan
Originally by: Ash Vincetti

They are not. I was getting hit by regular cruises & heavy missiles. Yes, the damage was somewhat low (2.5-10.5 damage per missile, with 10.5 being with cruises Laughing), and precission lights, and javelin rockets were doing surprising amounts of damage (25-75 damage per hit). This is going top speed at the widest orbit possible, at around 22-25km orbit distance, around 4.7-5 k/s orbit speed.

Sadly, an AB interceptor hasn't proven to be any more survivable.


Ash, if I follow your numbers correctly, these are your results: (please correct me if I am wrong)

Inty, MWD, 5km/s:
Javelin Rockets: 25 damage per hit
Precision Lights: 75 damage per hit
Precision Heavies: ???
Heavies: 2.5 damage per hit
Precision Cruise: ???
Cruise: 10 damage per hit

Do you have any numbers for an AB Inty?




I need to look through my logs to double check. I think regular cruise were doing 2-3 per hit, and precision cruises were doing 8-15 or so, but I can't recall. The difference between heavies and precission heavies was negligible as well, going between 2.5 and 5 or so. Lights and Precision lights were heavier, rockets weren't hitting much, but javeling heavies were hitting for decent damage. Again, the numbers aren't accurate at this point, I think i need to go back to a controlled test to pull more accurate numbers once my orbits have stabilized.

Gordon Red
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:35:00 - [73]
 

That depends really on your missile skills and used ship!

Precision light missiles on a Caracal with assault missile launcher are deadly, even on the live server. I am glade that every noob fits named heavy missile launcher. :P

Also for the signature of an AB-Ceptor is the skill level very important. With the interceptor skill on 5 you will get less damage.

Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2008.08.04 20:36:00 - [74]
 

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=837732&page=1#13

This might offer a glimmer of hope.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.05 01:37:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
Today on sissi a crow speed tanked very well my Javelin Missiles. He was doing 4.5 K orbiting me and I was hitting for 2.4.

Turret bs cant hit you at all if you turn off the mwd and orbit the bs out side of web range. Missile boats most probably will require that you turn on the mwd but if a javelin was making the kind of damage I already presented I doubt a cruise missille will work better.



Get better skills, then test. 4 salvoed ares using EM precission lights (hint: javelins are NOT anti-frig weapon, they are LONG RANGE weapon).

Sirus Ade
Sinister Wolve's
Posted - 2008.08.05 23:57:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Sirus Ade on 05/08/2008 23:57:46
Why fix what's not broken?! As has been mentioned earlier a good neut will mess up a inty straight away. Fly the ship badly and it dies.

Flying an inty well is specialized and it's probably the first specialization that is available to new players as the skills aren't as hard to achieve as some of the others. Why take this away from a ship that is designed for the role.

Intys are very well balanced now, and the anti-inty inty such as the Taranis does a very good job of killing tackle intys, so again... why fix what's not broken??

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.06 01:12:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 06/08/2008 01:18:08
I'm still testing on SISI. I'm finding it somewhat survivable as long as you are only tackling one ship.

With the changes to the MWD and the MWD reactivation though, getting hit by a passing neut, or wandering through scram range by mistake is instant death. Not being able to reactivate your MWD for even a single burst means once you make a single mistake, you can't really recover from it.

And to the person that said "try getting hit by medium guns on sisi" - I've been killed quite easily by vagas, ruptures & zealots on the FFAs.

Under most battlefield conditions you end up getting popped pretty quickly. I'm sure that having a name that starts with "A" doesn't help my situation, but regardless, i'm finding it hard to actually go in and tackle anything when there are multiple targets, and as the targets increase, the chances of hitting a neut, a web, or a scram, or having your transversal drop enough to be hit by BSes gets higher and higher.

I'm not calling the end of the world just yet since SiSi can't really predict realistic battle conditions, but I am finding that as I continue to test, the probability of surviving an encounter in an interceptor as opposed to the same scenario flying a t1 frig, an EAF, or even a HIC gets lower and lower. We'll see what hapens in Tranq, but I predict either lower population of interceptors, or significantly altered roles and usages.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2008.08.06 02:48:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Ash Vincetti
Originally by: MenanceWhite
Yes, but he quoted that with missiles - did'nt the tests say that you die pretty fast from missiles even at 9km distance at post patch standard T2 inty fits? It did'nt really seem to make any sense.


For me it did. I think at 9km you don't take much damage if you manage to MWD full speed, but if you get webbed and/or scrammed, you pretty much pop. And at those ranges, that is pretty likely :(


When have you ever been able to orbit enemies in web range as an interceptor and not get owned? Am I smoking rocks or is this nothing new?

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.06 02:56:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
When have you ever been able to orbit enemies in web range as an interceptor and not get owned? Am I smoking rocks or is this nothing new?


pre-patch, you could coast through web range, and if you were smart about it, you could coast out of web range before you got splattered. No, you couldn't orbit closer than web range, but crossing web range for a few seconds wasn't lethal. With scramblers turning your MWD off, even a fraction of a second in scram range means that your MWD is instantly disabled, and the cooldown period is enough for the opposing ship to catch up, and finish the job.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2008.08.06 04:17:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Ash Vincetti

With scramblers turning your MWD off, even a fraction of a second in scram range means that your MWD is instantly disabled, and the cooldown period is enough for the opposing ship to catch up, and finish the job.



So just stay more than 9km away from cruisers/frigates who have a lock on you...Doesn't really seem like it should be an issue.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.06 04:45:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Ash Vincetti

With scramblers turning your MWD off, even a fraction of a second in scram range means that your MWD is instantly disabled, and the cooldown period is enough for the opposing ship to catch up, and finish the job.



So just stay more than 9km away from cruisers/frigates who have a lock on you...Doesn't really seem like it should be an issue.


Uh guess you never flown in nano gang before? Inless you are kiting(tailing whatever) whole enemy gang and they come 1 by 1 (read: newbs) its quite hard to keep eye on every enemy ship so it doesnt break from group and get within 9km.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.06 04:49:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 06/08/2008 04:50:52
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
So just stay more than 9km away from cruisers/frigates who have a lock on you...Doesn't really seem like it should be an issue.


And more than 24KM from any battleships that may potentially have neuts, and keep an eye on the transversal against any medium ships. And keep an eye on the directions that any cruisers/frigates/dictors may be going to see if they are on an intercept orbit with yours, and keep an eye on your total speed, and don't do any sudden turns that may get your velocity low enough to be popped by missiles or caught by drones. And keep an eye on the overview for Gallente Recons, or Minnie Recons, or Zealots (great tracking) or Eagles, or Munnins. Yup. Do all that and maybe you can survive the encounter. Yup. Just do that. it's easy.

Or, just get with the program and fly a HIC. It's currently training to IV, just FYI, that may end up being the best solution.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.06 08:39:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 06/08/2008 15:49:06
Most of the people concerned here have made their statements. Interceptors are a bit too hard hit as it stands on the current test server. There are too many counters to small ships available to too many medium and large class ships, to allow interceptors to do their job properly.

The final version, is, of course, up to CCP. As it stands, a group of battleships without any support can fend off an interceptor simply by deploying drones (all battleships have at least 20m3 drone bay) and having 1x heavy neut. That's enough. There is no need for support fleets.

If there is a support fleet, most medium turrets can track an interceptor MWDing, due to the sig resolution penalty, and they can definitely track it at base speed if they are smart about it.

The existing counters (recon ships in general) are still effective at either neutralizing or killing interceptors. Doubly so with the speed reduction.

Existing t2 HACS & some t1 cruisers & BCs (munnin, zealot, rupture, hurricane), can easily track an approaching interceptor and pop it before it gets under their guns.

The tank of interceptors is pretty non-existant (42 DPS sustained in a malediction, if you dedicate two rig slots and a low slot to capacitor mods, and use an AB), and not enough to see an interceptor survive a prolonged encounter, much less serve in the capacity of intercepting ships in a skirmish situation.

To be honest, i'm not entirely sure what the solution to this should be. Perhaps an overall decrease in the ability of medium and large ships to field medium and light drones that are effective at hitting interceptor sized targets may be part of the solution. The fact that a battleship can, effectively, not only drive away, but actually kill an interceptor with ease, is a bit broken. (neut, once the MWD disables, the interceptor is drone chowder, and the interceptor is unable to re-engage the MWD for 10 seconds)

As it is, there is no real role for destroyers, assault frigates and cruisers in a large fleet. Mostly due to the fact that in sufficient numbers, a group of battleships is able to deal with all three of their lower class of opponents with impunity. A group of 20 battleships is more powerful than a group of 10 battleships and 10 t1 cruisers, or 10 battleships, 5 cruisers, and 5 frigates. The sheer number of drones they can deploy is enough to take care of most support vessels of cruiser size and below.

Thank you, to all those that listened, tested, and provided constructive feedback. Hopefully now CCP will listen as well, and do something about the interceptor class. It doesn't have to be necessarily a return to their previous speed, or even a change in speed. Our concern is not the current speeds, but the current speeds combined with the available counters. The number of counters to interceptors have grown, while the interceptors themselves have not gained means to deal with those counters.

That means that with the current changes, the interceptor pilot is at an all-low survivability factor when tackling in fleet vs fleet situations. Hopefully this will be looked into.

Gordon Red
Posted - 2008.08.06 09:18:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Gordon Red on 06/08/2008 09:20:16

Originally by: Ash Vincetti
To be honest, i'm not entirely sure what the solution to this should be. Perhaps an overall decrease in the ability of medium and large ships to field medium and light drones that are effective at hitting interceptor sized targets may be part of the solution. The fact that a battleship can, effectively, not only drive away, but actually kill an interceptor with ease, is a bit broken. (neut, once the MWD disables, the interceptor is drone chowder, and the interceptor is unable to re-engage the MWD for 10 seconds)


a) increase the signaure resulution of small (=> 40m) and medium drones (=> 125m)
b) decrease the mass of an interceptor (=> more speed and better acceleration)
c) make the damage ceptors (4/2/4-ceptors, don't know about Gallente) immune to Scrambler-MWD-disruption

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.08.06 16:00:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Gordon Red
a) increase the signaure resulution of small (=> 40m) and medium drones (=> 125m)
b) decrease the mass of an interceptor (=> more speed and better acceleration)
c) make the damage ceptors (4/2/4-ceptors, don't know about Gallente) immune to Scrambler-MWD-disruption


That may be enough for a start. We'll just have to see what happens once the changes hit TQ i guess.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.06 16:29:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: marakor on 06/08/2008 16:29:36
Id say the role of ceptors after the patch will be similar to the dictor after it was nerfed...death.

Although at least you could fit a cloak to your dic (giggles at juvenile imagery) or jump thorough the gate after bubbling up and stand a chance of surviving.

Ceptor pilots your screwed.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2008.08.06 19:58:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Ash Vincetti

With scramblers turning your MWD off, even a fraction of a second in scram range means that your MWD is instantly disabled, and the cooldown period is enough for the opposing ship to catch up, and finish the job.



So just stay more than 9km away from cruisers/frigates who have a lock on you...Doesn't really seem like it should be an issue.


Uh guess you never flown in nano gang before? Inless you are kiting(tailing whatever) whole enemy gang and they come 1 by 1 (read: newbs) its quite hard to keep eye on every enemy ship so it doesnt break from group and get within 9km.


How is this any different than things are right now with 90% webs? You still can't keep an eye on people and its not guaranteed (unless you've got a really expensive fit) that you'll be able to coast out of range if they are as fast as you are.

What exactly do you think is reasonable? Inty's shouldn't be hittable by ships fit specifically to attack them? You know what you have to do to avoid getting killed so do it and if its a bunch of neut domi's then avoid them - that's not any different than usual. Just like if I'm flying a thorax I don't hang around against 3x brutix.

Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2008.08.06 21:03:00 - [88]
 

I guess you haven't read the thread. The difference is that it's *extremely* difficult to survive in interceptors against *one* target. Multiple targets are a death sentence. And that's the problem. There's nothing wrong with risk. Risk is welcome. If you couldn't kill the ship, why would anyone fly anything else? The problem is now they are *so* vulnerable, the probability of losing it is so high, most people would rather just hop in t1 frigs to accomplish the same thing. I don't know about you, but if I buy a t2 ship that doesn't insure for anything at all and is fully fit in T2 at a minumim, I kinda want to go into a fight with a reasonable expectation of making it out. Current conditions on sisi do not allow that.

I'm not ruling out pilot error. If you fly dumb, you lose your ship. That's the game. But for an interceptor to be threatened AT ALL by a battleship not fit specifically to counter it is wrong. For an interceptor to die to a hurricane after *15 seconds* is wrong. Unless a cruiser or BC is fitting frig size guns or fitted to the gills with tracking computers and enhancers, there's no reason it should be able to track an interceptor. Unless, of course, it fits a web that the interceptor pilot flies into. An interceptor needs to survive against a ship of that class least the amount of time it takes someone to undock and warp to it. Which, is about 45 seconds, minimum. The way things are, you just won't see interceptors around as much. They cost too much to die as easily as they do under current conditions on sis. If the changes make it to TQ, you'll see interceptors about as often as you see interdictors, as someone just mentioned. Unacceptable.

Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:26:00 - [89]
 

I don't even know why CCP nerfed the interdictors, no one was whining about them at all. Since the nerf I can't count the number of times FCs have had to offer to cover dictor loses from corp funds just to get someone to bring one since they are now just flying coffins.

One of many difficult to understand decisions by CCP that leaves me pessimistic about the future tbh.

Gordon Red
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:24:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
What exactly do you think is reasonable? Inty's shouldn't be hittable by ships fit specifically to attack them? You know what you have to do to avoid getting killed so do it and if its a bunch of neut domi's then avoid them - that's not any different than usual. Just like if I'm flying a thorax I don't hang around against 3x brutix.


The point is that we are dieing even vs ships that aren't fitted vs ceptors!

- A Hurricane with ACs isn't fitted vs ceptors in the first place, that's their NORMAL PvP-setup.
- A ratting Caracal with T1-heavies is also not thought to be the ceptor killer. => An assault missile Caracal with light precisions would be anticeptor, but that's not needed!

Reduce the mass => resulting in greater speed even with the the 500%MWDs and we get also better acceleration back


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