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Rawne Karrde
Bre-X Interstellar Shipyards
Ejectile Dysfunction
Posted - 2008.07.31 02:11:00 - [31]
 

I fail to see how nano's helped defeat "blobs" when the enemy were bringing 40-60 of them in a gang together... oh wait thats a blob isn't it?

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2008.07.31 02:12:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Rawne Karrde
I fail to see how nano's helped defeat "blobs" when the enemy were bringing 40-60 of them in a gang together... oh wait thats a blob isn't it?


your enemy is representative of the entire population i take it?

Eleanor DeAquitaine
Gallente
Sirius Business.
Posted - 2008.07.31 03:12:00 - [33]
 

If you go test it, it's rather obvious that this patch isn't even INTENDED as a fix to nanos, it's intended as a fix to avoid dealing with their borked physics engine which apparently can't handle speeds over 6K.

That's why they are nerfing literally EVERYTHING. The end result is that nano fit ships will be just as godlike as they are now, because non speed fit ships will be FAR SLOWER AND LESS MANEUVERABLE than now!

If you ask me this is a fraud.

If 10K cruisers were a problem with speed, why did my Raven need to go from 144ms to 117? Why did my Crow, which is supposed to be a member of the fastest class of ship in EVE have to lose 40% of its speed? Why does my BS have to turn slower than an asteroid?

Too much nerf on that which didn't need it, which results in the end in too little nerf on the actual problem!

With this HUGE kick to the balls on speed and maneuverability across the board, people who nanofit will be even MORE powerful than before. They will just be running at 4-5K instead of 10K. Against opponents who lost half their align time and 1/3rd their speed.


Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2008.07.31 03:14:00 - [34]
 

You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.

gtcsellalt
Posted - 2008.07.31 03:36:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: gtcsellalt on 31/07/2008 03:36:11
ss

kryptteacher
Posted - 2008.07.31 03:57:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Eleanor DeAquitaine
If you go test it, it's rather obvious that this patch isn't even INTENDED as a fix to nanos, it's intended as a fix to avoid dealing with their borked physics engine which apparently can't handle speeds over 6K.

That's why they are nerfing literally EVERYTHING. The end result is that nano fit ships will be just as godlike as they are now, because non speed fit ships will be FAR SLOWER AND LESS MANEUVERABLE than now!

If you ask me this is a fraud.

If 10K cruisers were a problem with speed, why did my Raven need to go from 144ms to 117? Why did my Crow, which is supposed to be a member of the fastest class of ship in EVE have to lose 40% of its speed? Why does my BS have to turn slower than an asteroid?

Too much nerf on that which didn't need it, which results in the end in too little nerf on the actual problem!

With this HUGE kick to the balls on speed and maneuverability across the board, people who nanofit will be even MORE powerful than before. They will just be running at 4-5K instead of 10K. Against opponents who lost half their align time and 1/3rd their speed.




i think nerfing it so the ships work within the physics limits is a good idea. other wise it is broke. did they nerf missiles/rockets as well?

Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2008.07.31 03:57:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: HankMurphy
Originally by: Zeba
Guerrilla warfare is striking at targets where your enemys blob is not. You do not need to have a hac that goes 7000ms to do that.


CCP Nozh is that you??? Surprised


i guess not. but he is right anyway

Steel Tigeress
Gallente
R0GUE ENTITY
Posted - 2008.07.31 04:43:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Synapse Archae
I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.

Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...

Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.


Thats actually really easy. Its in most peoples nature to take the easiest path possible, with the least amount of risk.... regardless if they know its right or not.

What you are asking for is for CCP to change human nature.... CCP cant do that, so they are nerfing "the easiest path, with the least ammount of risk" instead. nano's.

Synapse Archae
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.07.31 05:14:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 05:15:05
Originally by: Steel Tigeress
Originally by: Synapse Archae
I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.

Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...

Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.


Thats actually really easy. Its in most peoples nature to take the easiest path possible, with the least amount of risk.... regardless if they know its right or not.

What you are asking for is for CCP to change human nature.... CCP cant do that, so they are nerfing "the easiest path, with the least ammount of risk" instead. nano's.


No, I'm actually asking CCP to make good reasons not to blob. Blobbing is the easiest path, with the least risk. Nano ships have huge risks. Every nano pilot I know is broke from replacing ridiculously costly ships. Nano pilots spend time actually TRAINING in their ships, and we pour huge amounts of SP into it as well. Its a gigantic risk to fly nano. We do it because otherwise in 0.0 you blob or be blobbed.

Blob is currently the easist path. CCP needs to introduce things that make blobbing more difficult, and make smaller gangs the easist path.
You'd see nanos disappear pretty quickly, actually, as soon as we all realized we could have fun again for less than 250m per ship.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.31 05:28:00 - [40]
 

Speed sure seemed to make blobs more popular actually.

Synapse Archae
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:00:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 05:59:58
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Speed sure seemed to make blobs more popular actually.


Who in the world are you, and who is "reavers corp"? Have you even been to 0.0?

Blobs have been popular since alliances first came together, years and years and years ago. They only get worse with time, as the big powerblocs get bigger, and CCP ads more game elements (poswar, cyno jammers, capital ships) to encourage blobs.

Steel Tigeress
Gallente
R0GUE ENTITY
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:10:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Synapse Archae
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 05:15:05
Originally by: Steel Tigeress
Originally by: Synapse Archae
I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.

Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...

Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.


Thats actually really easy. Its in most peoples nature to take the easiest path possible, with the least amount of risk.... regardless if they know its right or not.

What you are asking for is for CCP to change human nature.... CCP cant do that, so they are nerfing "the easiest path, with the least ammount of risk" instead. nano's.


No, I'm actually asking CCP to make good reasons not to blob. Blobbing is the easiest path, with the least risk. Nano ships have huge risks. Every nano pilot I know is broke from replacing ridiculously costly ships. Nano pilots spend time actually TRAINING in their ships, and we pour huge amounts of SP into it as well. Its a gigantic risk to fly nano. We do it because otherwise in 0.0 you blob or be blobbed.

Blob is currently the easist path. CCP needs to introduce things that make blobbing more difficult, and make smaller gangs the easist path.
You'd see nanos disappear pretty quickly, actually, as soon as we all realized we could have fun again for less than 250m per ship.


I Agree that blob fights suck, with the slideshow graphics and such. And there does need to be somthing done about it.

But nano's wernt it. Like the previous poster said, Nano gangs promoted anyone not nanoing to blob up as it was the only defence.

Synapse Archae
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:18:00 - [43]
 

Quote:

I Agree that blob fights suck, with the slideshow graphics and such. And there does need to be somthing done about it.

But nano's wernt it. Like the previous poster said, Nano gangs promoted anyone not nanoing to blob up as it was the only defence.


So we should all just hunker down and accept PVP that is boring and soul-killing, and hope CCP comes up with something better? Who wants to put up with a crappy game when all fun alternatives are gone? Speed tanks are simultaneously one of the last fun mechanics, and one of the only counters to blobbing, and one of the few reasonable roaming tactics, and the risk vs reward isnt even broken. If anything, its too risky to fly nano. Nobody does it for the money, I can assure you of that. Every nano pilot I know is broke.

Take that away, and how many players is that "wait for something better (TRUST US!)" going to cost? Why should we put up with "blob online" while CCP thinks of something better?

Fix blobs.

Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:41:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Kage Psychodin on 31/07/2008 06:43:09
Don't worry. when the real capital ship nerf thats a rehash and toned down of the super cap ship nerf that removes doomsdays, Blob online will start to dissipate quite quickly. Not from people leaving. The second capital ships once again become a "you bring it out for select encounters, not as your regular ship" measure, and slow aligning BSes become the typical top power combat ship and everyone feels the weight of slow aligning, non-cyno multi-system 20 jump trips again, with more vulnerable ships, people will start to fly other things. Likewise you will to.

The end to Nanoships and capships and blobs online is breaking them all one by one. everybody has to give a little power back.

(edited for two big typos.)

Synapse Archae
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:44:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Kage Psychodin
Edited by: Kage Psychodin on 31/07/2008 06:43:09
Don't worry. when the real capital ship nerf thats a rehash and toned down of the super cap ship nerf that removes doomsdays, Blob online will start to dissipate quite quickly. Not from people leaving. The second capital ships once again become a "you bring it out for select encounters, not as your regular ship" measure, and slow aligning BSes become the typical top power combat ship and everyone feels the weight of slow aligning, non-cyno multi-system 20 jump trips again, with more vulnerable ships, people will start to fly other things. Likewise you will to.

The end to Nanoships and capships and blobs online is breaking them all one by one. everybody has to give a little power back.

(edited for two big typos.)


Quoting another "just wait for crappy gameplay to get better" post.

Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:48:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Synapse Archae

Quoting another "just wait for crappy gameplay to get better" post.

I may ask then what do you think should happen. You seem to complain, but then what is the real solution here that you seem to know in the back of your mind. Don't be afraid to say it.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:02:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Synapse Archae
I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.

Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...

Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.


Because the Web is overpowered, that's why. Nobody wanted to get in webrange. AFs were pretty much useless and the only use of the Ceptor was it's cost-effectiveness.

HACs were king because they were able to remain outside webrange whilst dealing plenty of damage, often at speeds where turrets, missiles and drones were all rendered ineffective. Vagabonds were often going faster than a lot of Ceptors (particually the Crow and Taranis) and were able to eat them alive. If you could afford a Vaga and Polycarbs there was virtually no reason to fly an Inty.

Now, Speed got nerfed; yes, but Webs got nerfed much more. This is to encourage use of smaller ships (like, AFs and Inties) as well as closer-range fits that make fitting something resembling a tank a viable option.

Napro
Caldari
Simplistic Syndicate
Cha0s Theory
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:15:00 - [48]
 

fit a bomb launcher and go break up those blobs

Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:19:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Napro
fit a bomb launcher and go break up those blobs

As a heavily caldari missile pilot and being the understanding of all things that go boom in the night, I bequeath to you a boot to the head. No. Seriously. have you seen those things? Not only is their signature radius so big that you can nearly instant lock them in a battleship, but they are so vulnerable they can be shot down with ease. the only chance for a bomb to get off, is in major lag.

AND then it barely SCRATCHES the tanks of a well tanked battleship, and even then it costs too much for a one shot wonder that wouldn't even kill a heavy assault ship with its base resistances for certain bombs.
did I mention you're right there, and that in a few second you're going to be webbed, disrupted, ship popped and possibly podded by your own bomb?

Caldrion Dosto
Excrutiating Dirge
Merciless.
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:40:00 - [50]
 

I Dont see how webs have been nerfed.


Everyone fit a web and a scrambler.

Now scramblers are going to shut dowm MWDs as well as scraming you... Thats fun..


To Nozh: How is Guerilla warfare against a larger oponent work if i cant scramble some one without being forced to stand still (due to mwd shutting of), There will be plenty of enemies i cant scramble at the same time, thus they will go at MWD speeds so i wont be able to get away even if i fit both mwd and an afterburner.


So conclusion: Large gangs will always win vs a guerilla force.

Blobbing online just became much much worse.


It will be much more cost effectibve to bring a BS then a Hac with these changes........

Slugfests here we go..... But the sad part is that the server will never ever gonna be able to handle it, way to go CCP.

Synapse Archae
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:47:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 07:58:07
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 07:57:20
Originally by: Kage Psychodin
Originally by: Synapse Archae

Quoting another "just wait for crappy gameplay to get better" post.

I may ask then what do you think should happen. You seem to complain, but then what is the real solution here that you seem to know in the back of your mind. Don't be afraid to say it.


Done:

1. Boost Assault frigates tank and speed, not enough to go faster or tackle better than inties but enough that they do WAY more damage and tank much better via bonuses. Consider a class of destroyers used for roaming as well, along with dictors.

2. Make bombs cheaper, easier to deploy (laser guided to a target maybe?) and higher damage. Also make bombers faster and warp farther so they can keep up with normal roaming gangs.

3. Completely rework sov warfare into objectives that get harder to fill the more people you put in one place. This cant be fit in a few lines so I won't try here.

4. Update black ops to make them more survivable, and perhaps increase the list of ships they can jump in.

5. If the high end of speed (6k and above, perhaps?)is still an issue we want to fix, then nerf just the snake implants (and related high end implants) plus boosters and t2 polycarbons. No one tops 3k without those unless they are in an inty, and thats by design anyway.

Those will first add viable options for guerilla warfare (AFs and destroyer groups, and black ops/recons), and second they will place penalties on having all your eggs in one slow moving fleet-basket (bombs, leaving pos infrastructure open to attack).

There will be more diversity in roamers, and nanos will become just another tactic, when there are fewer blobs and more (cheaper!) options for roaming. As a bonus, the bombs might actually be made useful against the nanos.

Lily Cole
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:15:00 - [52]
 

Go back to wow

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:30:00 - [53]
 

I think it is time for a stealth bomber Bomb boost, because that could be guerilla if ever there were guerillas.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:34:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Guerrilla warfare is striking at targets where your enemys blob is not. You do not need to have a hac that goes 7000ms to do that.


Well, for one thing, you will need a fast ship to approach and tackle a target unless you want to reduce PVP to gatecamping. Then you need to be able to move quickly between systems in order not to alert the enemy and give him time to prepare.

So either you need a bunch of frigs with you always (then you might as well replace nano gangs with frig gangs, because noone wants to be the tackler guy who deals no damage and pops first), or Guerilla warfare is over, unless you think that hot dropping should replace nano gangs (=> cyno jammers).


Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:34:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Synapse Archae
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 05:59:58
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Speed sure seemed to make blobs more popular actually.


Who in the world are you


He is Anubis Xian, 6th incarnation of my ingame main since 2004.

Quote:
, and who is "reavers corp"?


Reavers is just a corporation I created over 4 years ago, that I've been holding for the period of time that I decide pvp on the alliance level is too annoying to bother with anymore. Guess that time has come and gone.

Quote:
Have you even been to 0.0?


I've been to regions when they were owned by alliances that ceased to exist before the IGA feature even came into being. My first ever foray into 0.0 space involved running 3 SA blockades, 2 CA blockades, and giggling at a Xetic fleet made up of mostly cruisers all while flying a Stabber.

Quote:
Blobs have been popular since alliances first came together, years and years and years ago.


I know this.

Quote:
They only get worse with time, as the big powerblocs get bigger, and CCP ads more game elements (poswar, cyno jammers, capital ships) to encourage blobs.


The blobs expand to fill the capacity of the technology. If the server can handle 300, why bring only 100?

The way to break up blobs has nothing to do with speed, it has to do with collision and line of fire mechanics.

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:37:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Spaztick
You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Goes to the sig, this wisdom of the modern age.! Laughing

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:40:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
I think it is time for a stealth bomber Bomb boost, because that could be guerilla if ever there were guerillas.


Combine them in to a group with recons and black ops and you already have a viable guerilla force.

From the Wiki Definition:
"Guerrilla tactics are based on intelligence, ambush, deception, sabotage, and espionage"

Does that sound like nano-ships, or something else?

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:45:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
I think it is time for a stealth bomber Bomb boost, because that could be guerilla if ever there were guerillas.


Combine them in to a group with recons and black ops and you already have a viable guerilla force.

From the Wiki Definition:
"Guerrilla tactics are based on intelligence, ambush, deception, sabotage, and espionage"

Does that sound like nano-ships, or something else?
We're certainly lacking in intelligence around here. Laughing

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:14:00 - [59]
 

The real problem is the attitude of Nano Pilots.

I have seen some real wrong assumptions, as PvPler are only Nano-Pilots and Carebears fly everything else. Right?

Because people spend training and ISK to become a Nano***, all those who spend even more training and lots of ISK to become an excellent BS Pilot or something other then Nano-should be screwed right?

I would like to ask the above poster to go back to Counterstrike, because you never really got, what eve was about. Yes it is a PvP Game, but it is not Counterstrike in space.

The real problem is, that Nano Pilots look great on killboards. They are expensive, but give you great stats on killboard, because you can in most cases easily run away.

Is it that difficult, you can still fight, you can still win against superior numbers by using tactics. An overheated MWD and a nanoed-Butt does not equal tactics. You will have to think a bit more about your ship, your setups and what ships to bring, since the cookie cutter nano is nerfed.

PvP will be a bit more like in 2005/2006 without ridiculous speeds and I welcome this change.

Enjoy EVE, quit whining or GTFO.

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:36:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

PvP will be a bit more like in 2005/2006 without ridiculous speeds and I welcome this change.

Enjoy EVE, quit whining or GTFO.



lol wut?

i remeber back in 2005, my ferox went 5km/s

and was only good BC because it used to spamm missiles from the speeds.

Altho, i agree, speed nerf was long overdue since introduction of rigs and t2 modules.


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