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Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:37:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 20:48:18
I have a simple and elegant solution that would address the proposed speed problem. One in which I believe the player base with accept with out too much fuss and it still will address the speed issue definitively.

I’m not sure how knowledgeable you are with aeronautical terminology so I will keep things simple.

I propose there be a new facet introduced to all ships. (Not just hull based) And that new facet should be called Vne (Velocity Never Exceed). This is an actual aircraft rating in the real world. In layman terms it’s a speed at which you start causing abnormal stress/damage to an aircraft’s hull. IE if you exceed the Vne too much for too long the wings will rip off or cause other catastrophic damage. By instituting this new dynamic you will be able to effectively kill the “ludicrous” speed as noted in the blog. With out the huge sweeping changes that are on SISI now.

As an idea how this would work: say a ship has a Vne rating of 5k/ms. Now if that same ship exceeds that rating it would start incurring hull damage. Now the amount of damage incurred VRS the amount of speed over the rated Vne is of course variable. And just as in real ships/aircraft some hulls are built more heavily then others.

Since this new dynamic is based in real life most every one will understand it and accept it. And bluntly it just makes sense that this is how things should work. Just as in real life: sure you can strap a MX missile to your back, nothing is stopping you. But you’re not going to live long if you fire that bad boy off.

But an important effect of instituting a change like this is you can leave all the modules and implants at their current nominal values. So people with snakes in their heads or people that have a lot of time in trained skills don’t wined up having their efforts completely destroyed. Of course no one is ever happy at the prospect of having their efforts completely destroyed by the institution of a new policy.


I think most every one would agree that this would not kill small gang warfare, but rather it would add a new dynamic to the necessary piloting skills to be successful. Since speed tanked ships don’t fit reps having even a small amount of hull/armor damage is a huge factor in the decision making process of any one piloting a nano/speed tanked ship. Conversely people might actually fit remote hull repairers to their ships for after combat repairs. And since these modules are very power thirsty, I would not think they would/could be use them wile still in combat. And I would bet most people would acknowledge that remote hull reps are almost completely absent from roaming speed gangs.


MOST importantly in the end analyses making a change like this adds new decision VRS penalty choice that every pilot would have to make. Yes people would be able to go at “ludicrous” speeds, but NOT FOR LONG and not with out a PENALTY. And as an added benefit since you are not making a huge change to the game dynamic. So I would expect the resulting “UNEXPECTED result of X nerf” would be greatly diminished.


NOT TO MENTION YOU WOULD NOT HAVE A HUGE PORTION OF YOU’RE PLAYER BASE UP IN ARMS. Happy customers are repeat customers!

P'uck
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:43:00 - [2]
 

I wouldnt call that a simple and elegant solution, because it opens a whole new can of worms, but boy it sounds interesting Laughing

One could finally be that ubar awesome spacepilot, that is risking his life and his ship to get to the exhaust ports at the size of a wombrat in time.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:45:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 20:47:39


Think of it as just like over heating a MWD. It becomes damaged. No diffrent here just its the hull and speed related. And the mechanic to do this is already there with over loading.


Its more simple that nerfing every thing else. LOL Cool

P'uck
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:48:00 - [4]
 

Yeah, I know, I understood you just fine. And it sure SOUNDS fun, sacrificing your hull to go that wee bit faster... a gamble, really, because the other side will see your hull burning away and shoot you as well.

Also you could introduce modules that increase your VNE, but still... I have no clue if its a BETTER solution. It just sounds really entertaining ...

Hatch
Minmatar
4 Marketeers
Rura-Penthe
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:49:00 - [5]
 

one problem with your analigy(sp?) in aeronotics, you have drag which causes resistance and thus heat. in a vacume such as space, these limitations are not there. with a constant thrust, you would continuosly accelerate with no resistance (see ion drive under developement at nasa/jpl), which is not how eve operates. there is a cap on how fast you can go but still no resistances to limit your speed. it's paradoxical, but programs are based on predefined varriables that enable it to function in a game. eve is not a simulation, unfortunately because it would seriously kick ass if it were.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:55:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 21:07:03
Actualy Eve does have a sudo drag coefficient. Example why does your aligment time go up in proportion to your forward velocity? there is no drag in space. So your aligment time is related to your mass and moment of inertia. In space forward motion hould have no effect in this. But in EVE is does.

However a Vne doesn't have to be drag related. It can be a function of heat, stress and any other number of contributing factors.

Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.28 22:31:00 - [7]
 

Interesting idea, but rather than taking hull damage for exceeding max velocity I would just code it to turn off all active modules at that speed. There are ways in game that you can get uber-bumped to just plain stupid speeds, and while losing a ship in such a way might be funny as hell, it could get old fast.

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.07.28 22:57:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
Interesting idea, but rather than taking hull damage for exceeding max velocity I would just code it to turn off all active modules at that speed. There are ways in game that you can get uber-bumped to just plain stupid speeds, and while losing a ship in such a way might be funny as hell, it could get old fast.


Actually, if you were to do it similar to heat mechanics, with a timer (so the 1st 10 seconds you don't take damage, but after that, if you are still past the threshhold you begin taking increasing damage as time goes by over the threshhold), that might actually work. If you get bumped past that speed, you should be getting back to "normal" within that timeframe anyway.

This is a really interesting, and rather elegant solution. This would allow ships to go much faster than their theoretical limits, but start taking stress damage to the hull, and probably heat damage to the modules as well. This allows for tradeoffs (a full snake set means that ppl don't have to dedicate all the low-slots to more speed, for example), and still maintains the current mechanics, which are actually quite good in terms of agility / inertia / mass.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:03:00 - [9]
 

Well……………almost 200 reviews of this thread, and no one has jumped in to tell me how stupid I am and how this would never work!!


Hmmmm …….. Might be onto something here.


I will be the first to say there would need to be some details that would need to be hammered out.

Such as- What about people that are logging back in to the game wile not in an alliance POS. // well you could code a delay to the Vne effect when some one just logs in. That would take care of that nicely.

And such as- What about caps that jump in on top of one another? (BTW both caps would be bumped pretty fast) my opinion would be to let them both suffer damage. Since the cyno pilot was dumb enough to pop it in the middle of the enemy cap fleet. (Knowing full well about the Vne effect beforehand) Once again calling for skill.


I think the best part of this solution is, it side steps all of the issues of balancing Modules/Skills/Gang effects/Implants completely. So no one loses out here. Every one can fit their ships how ever they want/trained for. And it doesn’t make a difference because once you exceed Vne you take damage.

On a side note POPING you OWN ship from going to fast is not something any one is going to do very often. <Evil Grin> But will sure make for some funny comms!!!

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:05:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Willow Whisp

This is a really interesting, and rather elegant solution.






Thank you

Ushatuhkwa Kaeshe
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:05:00 - [11]
 

obligatory "SHE CANNAE TAKE IT ANY LONGER JIM! SHE'S GIVIN' IT ALL SHE'S GOT!!!"

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:16:00 - [12]
 

I msut say it won 't work. I worked ian another space ship mmo in past. And we tried to implement that. The problem is.. you are going at your max speed.. then a very fast ship comes from behind you and bump you. Now you are goign faster and taking a LOT of damage. Or worse.. someone changes the password of the POS, you are ejected at 20 km/s and dies because of this damage.

Tomic
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:19:00 - [13]
 

One thing that no-one has spotted... What happens when you goto warp? These speeds are created by a micro-WARP-drive, which already have a "rated" speed (the boost amount). Ok you might be going several km/s, but as soon as you click warp you speed up to several hundred million km/s. That is a lot of damage to explain away.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:20:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
I msut say it won 't work. I worked ian another space ship mmo in past. And we tried to implement that. The problem is.. you are going at your max speed.. then a very fast ship comes from behind you and bump you. Now you are goign faster and taking a LOT of damage. Or worse.. someone changes the password of the POS, you are ejected at 20 km/s and dies because of this damage.



Please read my posts I have already adressed that.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:22:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 23:24:30

Originally by: Tomic
One thing that no-one has spotted... What happens when you goto warp? These speeds are created by a micro-WARP-drive, which already have a "rated" speed (the boost amount). Ok you might be going several km/s, but as soon as you click warp you speed up to several hundred million km/s. That is a lot of damage to explain away.


I dont think any one is realy worried about warp speeds. Only normal space speeds

But to address your post you would INSTA POP. Assuming Vne is applied to FTL travle. Which OBVIOUSLY it wouldent be.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:47:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 23:53:06
Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 23:52:31

Actually I just though of a couple of important things regarding making Vne a reality in EvE.

#1 since speed could be just as deadly as your opposing opponent. We would need a better way of regulating our speeds in the UI. AKA a better throttle as it were. And I would suggest a multi segmented, multi colored BAR/GRAPH, with a specific color for throttle position and a separate color for actual speed. And of course any throttle settings/speed over Vne would be colored RED. I dont think it would take much to do this since the mechanics already exist in game for this. But as it stands now they are never used its always full throttle or nothing right now.

This would really change the dynamics of flying a ship. Because now all people do is
#1 target ship
#2 hit the orbit button
#3 spam f1-f8
#4 wait for the person to die or bug out


#2 doing some thing like this would REALY put a crimp on “jump gate 2’s” claim to fame!! That is to say this would be a much more pilot intensive game.


My god I hope some one from CCP reads this thread

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.07.28 23:56:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/07/2008 23:57:18
Originally by: Rezaa
[
As an idea how this would work: say a ship has a Vne rating of 5k/ms. Now if that same ship exceeds that rating it would start incurring hull damage. Now the amount of damage incurred VRS the amount of speed over the rated Vne is of course variable. And just as in real ships/aircraft some hulls are built more heavily then others.



VNE? In Space? 5km/s?

Real life comparisons are bad, particularly when comparing spaceships and aircraft... next you'll say they get heated from friction too Laughing

We just need to see how the changes pan out in actual gameplay.

Also, the throttle/etc mechanics wouldn't work in EvE. This isn't a flight sim.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:02:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 29/07/2008 00:18:16
Edited by: MotherMoon on 29/07/2008 00:04:52
I bought this up before and the nano ***s all attacked me saying "OMG it's not fair! I hate your idea it's terrible"


in fact check it out I think you'll like the part of my idea that was different. When you go over the speed your proposing, instead of hull damage,your heat sinks already in the game I was thinking the medium at 50% of normal and lows, start heating up and damaging modules.

but yeah what do you think, then modules would shut down if you kept going to fast to much.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:15:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Rezaa on 29/07/2008 00:19:14

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/07/2008 23:57:18
Originally by: Rezaa
[
As an idea how this would work: say a ship has a Vne rating of 5k/ms. Now if that same ship exceeds that rating it would start incurring hull damage. Now the amount of damage incurred VRS the amount of speed over the rated Vne is of course variable. And just as in real ships/aircraft some hulls are built more heavily then others.



VNE? In Space? 5km/s?

Real life comparisons are bad, particularly when comparing spaceships and aircraft... next you'll say they get heated from friction too Laughing

We just need to see how the changes pan out in actual gameplay.

Also, the throttle/etc mechanics wouldn't work in EvE. This isn't a flight sim.



No Vne in space huh? Why not? You already have speed limits. With AB's and MWD's when in actuality in space you would keep accelerating. You don’t have drag in space and yet some thing similar is in EVE. See above posts. No one will be able to argue a direct link

A better throttle wouldn’t work HUH? You already have one now. And I would bet you never touch it.

My suggestion is based in logical comparison so that people can understand it. Not a direct comparison. Obviously no one is going to compare airplanes to space craft in a direct sense. (Although they share some operational conditions such as heat generation, vibrations, structural stress, structural fatigue, G loading!) But that doesn’t mean you can’t use an analogy from one to describe another for simplistically sake. No one says its perfect, but this idea works and it doesent screw every one.

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:18:00 - [20]
 

For those going over why VNE in space doesn't really work, a simple explanation is due to internal pressures of maintaining that level of thrust (i.e., vibration, structural stress, etc), and not due to friction and outside the spacecraft effects.

That would be why you would start suffering hull and module damage, but no armor / shield damage.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:23:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Willow Whisp
For those going over why VNE in space doesn't really work, a simple explanation is due to internal pressures of maintaining that level of thrust (i.e., vibration, structural stress, etc), and not due to friction and outside the spacecraft effects.

That would be why you would start suffering hull and module damage, but no armor / shield damage.



Exactly!!!

But I think some could argue to a little bit of armor damage since the hull is the sub straight for the armor in the first place. But that’s another discussion entirely

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:23:00 - [22]
 

Well making a VNE for every ship is a monkey wrench the gears. theres about 165 pilotable ships in eve, you make VNE for each one youll have to go over extensive testing for each class, then balance it against weapon systems at various skill levels this sorta implimention is far more difficult than a simple overall class balancing and modification by family on the current nerf. Also the only other thing limited on ships are slots and calibration everything else is modifiyable stats wise, to make a point I want this game to be more like mech warrior II not mech warrior 4.

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:29:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
Well making a VNE for every ship is a monkey wrench the gears. theres about 165 pilotable ships in eve, you make VNE for each one youll have to go over extensive testing for each class, then balance it against weapon systems at various skill levels this sorta implimention is far more difficult than a simple overall class balancing and modification by family on the current nerf. Also the only other thing limited on ships are slots and calibration everything else is modifiyable stats wise, to make a point I want this game to be more like mech warrior II not mech warrior 4.


Not really. What this does is that you can still fit all the policarbs, fancy MWD, and implants, but you'll start taking damage after X threshhold. That is basically what the Devs are doing with the new balance changes, except this wouldn't be as botched. This keeps the existing physics engine intact, and doesn't try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to mass, agility, speed and inertia, the way the changes are done on SiSi today.

Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:33:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
Well making a VNE for every ship is a monkey wrench the gears. theres about 165 pilotable ships in eve, you make VNE for each one youll have to go over extensive testing for each class, then balance it against weapon systems at various skill levels this sorta implimention is far more difficult than a simple overall class balancing and modification by family on the current nerf. Also the only other thing limited on ships are slots and calibration everything else is modifiyable stats wise, to make a point I want this game to be more like mech warrior II not mech warrior 4.


OH yes it would take diligent work on the part of CCP. Make no mistake!

But the nice part is if they screw some thing up (like that’s never happened before) it will only affect 1 ship that the mistake happened on. Unlike the current proposed nerf that affects EVERY one. Not to mention the huge numbers of “OH WE DIDENT MEAN TO NERF THEM TOO” and you HAVE to know that is coming in droves! And by looking at ships in an individual bases, ships that need to stay fast can be. With out buggering up every thing else for every one else.

Lakia Kai
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:34:00 - [25]
 

How about for something slightly different.

Right now (from mine observations) orbiting speed is linked with your top speed which is the main problem with top fitted nanos.

How about: Calculate max orbiting speed based directly on ship's agility/inertia.

The orbiting speed would be only linked with the ships agility and not the max speed, hence no need for nerfing snakes and mwd.

Sure your poly fitted ceptor can go 18km/s in a stright line, but only 5k while maitaining for example 18km orbit (instead of 11k).

That would cut max orbiting speeds making you vulnerable to weapons like precision missiles and fast tracking guns.

All ships could be balanced to have the desired ranges of agility. Making ceptors be able to evade most weapons (as they should), cruisers would still be able to pack at least some speed tank but much less than now. Also huggins/rapiers would be still usefull anti nano ships.


Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:38:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Lakia Kai
How about for something slightly different.

Right now (from mine observations) orbiting speed is linked with your top speed which is the main problem with top fitted nanos.

How about: Calculate max orbiting speed based directly on ship's agility/inertia.

The orbiting speed would be only linked with the ships agility and not the max speed, hence no need for nerfing snakes and mwd.

Sure your poly fitted ceptor can go 18km/s in a stright line, but only 5k while maitaining for example 18km orbit (instead of 11k).

That would cut max orbiting speeds making you vulnerable to weapons like precision missiles and fast tracking guns.

All ships could be balanced to have the desired ranges of agility. Making ceptors be able to evade most weapons (as they should), cruisers would still be able to pack at least some speed tank but much less than now. Also huggins/rapiers would be still usefull anti nano ships.




that assumes you use the "orbit" button in order to fly a "nano ship"

Zake Daniels
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:43:00 - [27]
 

True.. But you can extend it simply to all maneuvers.

So going top speed will require very long turning radious, efectively getting you out of scram and possibly even targeting range.

Lakia Kai
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:44:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Zake Daniels
True.. But you can extend it simply to all maneuvers.

So going top speed will require very long turning radious, efectively getting you out of scram and possibly even targeting range.



Posted with an alt.. sorry...

Lakia Kai
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:45:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Lakia Kai on 29/07/2008 00:45:03

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:48:00 - [30]
 

Well maybe something can be done about it when planetary interaction comes out, ships flying to fast in atmo start to break up or things fall off :P


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