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Breaka
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.10.13 05:10:00 - [2491]
 

So, yeah, what about the millions of sp I have invested in flying an interceptor? a ship that is designed to use speed to tank, and now can be wtfpwned by anything with a missle launcher. Am I going to get compensated for the time I spent on that? completely ignorant decision made completely on the whines of carebears, as opposed to those that actually PvP.

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.10.13 07:57:00 - [2492]
 

Edited by: Murina on 13/10/2008 09:05:22
Originally by: FeralShadow
I think the speed changes are good. Back to good ole tanking ability.

-Feral




Active tanking is for RR BS and NPCing, it is useless for cruiser and smaller ships in gang pvp as they insta melt.

So far this nerf has made all types of frigates and most cruisers and destroyers worthless death traps as tacklers or virtually any other role in gang pvp. They are utterly out classed by their larger cousins like battle cruisers and battleships that now can hit any ship in the game while having a enormously greater tank.

I have yet to fully test FOF against small ships like cruisers and below as the market has not been seeded but i assume missile ships will now be even more powerful against tacklers without speed as FOF make missile ships dmg totally immune to ewar.

Sniping has yet to be fully tested also due to the market, but its gonna rock by the looks of things especially for the high sp players in eve.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.13 09:40:00 - [2493]
 

Originally by: Breaka
So, yeah, what about the millions of sp I have invested in flying an interceptor? a ship that is designed to use speed to tank, and now can be wtfpwned by anything with a missle launcher. Am I going to get compensated for the time I spent on that? completely ignorant decision made completely on the whines of carebears, as opposed to those that actually PvP.


Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long. And BTW I pass all my time PVP'ing in EVE and I'm all for this nerf.



lebrata
Hedion University
Posted - 2008.10.13 09:57:00 - [2494]
 

Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31

Originally by: DeadDuck


Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.

Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.

Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.

Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.

Originally by: DeadDuck
And BTW I pass all my time blob'ing anything that enters cva space from a solo ship to a full gang and I'm all for this nerf cos i think it will make blobbing easier.


fixed.


DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.13 10:04:00 - [2495]
 

Edited by: DeadDuck on 13/10/2008 10:04:43
Originally by: lebrata
Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31

Originally by: DeadDuck


Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.

Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.

Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.

Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.

Originally by: DeadDuck
And BTW I pass all my time blob'ing anything that enters cva space from a solo ship to a full gang and I'm all for this nerf cos i think it will make blobbing easier.


fixed.




Well you are a "PVP Pro" you surelly will adapt to these changes. Even I "a carebear blober" have adpated to deal with speed fittings Wink

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.10.13 10:05:00 - [2496]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.



Tbh: I remember melting sub 6.5-7km/s interceptors on TQ trivially, and without relying on Warrior IIs, in a battlecruiser..

Sub 7km/s interceptors are suicide ships. You might as well fly MWD-ing T1 fit T1 frigates as you're going to die on a very regular basis with 5-6km/s interceptors.


lebrata
Hedion University
Posted - 2008.10.13 10:07:00 - [2497]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
Edited by: DeadDuck on 13/10/2008 10:04:43
Originally by: lebrata
Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31

Originally by: DeadDuck


Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.

Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.

Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.

Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.

Originally by: DeadDuck
And BTW I pass all my time blob'ing anything that enters cva space from a solo ship to a full gang and I'm all for this nerf cos i think it will make blobbing easier.


fixed.




Well you are a "PVP Pro" you surelly will adapt to these changes. Even I "a carebear blober" have adpated to deal with speed fittings Wink


If you had adapted you would not have been crying for a nerf you would be killing nano gangs that enter your space as easily as the rest of us.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.13 10:15:00 - [2498]
 

Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: DeadDuck
Edited by: DeadDuck on 13/10/2008 10:04:43
Originally by: lebrata
Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31

Originally by: DeadDuck


Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.

Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.

Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.

Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.

Originally by: DeadDuck
And BTW I pass all my time blob'ing anything that enters cva space from a solo ship to a full gang and I'm all for this nerf cos i think it will make blobbing easier.


fixed.




Well you are a "PVP Pro" you surelly will adapt to these changes. Even I "a carebear blober" have adpated to deal with speed fittings Wink


If you had adapted you would not have been crying for a nerf you would be killing nano gangs that enter your space as easily as the rest of us.


ShockedArrowLaughing

Ko Shimin
Minmatar
Romanian Space Explorer
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2008.10.13 16:33:00 - [2499]
 

Until now I have never used nanoships, though my skills allow decent use of such builds, but I have been blasted to hell by them.

My point of view on them is something like a love-hate thing and my opinion is that the nerf is actually an overnerf.

Modules that allow for nano should be modified in such way that interceptors, frigates, AFs and destroyers would remain with their performance intact, cause in the end, those are ships desigend to use speed to their advantage. From cruiser class upward, the modules should be less and less efficient.

Not being able to hit a frig class ship with BS makes sense. What does not make sense is me flying a BS, getting jumped by a nano Rapier and a nano Vaga, they blast the crap out of me while I am not able to deal damage (because of speedtank and high shield resists of t2 cruisers) enough to bring them at least into armor. They simply stay outside my web range, orbiting at 15-20km letting the guns loose (that takes skill I suppose, as nano addicts say :P).

One of my corpmates lost his carrier to a gang of 30 nano t2 cruisers as they were way too fast for his fighters/drones, and he was unable to bring down any of them. We are talking here about a carrier which by design should be a superior ship with overwhelming firepower, but in this case it proves useless. I agree that when numbers are highly against you, you could fail, but not being able to fight back at all is simply not right..

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.10.13 17:12:00 - [2500]
 

Edited by: Murina on 13/10/2008 17:27:25

Originally by: Ko Shimin


Modules that allow for nano should be modified in such way that interceptors, frigates, AFs and destroyers would remain with their performance intact, cause in the end, those are ships desigend to use speed to their advantage. From cruiser class upward, the modules should be less and less efficient.


Cruisers need speed as well dude they are way to small HP wise for even small gang combat without speed to protect them.

Originally by: Ko Shimin
What does not make sense is me flying a BS, getting jumped by a nano Rapier and a nano Vaga, they blast the crap out of me while I am not able to deal damage (because of speedtank and high shield resists of t2 cruisers) enough to bring them at least into armor. They simply stay outside my web range, orbiting at 15-20km letting the guns loose (that takes skill I suppose, as nano addicts say :P).


To kill your setup???.. no your right it takes no skill, but a nano ship orbiting at 15-20km is very vulnerable to nuets (so try fitting them) and when you think about it you are facing TWO 150 million minimum each (CHEAP END) to maybe 4 billion each (HIGH END) worth of pure combat fitted intensively high sp combat ships, in a pure non pvp ratting setup.

Be honest do you really think you should win or even stand a chance?.


Originally by: Ko Shimin
One of my corpmates lost his carrier to a gang of 30 nano t2 cruisers as they were way too fast for his fighters/drones, and he was unable to bring down any of them. We are talking here about a carrier which by design should be a superior ship with overwhelming firepower, but in this case it proves useless. I agree that when numbers are highly against you, you could fail, but not being able to fight back at all is simply not right..


How long do you think his drones would have lasted if they had decided to pop them instead of out running them?, a carrier is a support ship not a uber pwn 30 ship for breakfast Juggernaut bud.

30 non nano ships could have killed that carrier without a loss buddy unless one of the 30 was a idiot and sat still to let himself get popped.

carleyjones
Caldari
Blood and Silver
Posted - 2008.10.13 18:04:00 - [2501]
 

Originally by: lebrata
Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31

Originally by: DeadDuck


Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.

Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.

Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.

Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.




Yeah i've been enjoying people using the so called 'golden age' of pvp from 3/4 years ago to support the current nano nerf. Im really liking those rose tinted glasses. Or the way they happy forget that nanos was possible then but people chose not to fit ships for speed because there wasnt bubbles or dictors or jump bridges and warp core stabs were all the rage, ecm was on most ships and low sec gates was camped by insta popping sniper bs. Unfortunately ccp has added content to the game since then that has changed the pvp landscape...

sue AGPlant
Minmatar
Pew Pew Patrol
Posted - 2008.10.13 20:04:00 - [2502]
 

everyone i am seeing here is saying nano is boring vs tanking = great fun. but id like to put forward my pov

nano (well as a member of tri that makes me a nano*** by default Very Happy)
you need concentration eyes constantly on what you are doing keeping your ranges etc because web = death and there are no second chances in eve people. people complain and moan about how big and scary nano is but there is only ONE module that a nano pilt fears above all else the web its simple its efective and it = death to 95%of nanos dumb enough to get caught (dumb as in piot error = skill or lack there of being the decider) what makes webs go out way passed the ranges of any nano **** 2 recons spring to mindShocked cant fly one? Im sure you have a friend that can.

tanking and damage.

This is something im having to do more and more and i have bloled it down to this basic formula.

[PVP]
activate tank+lock target+F1-F8
Wait (go make food/have smoke/cook a roast)
if not dead
goto [PVP]
else
activate clone



Now Im not saying that it dosent need looked at far from it but step it in change the stacking look at the other stepped in. WHY jump from 1 extream from the other perhaps this is exactly whats needed perhaps some middle ground is all thats needed

+ stepping it in means it dosent come in like a sledge hammer and people wont complain quite so much

/rant Very Happy

Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.10.13 20:59:00 - [2503]
 

What changes were made on the speed nerf version 1 to the version 2 we see now i see no changes.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.13 22:35:00 - [2504]
 

Originally by: Burn Mac
What changes were made on the speed nerf version 1 to the version 2 we see now i see no changes.


MWD activation delay was removed, I think, and the missiles damage formula is being changed. Probably more but still didn't have the time to check it out.

Shirazz
Amarr
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:21:00 - [2505]
 

ExclamationExclamationExclamation

CCP probably wont read this BUT

They should really start thinking about their cutomers, and a large proportion of of these customer will not be happy with the speed nerf as it is. This WILL slow the game down and people who are interested in this (normally) fast paced game WILL leave becasue of it.

Im not saying dont nerf at all, just do it in a much more gradual way otherwise you will lose customers, and with the current financial situation that is not what you need right now.

ExclamationExclamationExclamation

Dakess Athan
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:05:00 - [2506]
 

Edited by: Dakess Athan on 14/10/2008 08:16:04
Edited by: Dakess Athan on 14/10/2008 08:12:19
Well to all the nanoers who use to yell it at everyone who complained about the ridiculousness of the nigh invulnerable ships ADAPT OR DIE.

I am 110% in favor of the nerf its needed, everywhere I go in 0.0 all i ever see is a nano I hardly ever see bship, bcruisers, or command ships. Only the usual ships Vaga, Rapier, Zealot, and anything else that can be nanoed.

It's redundant and yes dealing with nanos is very easy but I personally don't like being engaged by an idiot who thinks hes invulnerable who then runs away when his drones are smartbombed and he gets neuted in the face.

I, like most people I know, want kills. I'm not interested everytime I go out on a roam in running into 4-5km/s ships that will engage me because of the fact they know they can run away. And I can't let whether or not I have a rapier around decide whether I can play or not. Even with a neut they aren't in web range and they will just limp out of range until they can get enough cap to MWD away and warp.

So whine all you like im tired of the nano fktard kind, maybe ppl will actually use ships they have to commit to fighting with. OMMGG what a concept.

lebrata
Hedion University
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:25:00 - [2507]
 

Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 09:52:45


Originally by: Dakess Athan
I want nano nerfed so ppl will sit still and let me pop them like the rats im soooooooooo uber at killing.

I can tank like 3 or 4 1.5 mil BS rats in my PVE raven so all these other players must be cheating and breaking the game by using these weird PVP fits and not sitting still like the rats do and letting me pop them........Rolling Eyes

Laughing



Fixed.

Morel Nova
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:50:00 - [2508]
 

Originally by: Dakess Athan
Even with a neut they aren't in web range and they will just limp out of range until they can get enough cap to MWD away and warp.


try putting that dronebay to use and load up webbing drones.

Verstal
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:42:00 - [2509]
 

My speed nerf sucks thread was closed 5 mins after it was created, I am canceling my 3 accounts, leave the game as fun as it is, my feedback to the design team is stop making changes to the basics of combat in this game, the speed nerf on SISI is a pile of bad design decisions. CCP Naviagtor is a power mad forum monkey btw, he should be fired.

Former Ceptor Pilot, thanks for my time in Eve...

-V-

Dana McLeod
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:18:00 - [2510]
 

anyone noticed yet how well out of line the balance between the speed mods is now on SiSi ?

OD t2: 12,5% velocity
Nano t2: 9,4% veloc. / 15.8% inertia
I-stab t2: 20% inertia

Nanofibers look way too good and overdrives need a buff really especially if they retain the 20% cargo amount penalty. As of now there is no reason whatsoever to fit a I-stab or overdrive over a nanofiber.

Wasnt the last nano nerf that changed speed mods meant to get rid off mods that affect two stats at once? And now you present us with an obviously overpowered nanofiber again, what gives?

Okano Hykeido
Minmatar
No Compromise
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:24:00 - [2511]
 

Edited by: Okano Hykeido on 14/10/2008 13:24:06
QFE in case you missed it

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but speed was considered as the Minmatar race trait, other races have other traits.

Why gallente ships appear on Sisi with less mass than Minmatar ships?
Should a MWDing Gallente battleship be faster than a MWDing Minmatar battleship (same skills, same mods, etc)? Why?
There are plans to remove speed as the Minmatar trait?

I know I may be asking too much but an answer to this would be appreciated.
Thanks.


Savesti Kyrsst
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:27:00 - [2512]
 


Ulic Vos
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:30:00 - [2513]
 

sav is so hawt

Col Terror
Minmatar
Merciless Onslaught
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:49:00 - [2514]
 

So without reading 80 some pages, will my training of HAC 5 go to waste?

lecrotta
Minmatar
lecrotta Corp
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:51:00 - [2515]
 

Originally by: Col Terror
So without reading 80 some pages, will my training of HAC 5 go to waste?


Yup.

Col Terror
Minmatar
Merciless Onslaught
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:58:00 - [2516]
 

Edited by: Col Terror on 14/10/2008 13:58:31
Then CCP should be extra careful with this patch, they may lose many customers.

Random5154
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:24:00 - [2517]
 

Not sure I would read 84 pages of the same circular arguments, however one thing is very true: sit in average 0.0 space and start jotting down what ships you see. You will see a massive bias towards dictors, HACs, recons and Inty's unless you happen to see a POS gang moving through.

When you are a game designer, with tiers of ships, and the majority of your game is reduced to nano-ships, you are likely to think about a balance. I don't think nano is an i-win button, but it's certainly the smart strategy to staying alive. Unfortunately since everyone has enough smarts to realize this strategy, and the game has a paradigm shift toward it, the devs may notice and rebalance a few elements.

And while nanos have counters, nano pilots know the counters and largely avoid those engagements. I've seen 5-10 frigates warp into a nano gang (T2 cruiser hulls), and they warped off. Let's be realistic, when you invest mega-millions to a billion in a ship, your idea of risk vs reward usually becomes so extreme that you avoid anything that isn't a clear victory.

Q429
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:24:00 - [2518]
 

Why is it this huge system reworking is reminisce of something called the NGE...

lebrata
Hedion University
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:49:00 - [2519]
 

Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 15:00:32

Originally by: Random5154
Not sure I would read 84 pages of the same circular arguments, however one thing is very true: sit in average 0.0 space and start jotting down what ships you see. You will see a massive bias towards dictors, HACs, recons and Inty's unless you happen to see a POS gang moving through.


1. Look at a fleet defending the entry gates to a system from a invasion and you will see snipers.

2.Look at a fleet attacking a POS and you will see dreads and carriers.

3. Look at a camped gate in low sec and you will see RR and tackle.

4. And yes yes look at a roaming gang heading into deep hostile space that is covered with jump bridge networks and choke points and you will see fast ships and recons.

Its called using the right tool for the right job, now if CCP wants to boost other modules like the web script that gives range vs str differences then cool but to remove a valuable and highly needed form of fit is absurd.

Originally by: Random5154
And while nanos have counters, nano pilots know the counters and largely avoid those engagements.


So to understand that rather flawed logic for this nerf:


1. Pilots will always want to get kills while taking few or no losses, this is a indisputable personality trait of 99% eve players.

2. Other pilots seem to think NANO is to blame for this attitude when it obviously is not its just ppls attitude.

3. The others complain to ccp for a nerf that will essentially turn combat into PVE like static blob fights where taking losses will be unavoidable for either side no matter the individual skill of the pilots and the team work skills they may have.

I seem to have found a flaw in the argument LOL... if ppl are avoiding losses now, by turning pvp into a static ratting style of pvp guaranteed to get ppl killed no matter how well they fly or work as a team they will engage other gangs even lessShocked!!!!!.

Verstal
Posted - 2008.10.14 21:32:00 - [2520]
 

Edited by: Verstal on 14/10/2008 23:13:41

Crying or Very sad

Tried the speed nerf on SISI, my first impression was this is horrible, and after the first hour it only went down hill. The customers asked for Nano HAC fixes, and instead we get an entire new combat system, I like killing Nano hacs as the value is high, and if you work as a team it was pretty easy to counter that style of play, they didn't bother me after I learned what to do against them, I even used t1 cruisers to kill a few t2 Nano hacs, mostly due the pilot over estimating what and easy kill I would be.

I have 3 accounts (now that are canceled after the changes to SISI) each account has a dedicated combat roll, Caldari command ship / interceptor, a cross trained Gallente / Amarr specialist, and a Capital specialist.

Out of all the ships that I have flown in Eve my favorite is the crow, the roll of an interceptor is now dead, I loved going fast almost to the point of out of control, I spent billions and a lot of time getting the proper setups made and figured many ways to get the most speed for the cheapest price, I spent months dedicated to the pursuit of cheap speed, I loved the idea of people being crazy enough to fly around in a ship that could be killed in 1 volley, by 1 mistake, the adrenalin rush of being in combat with that type of isk at stake is now not worth it with these changes.

You have taken our dream away, our dream of great Nano kills with faction mods on it, our dream of breaking a speed records in ship that cost more to put together then 5+ x capitals and can be killed with 1 mistake, finally our dream of enjoying Eve.

My subs are canceled if the changes are deployed to the main branch they will remain that way and I will give up this game that used to be a lot of FUN to play for me, I am only going to the trouble of writing this down on a public forum in the hope that someone at CCP will come to their senses and stop it from happening.

CCP does not make that much profit from Eve that they can afford to lose 50-100k worth of subscriptions, if enough people are willing to walk away from this game because of these SISI changes they will have hope enough people sign up to replace us. The changes aren't going to make the game easy enough for the masses of WOW players to come running even with walking in stations added to it, if they did the servers would break.

We pay for the ability for CCP to make this game, if enough subscriptions are canceled because of these changes then who is right? Game design is a subjective pursuit based on opinion of what makes things fun, these designers do not have the skill to play this game at the highest level, so they are changing it to compensate for it, making it less fun for those that do. I am asking for all against the changes to cancel their subscriptions with a note to the president of CCP about your reason for canceling.

Vote with your wallet it's the only way to really be heard! Stand up and be counted! Exclamation


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