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Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:59:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc


Your point being?


You're asking too much here Astro. I don't think he has one. Razz


I don't think so either. It's pretty sad that his way to undermine my argument is piddling over definitions that were never concretely defined. Whatever though.

PS. Have you seen that vaga setup by the dev in the omgiant thread? Full snakes, 2 t2 aux thrusters, 2 ODs. 4km/s. Shocked


My point is that the Minnie ships that are supposed to be fast don't have to compete with ships that do it better even if technically slower.

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.07.26 08:09:00 - [62]
 

First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now.

Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder.

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.26 10:40:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Derek Sigres
First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now.

Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder.


what blaster ships fit 2 webs ugh

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.26 10:47:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Derek Sigres
First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now.

Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder.


what blaster ships fit 2 webs ugh


Why would they need to, you either catch em...or you dont.

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.26 10:50:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Derek Sigres
First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now.

Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder.


what blaster ships fit 2 webs ugh


Why would they need to, you either catch em...or you dont.


just wondering where the spare slot from droping a second web comes from

Yo Mommy
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.26 11:00:00 - [66]
 

If someone after patch want to kill my megas MWD they are going to either be inside my web-range, or they are going to need faction scrambler or arazu/lachesis.
I don't see much problems with this. Only thing I'm going to do is starting to use faction webs, sure they are expensive but I will always know that if someone wants to take away my speed they ain't going to be able to without me webbing + blasting them to pieces unless they have minnie/gallente recon.

Adapt or die. We've all heard it countless times in eve. I am going to experiment with tracking computers, maybe other ammo and perhaps faction webbers and stuff on the mega. Don't really see that the patch will be a problem, it will only be a new and exciting challenge Very Happy

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.26 12:40:00 - [67]
 

I dont anticipate my Damnation setup changing much.

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.07.26 21:32:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Derek Sigres
First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now.

Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder.


what blaster ships fit 2 webs ugh


Why would they need to, you either catch em...or you dont.


just wondering where the spare slot from droping a second web comes from


I've flown against both hyperions and megathrons who through it necessary to carry a double web. Rokhs probably won't do such a thing because the need to keep as many mids as possible for a tank.

My point however is I think everyone is going to have a heart attack here before the changes even happen. Look at all the threads of "fear for the inty" or "HACS USELESS!". I'm obviously paraphrasing but for the love of god people - wait unitl moday and jump on sisi and SEE how it goes before you start making assertions like "blaseters useless".

Will you be forced to change the way you fight? Probably a bit - everyone will be wrestling with these changes.

William Darkk
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:31:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Maeltstome
im wondering what the next whine will be on the way to the cinema tonight - then i realise:

HP Buffers

Can't wait to see the whines commence how that 1600 plates will replace speed mods in the lowslots.

Some of these changes are downright idiotic and seem to be nerfing some mods so that other mods dont seem quite as bad in comparison..

But i will say one thing; if 100% of these changes go ahead im going to start flyng assault ships, 'cause frigs will start ripping bigger ships. Especially since ceptors can hit 2k with an AB as it stands.

Im just getting bored of the forum warriors achieving goals for the benefit of themselfs when real issues (like large projectiles, the pilgrim and active tanking's uselessness on sub-cap's) go untouched.


Whoa, a role for assault frigates? No way!

Ignatious Mei
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:47:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: William Darkk
Originally by: Maeltstome
im wondering what the next whine will be on the way to the cinema tonight - then i realise:

HP Buffers

Can't wait to see the whines commence how that 1600 plates will replace speed mods in the lowslots.

Some of these changes are downright idiotic and seem to be nerfing some mods so that other mods dont seem quite as bad in comparison..

But i will say one thing; if 100% of these changes go ahead im going to start flyng assault ships, 'cause frigs will start ripping bigger ships. Especially since ceptors can hit 2k with an AB as it stands.

Im just getting bored of the forum warriors achieving goals for the benefit of themselfs when real issues (like large projectiles, the pilgrim and active tanking's uselessness on sub-cap's) go untouched.


Whoa, a role for assault frigates? No way!


This isn't meant to be sarcastic in anyway but could you explain how this creates a role for AF's?

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:53:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Ignatious Mei

This isn't meant to be sarcastic in anyway but could you explain how this creates a role for AF's?


Ganking solo cruiser/etc sized turret ships. I thought it was obvious.

Ignatious Mei
Posted - 2008.07.26 23:05:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Ignatious Mei

This isn't meant to be sarcastic in anyway but could you explain how this creates a role for AF's?


Ganking solo cruiser/etc sized turret ships. I thought it was obvious.



I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.07.26 23:12:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/07/2008 23:11:48
Originally by: Ignatious Mei

I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf.


Well, do you know how to kill a AF in a turret cruiser very easily (trivial really!)?

Ignatious Mei
Posted - 2008.07.26 23:34:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/07/2008 23:11:48
Originally by: Ignatious Mei

I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf.


Well, do you know how to kill a AF in a turret cruiser very easily (trivial really!)?


This is pointless. I'll wait for the big surprise since you obviously don't want to explain what you are talking about.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.07.27 00:13:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/07/2008 23:11:48
Originally by: Ignatious Mei

I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf.


Well, do you know how to kill a AF in a turret cruiser very easily (trivial really!)?


This is pointless. I'll wait for the big surprise since you obviously don't want to explain what you are talking about.

AF's are getting their speed boosted (check the second graph in the devblog).
They tend to die because they are so slow (and have to fit MWDs) and get webbed down to 10% of their base speed.

Now it will be feasible to fit ABs to them, which are easier to fit and keep running, and they will get webbed only to 40% of their speed, and - unlike MWDing ships in the near future - will get to keep their AB on in the event that the opposing ship is fit with a scram.

Additionally, AF's may now also be inclined to fit a scrambler (easier to fit and keep online, capacitor-wise, than a disruptor), which prevents the larger (and formerly faster with a MWD) ship from simply MWDing out of range and pwning it.

What this adds up to is that AFs will be reasonably fast enough to actually catch things, won't get instantly pwnd by webs, and will actually be able to keep things in one place. Sure, they'll still get hit, but they're frigate-sized and have good tanks, so they should be able to shrug off a good portion of the damage.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.07.27 00:26:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 27/07/2008 00:29:54
Originally by: Derek Sigres
I've flown against both hyperions and megathrons who through it necessary to carry a double web.


Hyps maybe (don't like them as blaster boats btw), but megas???????? so tell me, how do you keep your cap alive without that cap booster?

Edit: removed some quotes.

Ignatious Mei
Posted - 2008.07.27 00:27:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/07/2008 23:11:48
Originally by: Ignatious Mei

I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf.


Well, do you know how to kill a AF in a turret cruiser very easily (trivial really!)?


This is pointless. I'll wait for the big surprise since you obviously don't want to explain what you are talking about.

AF's are getting their speed boosted (check the second graph in the devblog).
They tend to die because they are so slow (and have to fit MWDs) and get webbed down to 10% of their base speed.

Now it will be feasible to fit ABs to them, which are easier to fit and keep running, and they will get webbed only to 40% of their speed, and - unlike MWDing ships in the near future - will get to keep their AB on in the event that the opposing ship is fit with a scram.

Additionally, AF's may now also be inclined to fit a scrambler (easier to fit and keep online, capacitor-wise, than a disruptor), which prevents the larger (and formerly faster with a MWD) ship from simply MWDing out of range and pwning it.

What this adds up to is that AFs will be reasonably fast enough to actually catch things, won't get instantly pwnd by webs, and will actually be able to keep things in one place. Sure, they'll still get hit, but they're frigate-sized and have good tanks, so they should be able to shrug off a good portion of the damage.


Thank you.

Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.27 01:19:00 - [78]
 

k i did my best to read this thread without laughing at anoobis, so pardon me for skipping his posts mostly. However, i wanted to address my concern to blaster boats, and here is what i'm afraid of, so please reassure me, or correct me if i'm wrong...

But at this point, Tracking disruptors got changed to affect fall off and optimal which makes them highly effective against blaster boats already (with a minor exception to large blasters because they have a mildly acceptable range) because it brings their optimal to 0.3km or so, with a fall off of maybe 3km or so. Now if you do manage to get into that now small fall off, you may still hit your mark.

However, if said blaster boats web only slows down its victim by 60% then it can much more easily glide out of blaster boats shooting range. Now, does that mean i should just try and use an AB on my thorax/deimos, or for the already slow bs's, like mega/hype. Because if the MWD gets shut off we'll probably get out ran, but if we run an AB we may not get into range.


What are your thoughts? am i justified in this fear, does someone share this same theory? or am i paniccing over nothing.

Also, while this could suck for blaster boats, it did get me semi excited that it could help get the arazu/lachesis back into the higher level of effective recons again, as well as help a LITTLE bit with AF's.

Arcon Telf
Gallente
N0 APOLOGY
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.07.27 01:42:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 01:43:10
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
k i did my best to read this thread without laughing at anoobis, so pardon me for skipping his posts mostly. However, i wanted to address my concern to blaster boats, and here is what i'm afraid of, so please reassure me, or correct me if i'm wrong...

But at this point, Tracking disruptors got changed to affect fall off and optimal which makes them highly effective against blaster boats already (with a minor exception to large blasters because they have a mildly acceptable range) because it brings their optimal to 0.3km or so, with a fall off of maybe 3km or so. Now if you do manage to get into that now small fall off, you may still hit your mark.

However, if said blaster boats web only slows down its victim by 60% then it can much more easily glide out of blaster boats shooting range. Now, does that mean i should just try and use an AB on my thorax/deimos, or for the already slow bs's, like mega/hype. Because if the MWD gets shut off we'll probably get out ran, but if we run an AB we may not get into range.


What are your thoughts? am i justified in this fear, does someone share this same theory? or am i paniccing over nothing.

Also, while this could suck for blaster boats, it did get me semi excited that it could help get the arazu/lachesis back into the higher level of effective recons again, as well as help a LITTLE bit with AF's.


So far I tend to agree with the folks who suggest that by the time someone's scram (assuming it's not a recon) shuts off your MWD, intertia will carry you into blaster range anyway. At that point you can web and/or scram your target. Now, you may have a frustrating time taking on an interceptor 1v1 in your Thorax, but since when was that not ultimately frustrating? In a gang or fleet fight, or taking on another cruiser 1v1, I think the Thorax in particular will still be a face-melter.

Also, AFs are gonna be back with a vengeance, and hopefully Gallente recons too...

EDIT: Also remember that if your MWD gets shut off at 9km, or better yet 7.5km, your web can really help you out if you activate it as soon as you're in range (at least 10km)...

Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.27 01:48:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 27/07/2008 01:48:22
arcon: i guess what i was trying to say is that its not so much getting into range thats creeping me out, its keeping the target in range of my already silly-short range guns because of the web nerf, and in conjunction with mwd deactivation, seems that more frightening.

However, i'm thinking that most ppl will still fit 24km "disruptors" cuz thats a huge range advantage atleast.

edit: however, i don't disagree with you, i am probably (hopefully) just paniccing.

Arcon Telf
Gallente
N0 APOLOGY
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.07.27 01:52:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 01:52:30
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
arcon: i guess what i was trying to say is that its not so much getting into range thats creeping me out, its keeping the target in range of my already silly-short range guns because of the web nerf, and in conjunction with mwd deactivation, seems that more frightening.

However, i'm thinking that most ppl will still fit 24km "disruptors" cuz thats a huge range advantage atleast.


Right. It's important to remember that not everyone is going to switch to an ABII, and not everyone is going to switch to using short-range scramblers to kill your MWD.

Surely there will be some changes in combat, some ships that all of the sudden might outrun the Thorax - but remember that it will have as much to do with a pilot's fitting choice and trained skills as with these "nerfs." Imagine fitting your Thorax with a web and a tech 2 scram, effectively killing someone's MWD and slowing them way down.

Now, if your MWD is still up and running - you win.
If you're fitting an ABII - you win.
If your MWD has been deactivated due to a hostile short range scram, then you're either fighting a ship that's too fast for you or you aren't. I don't think that the 90% webs were ever meant to be a win button, just as the nano technology was never meant to be one either...

Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.27 01:58:00 - [82]
 

hmm maybe this whole nerf thing WILL add flavor to pvp (i will still miss my nano tar though Sad)

and if its any consolation to you mimtars i'll cry for you too.

Arcon Telf
Gallente
N0 APOLOGY
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:02:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 02:02:19
I agree. Let's just wait and see what happens. I love the face-melting simplicity of a blasterax or blaster-Myrm, but these changes could really spice things up. The Enyo and Ishkur could be flyable again....joy! Twisted Evil Also Gallente recons, etc.

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:05:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Arcon Telf
Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 02:02:19
I agree. Let's just wait and see what happens. I love the face-melting simplicity of a blasterax or blaster-Myrm, but these changes could really spice things up. The Enyo and Ishkur could be flyable again....joy! Twisted Evil Also Gallente recons, etc.


Buffing AF's and buffing Gallente recon are good things. One of the nano changes, maybe two, would have been ok. As is though, bleh. Too much crap all at once. I think the proposed (?) changes tend to make life a little tougher on blaster boats, but hell, it could be worse. You could be Minmatar. Neutral

Arcon Telf
Gallente
N0 APOLOGY
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:09:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: Arcon Telf
Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 02:02:19
I agree. Let's just wait and see what happens. I love the face-melting simplicity of a blasterax or blaster-Myrm, but these changes could really spice things up. The Enyo and Ishkur could be flyable again....joy! Twisted Evil Also Gallente recons, etc.


Buffing AF's and buffing Gallente recon are good things. One of the nano changes, maybe two, would have been ok. As is though, bleh. Too much crap all at once. I think the proposed (?) changes tend to make life a little tougher on blaster boats, but hell, it could be worse. You could be Minmatar. Neutral


It's definitely a lot to take in all at once. And from what I understand, there's no way 100% of the changes mentioned in the dev blog will be implemented (at least not exactly as described) by the time testing concludes...so everybody sit tight and have Snickers. Or Twix if you prefer. It's the only candy bar with the cookie crunch.

Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:14:00 - [86]
 

i'm thinking of cross training amarr instead of minmitar now tbh

p.s. I like this thread Very Happy

Ignatious Mei
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:37:00 - [87]
 

The one thing about all this I got excited about was that gal recons would get a bit better, but then I got to thinking. The AVERAGE pilot isn't going to be fitting a t2 scram. So with over heating a arazu/lach the average range most pilots will be getting is between 18 and 20k. With damps in their current state, can a pilot with decent skills damp a BS below 20k lock range?

Arcon Telf
Gallente
N0 APOLOGY
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:53:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Ignatious Mei
The one thing about all this I got excited about was that gal recons would get a bit better, but then I got to thinking. The AVERAGE pilot isn't going to be fitting a t2 scram. So with over heating a arazu/lach the average range most pilots will be getting is between 18 and 20k. With damps in their current state, can a pilot with decent skills damp a BS below 20k lock range?


I would say that any pilot worth their salt flying an Arazu should damn well better be willing and able to fit a T2 scram. Shocked

For 80 million ISK a pop, you better train those support skills...Rolling Eyes

Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:57:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Arcon Telf
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
The one thing about all this I got excited about was that gal recons would get a bit better, but then I got to thinking. The AVERAGE pilot isn't going to be fitting a t2 scram. So with over heating a arazu/lach the average range most pilots will be getting is between 18 and 20k. With damps in their current state, can a pilot with decent skills damp a BS below 20k lock range?


I would say that any pilot worth their salt flying an Arazu should damn well better be willing and able to fit a T2 scram. Shocked

For 80 million ISK a pop, you better train those support skills...Rolling Eyes


not to mention gang bonuses will help if you can get someone to do it.

Ignatious Mei
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:59:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Arcon Telf
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
The one thing about all this I got excited about was that gal recons would get a bit better, but then I got to thinking. The AVERAGE pilot isn't going to be fitting a t2 scram. So with over heating a arazu/lach the average range most pilots will be getting is between 18 and 20k. With damps in their current state, can a pilot with decent skills damp a BS below 20k lock range?


I would say that any pilot worth their salt flying an Arazu should damn well better be willing and able to fit a T2 scram. Shocked

For 80 million ISK a pop, you better train those support skills...Rolling Eyes


Sorry, meant to say faction scram, not t2.


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