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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:31:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Troubadour
Originally by: Zukira Al'Kalish
Seems to me that the Gallente are about to gain the upper hand in terms of highly effective Force Recon Ships...


I'll tell you the same thing i tell everyone else, the Lach and Arazu are damn good recons, and never stopped being that. damp "nerf" didn't really effect the gal recons that much as they reworked and nerfed sensorboosters as well. Nobody seemed to realize this and just stopped flying the arazu and lach for no good reason. 2-3 damps with range scripts are enough to shut down 1-3 ships, depending on what they are flying. And unlike ECM, it's not chance based, which is good.


You are terribly wrong. Sensor boosters were nerfed in only one way: scripts. Disruptors were nerfed in 2 ways: scripts and HIGHLY DIMINUSHED EFFECTIVITY, even in a single attribute when using scripts for that attribute.

Now, if this change comes to be, arazus and lachesis will have at least a reasonable role, but that does not mean dampeners are fine. Dampeners on damp ships should be looked at, because as of now a tracking disruptor arazu or an ecm arazu is much better than a dampener arazu.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:36:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Ignatious Mei

I agree that more setups is definitely good however...I'm worried that 90 percent of the ships your going to see on the battlefield now are going to be domi's and torp ravens. Without being able to stay in range a blaster boat is pretty worthless.


Blaster ships will be able to approach their targets just fine. The MWD shut down from scramblers + 50-60% speed reduction from a web is about the same of the previous 90% speed reduction of a single web, and at about the same range. There is no change regarding this dynamics.

On the other hand, blaster ships where useless against nano ships, which may not be the case anymore after the changes. Depending on the end values of these two modules you may see a very different scenario in nano combat, and maybe deimos will end being mean against other hacs, finally.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:50:00 - [33]
 

Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance?

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:51:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance?


Because the vagabond is minmatar... and minmatar is the vagabond. It's okay, we don't have any other ships tbh.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:52:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance?


Because the vagabond is minmatar... and minmatar is the vagabond. It's okay, we don't have any other ships tbh.


This is a minnie buff if anything.

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:54:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance?


Wrong thread? Or wtf are you talking about, lol. If in response to Astro's post on page 1, um, yeah, we have more ships than the Vagabond, although the whiners probably wouldn't know that. Laughing

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:55:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance?


Because the vagabond is minmatar... and minmatar is the vagabond. It's okay, we don't have any other ships tbh.


This is a minnie buff if anything.


Right. Razz

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:09:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian

This is a minnie buff if anything.


I have just lost faith in the S+M forum. Neutral

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:23:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian

This is a minnie buff if anything.


I have just lost faith in the S+M forum. Neutral


Minnie are still faster than everyone else. Granted the difference isn't pronounced enough for the most part.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:26:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian

This is a minnie buff if anything.


I have just lost faith in the S+M forum. Neutral


Minnie are still faster than everyone else. Granted the difference isn't pronounced enough for the most part.


So you think this is a minnie buff... because the speed difference between minmatar ships and other ships has gotten smaller?

Can I subscribe to your newsletter?

oniplE
MeMento.
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:32:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Ignatious Mei

I agree that more setups is definitely good however...I'm worried that 90 percent of the ships your going to see on the battlefield now are going to be domi's and torp ravens. Without being able to stay in range a blaster boat is pretty worthless.


Blaster ships will be able to approach their targets just fine. The MWD shut down from scramblers + 50-60% speed reduction from a web is about the same of the previous 90% speed reduction of a single web, and at about the same range. There is no change regarding this dynamics.

On the other hand, blaster ships where useless against nano ships, which may not be the case anymore after the changes. Depending on the end values of these two modules you may see a very different scenario in nano combat, and maybe deimos will end being mean against other hacs, finally.

The advantage for blaster ships is that they dont require to burn a cap expensive MWD to reach the same speed as before the "nerf" when webbed. So that is good i guess.

But because of the overal speed nerf it will take longer to actually get to the target. Making it to the target in one piece will be harder.



Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:44:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian

This is a minnie buff if anything.


I have just lost faith in the S+M forum. Neutral


Minnie are still faster than everyone else. Granted the difference isn't pronounced enough for the most part.


So you think this is a minnie buff... because the speed difference between minmatar ships and other ships has gotten smaller?

Can I subscribe to your newsletter?


Well, actually it has gotten effectively bigger. Because the speed difference matters more now than it did before.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:54:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Well, actually it has gotten effectively bigger. Because the speed difference matters more now than it did before.


Not sure I buy that. I need to dig up the speed formula, but it should all work out to be percentages. Like it normally is.

Transmaniacon
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:55:00 - [44]
 

Minmatar's speed is greater than other ships, but now with less modifiers, it does not have the potential to be as high. The higher modifiers were very pronounced on minmatars higher speed, because the top speed grew quickly with the stacking ability, where as now the lower ammount of modifiers and higher stacking penalty will make minmatar top speeds much closer to speed achieved by other race's ships. Astro knows what hes talking about.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 21:30:00 - [45]
 

I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm saying the sky is not falling.

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.25 21:33:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance?


Because the vagabond is minmatar... and minmatar is the vagabond. It's okay, we don't have any other ships tbh.


This is a minnie buff if anything.


This is not saying the sky is not falling. This is calling it a buff. This is stupid. Laughing

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 21:36:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm saying the sky is not falling.


It's not. But any way you cut it, it's going to hit hard in one of minmatar's few advantages. Our frigates are okay. Our battleships suck. Our capitals are laughable to downright pathetic.

All we have are our cruisers. This nerf already hits two of them hard (Rapier, Huginn). Potentially another 4 (Vagabond, stabber, fleet stabber, fleet bellicose(eh..)). Hits both of our command ships hard. Hits our logistics hard.

If this nerf does in those 4 ships I listed (it probably won't, but we'll see), we're left with the worst sniper hac and a hic. Either way you cut it, CCP basically knifed a bunch of our ships in the chest. It's most certainly not a boost to minmatar, any way you look at it.


Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 21:48:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian
I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm saying the sky is not falling.


It's not. But any way you cut it, it's going to hit hard in one of minmatar's few advantages. Our frigates are okay. Our battleships suck. Our capitals are laughable to downright pathetic.

All we have are our cruisers. This nerf already hits two of them hard (Rapier, Huginn). Potentially another 4 (Vagabond, stabber, fleet stabber, fleet bellicose(eh..)). Hits both of our command ships hard. Hits our logistics hard.

If this nerf does in those 4 ships I listed (it probably won't, but we'll see), we're left with the worst sniper hac and a hic. Either way you cut it, CCP basically knifed a bunch of our ships in the chest. It's most certainly not a boost to minmatar, any way you look at it.




Min BSes don't suck, granted they are not as shiny as everyone else, but that is because they lost their niche.

The Recons are not getting nerfed, they will still be able to ruin a pilot's day by bringing them to a relative standstill. Remember, the Minnie Recons primary targets will be much slower to begin with after this. As for the already fast Minnie ships...they will still be significantly faster than their counterparts.

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.25 21:57:00 - [49]
 

I think you need to work on your understanding of the words buff and nerf. When our ships, that rely on speed for tanks, all get slowed down, that's a nerf. Not a buff. When our recons primary module is a webber, and a webber gets reduced from a 90% slow to a 60% slow, that's a nerf. Not a buff.

The fact that some ships that get webbed will already be going slower is not really relevant, because friendly ships that are trying to catch the slowed ship will also be slower, and even if you deal in absolute speeds, I'd bet money they'll be going faster after the nano nerf than they are now with dual 90% webs. The percentage they are slowed will be significantly less with the nerfed webbers, and so the recon is nerfed.

Matar will still have some decent ships after this patch, and the Vaga will still be decent I imagine. Regardless, while I normally I try to be more polite than this, I gotta say Anoobis that you're seriously just talking out your ass at this point. This is not a buff. You should quit while you're ahead. Laughing

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 21:59:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian

Min BSes don't suck


Neutral Prove me otherwise. Go on, I want to hear it.

Quote:

The Recons are not getting nerfed



So a web nerf and a speed nerf isn't a nerf? They will even be less useful with all the other speed cuts.

Quote:
As for the already fast Minnie ships...they will still be significantly faster than their counterparts.


Bold statement for someone who hasn't seen the numbers yet. Nobody has. I'm quite positive it will just scale down.. in which case, no, they won't be "significantly" faster.

Let me make a stupid example to get the "scale" point across. Given that all speed formulas rely on percentages.. which they should.

CCP decides they want turret wars instead of spaceship wars. All speeds are cut by 99%. Tracking remains how it is.

Minmatar turret goes 13m/s. Gallente turret goes 10m/s. Gallente turret tracks twice as good as the minmatar turret. Result? Who would ever want to fly a minmatar turret.

and then turn it around, the other way. CCP wants speed wars.

Minmatar battleships go 7km/s. Gallente battleships go 5km/s. Result? Who would ever want to fly a gallente battleship? Minmatar battleships control distance.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 22:06:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Boz Well
I think you need to work on your understanding of the words buff and nerf. When our ships, that rely on speed for tanks, all get slowed down, that's a nerf. Not a buff. When our recons primary module is a webber, and a webber gets reduced from a 90% slow to a 60% slow, that's a nerf. Not a buff.

The fact that some ships that get webbed will already be going slower is not really relevant, because friendly ships that are trying to catch the slowed ship will also be slower, and even if you deal in absolute speeds, I'd bet money they'll be going faster after the nano nerf than they are now with dual 90% webs. The percentage they are slowed will be significantly less with the nerfed webbers, and so the recon is nerfed.

Matar will still have some decent ships after this patch, and the Vaga will still be decent I imagine. Regardless, while I normally I try to be more polite than this, I gotta say Anoobis that you're seriously just talking out your ass at this point. This is not a buff. You should quit while you're ahead. Laughing


There are less ships competing in the speed arena against the matari...how is it not a buff? They play the Minnie's own game better than the Minnie's do.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 22:17:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian

Min BSes don't suck


Neutral Prove me otherwise. Go on, I want to hear it.


1237 potential DPS and 80k EHP sound good?

Quote:
Quote:

The Recons are not getting nerfed



So a web nerf and a speed nerf isn't a nerf? They will even be less useful with all the other speed cuts.


What is 40% of 5 km/s? That's right 2km/s. 40% of that? You got it, 800 m/s.

How many ships do you spose will even reach 5 km/s?

Quote:
Quote:
As for the already fast Minnie ships...they will still be significantly faster than their counterparts.


Bold statement for someone who hasn't seen the numbers yet. Nobody has. I'm quite positive it will just scale down.. in which case, no, they won't be "significantly" faster.


Fast enough to win an engagement a slower ship would lose might just be significant.

Quote:
Let me make a stupid example to get the "scale" point across. Given that all speed formulas rely on percentages.. which they should.

CCP decides they want turret wars instead of spaceship wars. All speeds are cut by 99%. Tracking remains how it is.

Minmatar turret goes 13m/s. Gallente turret goes 10m/s. Gallente turret tracks twice as good as the minmatar turret. Result? Who would ever want to fly a minmatar turret.

and then turn it around, the other way. CCP wants speed wars.

Minmatar battleships go 7km/s. Gallente battleships go 5km/s. Result? Who would ever want to fly a gallente battleship? Minmatar battleships control distance.


Minmatar Battleships have always controlled distance. And they still will. Yet Gallente will still be more popular, because of the drones.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 22:27:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian

1237 potential DPS and 80k EHP sound good?



No. Because 1. It's fake DPS. 2. It's at 3km. 3. Failure of an EHP. 4. A blasterthron would eat that ship for breakfast twice over. An amarr ship could do 80 DPS less for 50% more EHP at a much farther range.



Quote:

What is 40% of 5 km/s? That's right 2km/s. 40% of that? You got it, 800 m/s.

How many ships do you spose will even reach 5 km/s?



Stupidity. Webs are getting nerfed. Minnie recon speed is getting nerfed. It's a NERF. No matter how good you think it is after, it's still a NERF.

Quote:
Fast enough to win an engagement a slower ship would lose might just be significant.


So you get to draw an invisible line that says this ship is an acceptable nano and this one isn't? Seriously now.

Quote:

Minmatar Battleships have always controlled distance.



No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 2 years ago. That's when they kited megas. Not now. Certainly not after this nano nerf. Want some reasons why? Their base speed isnt very high. Their MWD speed isnt much higher than others. OVERHEATING.

But. Let's pretend they can. A tempest with 800mm AC IIs, barrage, 3 damage mods, full set of gallente drones and falloff rigs, is outdamaged by the mega until 24km. 24km. Funny, that's scram range. That's not even considering the tanks, which the mega wins by a long shot. It's also outdamaged (outtanked too) by armageddon at every range. I'm sure you'll go on about capless weapons, damage selection, and neuts. Take a look at the 32 page thread about this if you truly want to go down that path, that argument has been defeated at least 10 times.


Quote:
And they still will. Yet Gallente will still be more popular, because of the drones.


Yeah, it's the drones that make gallente popular. Not their higher damage, their bigger tank, or their ability to actually be worth a **** in a fleet fight.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.07.25 22:34:00 - [54]
 

The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 22:41:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc


Your point being?

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.25 23:32:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc


Your point being?


You're asking too much here Astro. I don't think he has one. Razz

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc


Your point being?


You're asking too much here Astro. I don't think he has one. Razz


I don't think so either. It's pretty sad that his way to undermine my argument is piddling over definitions that were never concretely defined. Whatever though.

PS. Have you seen that vaga setup by the dev in the omgiant thread? Full snakes, 2 t2 aux thrusters, 2 ODs. 4km/s. Shocked

Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 - [58]
 

im wondering what the next whine will be on the way to the cinema tonight - then i realise:

HP Buffers

Can't wait to see the whines commence how that 1600 plates will replace speed mods in the lowslots.

Some of these changes are downright idiotic and seem to be nerfing some mods so that other mods dont seem quite as bad in comparison..

But i will say one thing; if 100% of these changes go ahead im going to start flyng assault ships, 'cause frigs will start ripping bigger ships. Especially since ceptors can hit 2k with an AB as it stands.

Im just getting bored of the forum warriors achieving goals for the benefit of themselfs when real issues (like large projectiles, the pilgrim and active tanking's uselessness on sub-cap's) go untouched.

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.25 23:48:00 - [59]
 

I honestly don't mind these changes so much, except that it seems like a lot of stuff at once. This isn't one nano change, and then a pause to see how it affects the game. It's a series of changes, some fairly radical. Also what bothers me is they gathered speeds on nano ships using t2 gear (ok, good, logical, makes sense) and a FULL HIGH-GRADE SNAKE SET (lulz). Now, certainly some pilots have such a set, but I think the vast majority of people don't spend that much on implants for their nano ships. Oh well.

I'd rather they try a few changes at a time, and use a decent benchmark when balancing these changes. If they're going to assume a full HG snake set, they might as well assume faction gear, since what's a few faction OD's compared to the price of those implants? Razz

That said, HOPEFULLY at this point, there's a Matar buff patch coming up in the somewhat-near future, considering our only strong point just got smacked with the nerf bat, haha.

verde bandit
Amarr
Tri-gun
Auctorita Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.26 02:23:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Zukira Al'Kalish
Seems to me that the Gallente are about to gain the upper hand in terms of highly effective Force Recon Ships...

There would still be counters, like Amarr ships. Those recons would get melted pretty fast if left alone.


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