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Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2008.08.14 02:01:00 - [4141]
 

Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.


LOL at "Balance".

In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD

Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.

A politician diverting over 100 million € gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.

Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.

Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.

So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.

And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent Laughing

Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.


You win this fraggin thread....

Glowy
Posted - 2008.08.14 06:01:00 - [4142]
 

Edited by: Glowy on 14/08/2008 06:11:04
Originally by: Haptic Roach
Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs


I've read this claim a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.

Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.

I suppose that somewhere near the very top of the PvP pile you'll find a small number of uber players that actually terrorize blobs with their nano ships. You'll find them in rarified outfits like Outbreak or Burn Eden, probably. You're not among these and if you were you would know that they'll just change tactics (EW+command ships most likely) and go right on pwning just as hard as they ever have.

So quit your whining about "countering blobs". The next gaggle of nano-punks I see gallantly assaulting a blob with their gistiis and snakes on the line will be the first.


marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.14 07:02:00 - [4143]
 

Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 07:03:16
Originally by: Glowy

I've read this claim a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.

Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.


Shut up tw*t you know nothing.

NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
Originally by: Glowy
I suppose that somewhere near the very top of the PvP pile you'll find a small number of uber players that actually terrorize blobs with their nano ships. You'll find them in rarified outfits like Outbreak or Burn Eden, probably. You're not among these and if you were you would know that they'll just change tactics (EW+command ships most likely) and go right on pwning just as hard as they ever have.


Outbreak suck and BE use ravens as there main ships although they do have some nano tackle and anti support obviously. Any good pvp outfit nano or not will already be using command ships for bonuses and most certainly already uses ewar, so maybe you should know wtf your talking about before you start trying to correct others.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.08.14 07:55:00 - [4144]
 

Originally by: marakor
NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.

So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.

Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat Twisted Evil

You've correctly identified the main reason nano is due a nerf, namely the near-invincibility you get when fitting for high speed.
First of all, you essentially can't get hit, and secondly, you can get out of lock/web/scramble range faster than people can lock you.

Nano-ships should die approximately as often as other ships..... and they (by a large margin) don't!
The nano pilots claim this is because they're the best of the best PvP gods.... but they're not! They've simply become too used to abusing a broken game mechanic, and now their ego can't cope with loosing their imagined status as elite pilots....

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.14 08:27:00 - [4145]
 

Trolling is not permitted on the forums. ~Saint

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.08.14 10:13:00 - [4146]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 14/08/2008 10:21:43
Originally by: marakor
NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.

Painted the relevant parts where you said what I interpreted!
Originally by: Kerfira
So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.

Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat Twisted Evil

But, as most nano-pilots, when you found your arguments countered, you resorted to insults, not arguments.

You're also still so very wrong on continuing to claim nano-pilots are the elite of the elite. They've simply been abusing broken game mechanics for so long they've deluded themselves into believing they're PvP gods.
On average, they're no better than other pilots, so on average they should die as often as other pilots of same experience. They don't!

Truth hurts.... I know...
It probably hurts even more that you'll soon loose that I-Win button you depend on to feel uber Twisted Evil

PS: My current 0.0 k/d ratio is about 750/25 or so. I've flown nano, and flown against nano. You'd probably be able to recognise my corp ticker if I posted with my main, but we don't post.
A nano-ship will be able to get out of any danger 9 out of 10 times when other ships would (and should) die. No ship should be able to commit to battle without significant risk, or in other words have a 'Get-out-of-jail-for-free' card, and it is exactly for that reason nano'ing is getting a truly well-deserved nerf!

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.14 11:42:00 - [4147]
 

Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 12:11:18
Quote:
Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.

Originally by: marakor
NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter.


The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed.

If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance.


If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills
.


Originally by: Kerfira

Painted the relevant parts where you said what I interpreted!


Added in red the parts you ignored so the meaning was interpreted your manipulative way instead of the truthful way. And also added what it was in response to (in yellow+blue) for relevance as well.

Now as you say your gangs may only be skilled enough to take on solo ratters (the bit in blue) but theirs plenty of corps and alliances skilled enough to take on the blob if its unskilled and badly made up and led, if not and its a well balanced well led and skilled gang we lose, (but at least there's a fight)..claiming it does not happen just because you are not good enough to do it is rank arrogance, ignorance and stupidity.

Originally by: Kerfira

But, as most nano-pilots, when you found your arguments countered, you resorted to insults, not arguments.

You're also still so very wrong on continuing to claim nano-pilots are the elite of the elite. They've simply been abusing broken game mechanics for so long they've deluded themselves into believing they're PvP gods.
On average, they're no better than other pilots, so on average they should die as often as other pilots of same experience. They don't!



Burn eden use ravens and apart from tackle and a bit of anti support they are not a NANO pvp corp, but i guess your gonna say they exploit cloaks now huh?.




Originally by: Kerfira
My current 0.0 k/d ratio is about 750/25 or so. I've flown nano, and flown against nano. You'd probably be able to recognise my corp ticker if I posted with my main, but we don't post.



Mine was around 6-700 Kills as well although 700-1k/d in the last MONTH or so and 90+% of that was not in a nano ship in fact i was flying caldari as that is what the gang was short of. You see a good pvp out fit asks its ppl for specific ships to balance out the gang it is not all speed and more speed like you clueless tards seem to think

Originally by: Kerfira
A nano-ship will be able to get out of any danger 9 out of 10 times when other ships would (and should) die. No ship should be able to commit to battle without significant risk, or in other words have a 'Get-out-of-jail-for-free' card, and it is exactly for that reason nano'ing is getting a truly well-deserved nerf!



YES YES PVP should be just like ratting with everybody sitting opposite each other until the side with any ships left can claim to be the winner...... i know i hear this a lot from skilless re*ards who want there ratting fit to also own all.


OH and Most gangs if they decide to warp off from a engagement will suffer minimal losses nano is hardly alone in that category, you really are a paper tiger aint ya.

Tequila Fish
Posted - 2008.08.14 12:13:00 - [4148]
 

Originally by: marakor


MAYBE YOU CAN TELL US WHY CRAP PLAYERS ALWAYS LOOK FOR SUMMAT TO BLAME OTHER THAN THEMSELVES, I MEAN WE ALL HAVE ACCESS TO THE SAME STUFF THE SAME TRAINING TIME THE SAME SKILL BOOKS AND SHIPS AND EQUIPMENT AND WE HAVE HAD ACCESS FOR YEARS. AND YET PPL LIKE YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL WHILE OTHERS SUCCEED, AND WHILE THATS INEVITABLE WHY BLAME IT ON SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE FOR ALL TO USE AND ALSO HAS PLENTY TO COUNTER IT, INSTEAD OF YOURSELVES?.




While this remark was intended to refute the need for a nanonerf it actually demonstrates you should have nothing to worry about. Surely the above statement will be equally true post nerf, that we will all still have the same access to training, skill books, ships and equipment. The question then marakor is whether you will adapt and be a player that succeeds post nerf or become one of those you berate for blaming something other than themselves (i.e. a nerf).

It seems clear that you and many others are trying to protect a broken system that has served you well. Whilst the system could in theory serve everyone equally well once they have the requisite skills and large sums of cash to nanofit it makes the game boring, as according to your logic everyone would one day fly nano or one of the few viable support roles which do not require nanofitting.

Basically stop whining because you are losing your advantage, the problem is not that a well nanofitted t2 ship is better than say a tech 1 normally fitted ship, but that it can be almost unstoppable except by other nanofits.

You and some others will lose out a little bit but the gain overall for everyone is massive. I just hope the changes actually implemented go far enough.

I fully expect and hope for an angry whinging reply. Just remember post nerf we will all as you state have access to the same stuff, so are you gonna be a crap player who looks for something to blame other than themselves or suck it up Shocked

Laughing

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.14 12:34:00 - [4149]
 

Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 13:00:00



Originally by: Tequila Fish
Originally by: marakor


MAYBE YOU CAN TELL US WHY CRAP PLAYERS ALWAYS LOOK FOR SUMMAT TO BLAME OTHER THAN THEMSELVES, I MEAN WE ALL HAVE ACCESS TO THE SAME STUFF THE SAME TRAINING TIME THE SAME SKILL BOOKS AND SHIPS AND EQUIPMENT AND WE HAVE HAD ACCESS FOR YEARS. AND YET PPL LIKE YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL WHILE OTHERS SUCCEED, AND WHILE THATS INEVITABLE WHY BLAME IT ON SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE FOR ALL TO USE AND ALSO HAS PLENTY TO COUNTER IT, INSTEAD OF YOURSELVES?.



Another attempt to justify lowering that bar by playing word games instead of eve.


Ive been playing for a long time pal and i can tell you that with every nerf its the pvpers that adapt and the same whiners who look for excuses and things to blame instead of them selves.

Removing nano is removing a hugely entertaining and skilled form of pvp from the game its a style that forces you to atually tackle a ship to kill it and within that need a great deal of tactical and individual piloting skill evolves.

Your tacklers need to web and point the target ship, your jammers need to deal with their webbers defending the target, your dps ships need to be in range but not get tackled themselves. Both sides maneuvering, pilots calling for jams on certain ships or for reps on themselves, target callers searching for valuable targets to be removed from the field and BOTH sides doing this at the same time in a huge dance for position.

The ppl who want rid on nano i know can NEVER have experienced such entertaining fights like these, where even if you lose the battle and get several ships popped while only killing one or two you go away thinking "what a ****ing awesome fight, THAT is why i play EVE". And THAT is why i know that all the ppl who are screaming for this nerf have never flown in a proper and skilled NANO/recon gang because if they had they would love it.

Without nano what will we have?, no need to really tackle as a good alpha strike off 10-20 ships will insta pop most cruiser sized ships, a BC what 2 volleys a BS 3 unless its extended or plated to hell the what 5 volleys?. Sniping with cloaks may increase until the nerfit blobbers cry that cloaking is broken and that they want to scan down cloakers so they can drop a blob on them (im sure they will phrase it better thoughWink).

This nerf is supported by the lazy and ignorant and they have no idea what they are missing and never will if it goes through.

Tequila Fish
Posted - 2008.08.14 13:44:00 - [4150]
 

My main point was that the nerf is going through and once it is through good players will adapt and do well and players who feel hard done by will whine about something else be it the nano nerf, cloaking, or something else. In this I think we agree, but as you consider yourself a good player why should you worry? The rules of the game will be different but the playing field will still be level. There, I've said it myself so don't accuse me of playing word games.

However, I can't agree that speed tanking will be completely dead or that the changes will lead to less fun in pvp. They are nerfing ludicrous speed, not speed in its entirety and what evolves in pvp will be fun too.

I'm glad you've had fun in your nano/recon gang engagements and yes it does sound fun, can't argue with that. However, the experience you describe sounds rather formulaic in the outfitting of ships and gangs (although not in the fight itself). I.e. you get a good fight when your nano/recon gang comes up against another similar one. Against anything else of a similar size but different makeup of ships I'm guessing you smite your opponents with few or any losses. Therefore combat has been becoming formulaic.

Post nerf I'm hoping that if you come up against a similar size gang with a different makeup of ships then yes if you are better organized, skilled and tactically balanced then you will win but maybe they will have a chance to take out a ship or two. Or if they have a different setup and are differently tanked but equally adept maybe then you'll have a good fight on your hands, just not the fight you were used to pre nerf.

More real options = more variety = more fun and less people feeling that the current balance leaves them limited options and penalises them for making other choices.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.14 14:17:00 - [4151]
 

Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 14:47:59



Originally by: Tequila Fish
My main point was that the nerf is going through and once it is through good players will adapt and do well and players who feel hard done by will whine about something else be it the nano nerf, cloaking, or something else. In this I think we agree, but as you consider yourself a good player why should you worry? The rules of the game will be different but the playing field will still be level. There, I've said it myself so don't accuse me of playing word games.


Im not worried im ****ed that a great form of pvp is being removed instead of having things added to the game to help the plenty of things already in the game to counter it.

Originally by: Tequila Fish
However, I can't agree that speed tanking will be completely dead or that the changes will lead to less fun in pvp. They are nerfing ludicrous speed, not speed in its entirety and what evolves in pvp will be fun too.


Its dead, get on the test server and try it bud its totally dead if this nerf goes through even ceptors are pretty easy to kill now.

Originally by: Tequila Fish
I'm glad you've had fun in your nano/recon gang engagements and yes it does sound fun, can't argue with that. However, the experience you describe sounds rather formulaic in the outfitting of ships and gangs (although not in the fight itself). I.e. you get a good fight when your nano/recon gang comes up against another similar one. Against anything else of a similar size but different makeup of ships I'm guessing you smite your opponents with few or any losses. Therefore combat has been becoming formulaic.


The fitting you may be surprised to hear needs to be varied as do the ship types, HACS and recons are normally prevalent (why fly t1 when you can fly t2 until the nerf that is) although other ships are included in a lot of our gangs. Against a badly led gang of ratting ships a good roaming gang will own, but against a RR BS gang or a fully mixed well led gang the nano/roaming gang will proly lose.

Ive flown in nano gangs, sniper gangs, RR gangs, fully mixed gangs plus all points inbetween and i can tell you that the best setup to beat a nano gang is not another nano gang its a fully mixed gang working well together.

Originally by: Tequila Fish
Post nerf I'm hoping that if you come up against a similar size gang with a different makeup of ships then yes if you are better organized, skilled and tactically balanced then you will win but maybe they will have a chance to take out a ship or two. Or if they have a different setup and are differently tanked but equally adept maybe then you'll have a good fight on your hands, just not the fight you were used to pre nerf.


Pro pvpers spend a lot on their ships and will never nor want to get into a slug fest against another gang that involves sitting opposite another gang and killing until one side or another runs out of ships.

If your hoping to see a mixed fleet of idiots heading into your space i can tell you that you will see no more than you do now as i know for a fact that myself, those that i fly with and those in other alliances like us have no intention of doing so..ever. If we have to we will find another way to engage that involves the use of skill instead of numbers and slug fest pvp and im sure the same muppets will cry exploit or nerf nerf instead of improving their skills and team work to counter us.

But as i say if this goes through its the end of something very special that a lot of ppl have missed out on and do not come close to understanding or they would be as ****ed as me and most of the ppl posting about it.

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2008.08.14 19:58:00 - [4152]
 

Originally by: marakor


Ive been playing for a long time pal and i can tell you that with every nerf its the pvpers that adapt and the same whiners who look for excuses and things to blame instead of them selves.

Removing nano is removing a hugely entertaining and skilled form of pvp from the game its a style that forces you to atually tackle a ship to kill it and within that need a great deal of tactical and individual piloting skill evolves.

Your tacklers need to web and point the target ship, your jammers need to deal with their webbers defending the target, your dps ships need to be in range but not get tackled themselves. Both sides maneuvering, pilots calling for jams on certain ships or for reps on themselves, target callers searching for valuable targets to be removed from the field and BOTH sides doing this at the same time in a huge dance for position.

The ppl who want rid on nano i know can NEVER have experienced such entertaining fights like these, where even if you lose the battle and get several ships popped while only killing one or two you go away thinking "what a ****ing awesome fight, THAT is why i play EVE". And THAT is why i know that all the ppl who are screaming for this nerf have never flown in a proper and skilled NANO/recon gang because if they had they would love it.

Without nano what will we have?, no need to really tackle as a good alpha strike off 10-20 ships will insta pop most cruiser sized ships, a BC what 2 volleys a BS 3 unless its extended or plated to hell the what 5 volleys?. Sniping with cloaks may increase until the nerfit blobbers cry that cloaking is broken and that they want to scan down cloakers so they can drop a blob on them (im sure they will phrase it better thoughWink).

This nerf is supported by the lazy and ignorant and they have no idea what they are missing and never will if it goes through.



100% correct. The problem is that a given share of the player community don't play for fun, but for all out winning. Those are mainly the kind of players that will never understand how you manage to loose a 1 bil ship against a few boats totaling less than 100 mil, and you still come out happy, because you had FUN. And why whas it FUN ? Because those inferior ships where led by BRAINS who managed to counter a theoretical superior opponent.

Obviously, CCP makes more money by leveling the game requirements to the average IQ of the generic player. We can be confident that as a money making venture (nothing wrong with that), they have certainly enough studies defining the player profile which will bring optimal benefits.

After all these years, IIRC my mains are quietly reaching a combined 160 mil sp, almost all in PvP. So like many other players, I will still kick ass if I want, no matter if using rr BS, cap drops or whatever. If it will still be funny when nanowarfare as an alternative will be dead is another matter...

Haptic Roach
Posted - 2008.08.15 01:07:00 - [4153]
 

Originally by: Glowy
Edited by: Glowy on 14/08/2008 06:11:04
Originally by: Haptic Roach
Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs


I've read this claim a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.




You are showing your inexperience here. I have personally been larger gangs taken on by smaller well coordinated nano gangs - and we lost big time but was inspired by the pure skill it took to do that. I have never been in one of those nano gangs because i have never been in such a specialized corp.

And no not by the outfits you mentioned - again, just shows you don't know what you are talking about.

You don't need a nano gang to take out ratters - just a ceptor and a cruiser or BC.

Bottom line - this change will take away some of the interesting variation in eve - that is bad for everyone.



Hab0k
Posted - 2008.08.15 04:29:00 - [4154]
 


Quote:
So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.

Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat Twisted Evil

You've correctly identified the main reason nano is due a nerf, namely the near-invincibility you get when fitting for high speed.
First of all, you essentially can't get hit, and secondly, you can get out of lock/web/scramble range faster than people can lock you.

Nano-ships should die approximately as often as other ships..... and t hey (by a large margin) don't!
The nano pilots claim this is because they're the best of the best PvP gods.... but they're not! They've simply become too used to abusing a broken game mechanic, and now their ego can't cope with loosing their imagined status as elite pilots....



Hehe, We are people who poor 25m sp into speed. so thats why we go so fast... i didnt say that nanos need to be nerfed i said that all nanos do is use a diff tactic. if noobs cant counter thats there fault... atm there are so many ways to kill a nano fleet... and in no way nanos are overpowered... u lock a ship with an mwd on you lock faster! its called scan rez and mwds amp it about 600% if you have skills... so dont tell me you cant lock them before they excape... and even if they coast out they still do stop. so dont bash me unless you understand every single peice of the story

Surrah
Supra Tenetur
Posted - 2008.08.16 05:13:00 - [4155]
 

I haven't read through the over 100 pages of comments on this topic. I just wanted to air a thought. As far as webbers go, why not make them like a tractor beam type thing (I know we already have tractor beams but you can't use them on anything but cans and wrecks, and then only the ones you have rights to), it has an attractive, magnetic force and uses the masses, thrusts and relative velocities of the two ships involved to determine the outcome.

For instance, if you were in a frigate and webbing a frigate, the two frigates (relatively same mass and sitting still) would be drawn together. Where if the target was running from the webber, the target would be slowed and the webbing ship would be accelerated, and if they were already moving toward each other you would get a slingshot effect increasing the speed of both.

This also eliminates the risk-less use of a webber. Currently using a web slows the other guy and using multiples will effectively stop him. If it gets changed like I'm suggesting, using a webber is going to effect you, potentially more than your target. It also gives the targeted person the opportunity to use their head to use the effect in a manner that will benefit them, rather than just being toasted. If you wanted to hold a frigate still and make it immobile, you would need 2, 3 or maybe 4 other frigates pulling in opposed dirctions to out mass it enough to keep it from moving. Because using 2 webbers on the same target would effectively just double the strength of the attraction making it harder to pull away, and or break away.

If, say you had a frigate webbing a BS, given the mass difference the frigate is going to get towed along with the BS. What this will do is allow the web to be effective for the frigate, but not so much for the frigate's gang. It doesn't make a whole lot of since that a tiny frigate can web a BS anyhow. I hate to make references to the real, but I'm going to in this case. The way that work in my head, is attach a bungee cord between an 80,000lb tractor trailer and a Mini Cooper. That little Mini is going for a ride unless it stretches the bungee to the breaking point. Thats how webbers should work in my head.

Not only does it make a little bit of since, but it will introduce a lot of tactical options. Say you want to move a cruiser up from the rear guard really quickly, use 2 or 3 of your front line BS's to web that cruiser and sling shot it to the front. With a little bit of timing and practice you could get your webbers off just at is makes the pass at the apex of its velocity.

As an interceptor, you could use a webber not to slow your opponent, but to increase your radial velocity. Because you effectively have a string holding you closer to another ship you should be able to orbit faster at any given distance because you are being helped in the turn by the web.

Beyond all the fun that would generate with ship to ship stuff, writing the programming would set the groundwork for really cool environmental situations. Gravity wells or black holes anyone? Maybe you are chasing someone and they get a little too close to a black hole (you really don't want to go into one of those) then to your surprise they throw on a web and drag you along for the ride! Or Maybe you are out in your BS and you get stuck in a gravity well. You have to call in your buddies to throw a web on you and help pull you out, the old tow rope for the win!

This will also give blaster boats a viable alternative to MWD's, as they can pull their target in rather than running to it.

You could go another step and give it scripts, one for attract, and one for repel. Then you can counter a web with a web, not just MWD or AB.

This is probably a ******ed idea that would require a crap ton of programming, but it would be neat to me, and add depth to the game. All of our ships and objects in the game already have all of these attributes and statistics(mass, thrust, volume, etc.), it seems such a waste to not use them.

Zaethiel
Infinity Research
Posted - 2008.08.17 23:08:00 - [4156]
 

Edited by: Zaethiel on 17/08/2008 23:10:07
If nano ships are useless after the nerf then a good portion of shield tankers will be gone as well, since most nano ships are either untanked or passive shield tanked. We are going to see a revival of armor tankers dominating eve with command ships and battleships dominating once more; they can tank the most and deal the most damage. HAC popularity should drop off drastically as most HACs cannot compete with Command Ships without superior maneuvorability, which will be signifcantly reduced post nerf.

It will be interesting to see where the vagabond stands after the nerf.
Personally i'm going to stock up on Drakes since they are l337.



Originally by: Joey Meow
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.


LOL at "Balance".

In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD

Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.

A politician diverting over 100 million € gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.

Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.

Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.

So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.

And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent Laughing

Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.


You win this fraggin thread....


Second that FTW Rolling Eyes

bundy bear
Posted - 2008.08.19 00:01:00 - [4157]
 

Edited by: bundy bear on 19/08/2008 00:01:55
Originally by: Joey Meow
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.


LOL at "Balance".

In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD

Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.

A politician diverting over 100 million € gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.

Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.

Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.

So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.

And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent Laughing

Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.


You win this fraggin thread....


By using a real life comparison to describe balance?

Balance in eve is whatever the GM's want it to be. If they have decided that a tactic is too overpowered they will nerf it back in line. Its up to all the people that used this tactic to adapt.

we realy dont need any overdone real life comparison to describe that.

Edit: spelling

Le Cardinal
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.08.19 13:02:00 - [4158]
 

My biggest worry is this: Have they tweaked the dread gurista webber? It sucks and it hurts my feelings.

On the topic itself. I mainly fly 2 races. Minnie and caldari. Good thing i started tweaking my caldari skills a couple of months ago. This change will result in what always happen. The good and skilled players adapt and the new players will still die horrible and embarrassing deaths. Rince and repeat.

Sad thing with the guerilla warfare part. Anyone done any proper tests on sisi?


Wyliee
Taurus Inc
THE KLINGONS
Posted - 2008.08.19 21:22:00 - [4159]
 

as i read this thread again, i cant help but feel tired about the way things go in eve.

i have been playing over 2 years now, and god know how many hours sat here watching the pixcels move.

it makes me sad to see time investment wiped out, i guess is the bottom line here. i wonder if CCP care about us older players that have all the invested effort and trainins and choices we made. i cant get 12 months of training back just coz nanos are useless now can i.

im sick of the nerf bat, im sure there is a better way perhaps more effort is needed from ccp to do this but after all on a £million+ a month turnover im sure they have the resourses.

personally
i vote for webbing scripts 50% long range and 90% short or there abouts. and bring polycarbs into line with nanos.

and leave it at that.

i already have high skilled players who love the hac style of play, not bothering to login coz of this coming up.

think about it.

Dan Grensson
Taurus Inc
THE KLINGONS
Posted - 2008.08.19 21:35:00 - [4160]
 

Edited by: Dan Grensson on 19/08/2008 21:39:27
"overall variety and inventive gameplay is being boosted"

From what I've seen and heard, this patch will drastically reduce the effectivness of nano-fitted ships, which represent the primary alternative to heavy ship warfare as I call it. I'm not a 0.0 resident, but it seems to me that this will result in few, if any, alternative to simply fielding a more powerful force than your opponent.

Perhaps the suggestion of more inventive gameplay being boosted is valid, for a period, until the viable tactics under the new mechanics become well established, but I would say that overall variety has been reduced, that this moves EVE closer to all-out blob warfare.

And please, your graphs showing how the MWD speeds arn't significantly changed are patronising at best. You cant compare the base MWD speed of ships before and after to show the balance changes when its the nano/overdrive/etc changes which are the big change.

Balance polycarbs, maybe balance the weight of some ships to change the effectivness of MWDs on them, or balance the whole range of speed modules, within reason, but dont go and completely rewrite the mechanics of a major PvP tactic. It's not like the old days of 10km/s Phoons all over the place.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.20 14:03:00 - [4161]
 

Edited by: marakor on 20/08/2008 21:15:30

Originally by: Dan Grensson

"overall variety and inventive gameplay is being boosted"


Wrong.

before the nerf a nano gang was used for roaming because it was so versatile and had a "chance" to be effective. It consisted of:

HAC's, recons, command ships, logistics, hics, dics, ceptors (even t1 variations of there ships could be used).

Obviously the defender has the advantage of being able to swap out into any ship he has in his hangar depending on what is needed so a anti nano gang would consist of:

Ceptors/friggies (fast tacklers)
Cruisers/battlecruisers (dps)
Hacs (nano fitted to help tackle or kill)
Recons (jamming/webbing/nueting)
Command ships (bonuses+dps)
Logistics (keeping tacklers and others alive)
Nuet fitted BS (dps+cap killer/tackle)

Now after the NANO nerf do you really think your gonna need all those ships and the team work to fight a slow ass roaming gang?:

Ceptors/friggies (why bother when a bubble or two can stop warp offs and the gang is to slow to get out of it before popping).

Hacs(your kidding right a 100mil waste of space)

Recons(pointless as anything can now be easily hit and so alpha strike'd to death).

Command ships(no need as BC are a cheaper option).

Logistics (maybe but if your using heavily insured BC they are hardly much of a loss).

Nuet fitted BS (why bother with a nuet when the alpha off a single dps fitted bs can almost insta most cruisers, in fact why bother flying BS at all as the insured BC is a much better option).


So what are we left with?...oh yes BC, and maybe hics, dics and logistics if you can be bothered to bring them.

Sylvmar
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.21 07:20:00 - [4162]
 

I've not read the 139 pages of replies so soz if this have been said before.

It seem to me that there are too many changes proposed with too many variables, do the devs really believe they can predict the outcomes?

Nano seems to be an exciting development of gameplay (even if it was not under the control of the devs). Instead of nerfing it out of the game, why not add aspects that help counter it?

Here's where I get flamed: One example might be a rig destabilizing module. Assault frigates could have a bonus for this module.



Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2008.08.21 08:36:00 - [4163]
 

Edited by: Semkhet on 21/08/2008 08:36:52
Originally by: bundy bear

By using a real life comparison to describe balance?

Balance in eve is whatever the GM's want it to be. If they have decided that a tactic is too overpowered they will nerf it back in line. Its up to all the people that used this tactic to adapt.

we realy dont need any overdone real life comparison to describe that.

Edit: spelling


Don't get me started with this kind of crap. Everything relates to RL like it or not. You're a RL living being, not some disney toon. Same for the money you pay your subscription with. And it's this RL element which perpetuates RL CCP's existence. Everything is correlated.

It's not because we are talking about a game that player's cognitive responses to interactions are virtual. Would you have the smallest clue about cognitive mechanisms, you would know that it is almost impossible to distinguish a neuronal process triggered within a virtual environment from a process triggered within a real environment if the immersion reaches an appropriate level. Why ? Because most humans REACT rather than THINKING before ACTING. It is one of the reasons why Spec Ops soldiers are 35 years old or more... It takes years of training to learn how to prioritize your mind over instinctive reactions, specially when you have a very limited time to both take a decision and then implement it.

Anyhow, each aspect of EvE which tends to slow down the pace of the game renders the whole premise more unattractive. Why should I log on a game which trumpets the amount of simultaneously logged in players as feature if I end fighting peeps who show less originality than any NPC of a third-class shooter of the 90's due to artificially imposed limitations ?

As I said, all they had to do was implementing a 200% falloff on webs, and bring missiles up to speed. But no, let's turn EvE into a contest of snails and turtles. For Pete's sake, Jules Verne was way more SciFi than all this BS...

CoLe Blackblood
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.08.21 18:35:00 - [4164]
 

What's to blame for the nanocide? Rigs.

Rigs brought on the first nerf, because fools figured out how to go 20kms in typhoons. Understandable. First nerf with coinciding removal of the offending MWD booster rig.

Remove polycarbs, remove snakes and you will still have fast ships, just not ungodly fast.

This upcoming nerf is fine, but a real compromise is the rig snake removal.

My worry is where will the next ***** come from. What playstyle will disappear next?

Zuko Droner
Dominion of Chaos
Posted - 2008.08.22 13:19:00 - [4165]
 

Originally by: CoLe Blackblood
What's to blame for the nanocide? Rigs.

Rigs brought on the first nerf, because fools figured out how to go 20kms in typhoons. Understandable. First nerf with coinciding removal of the offending MWD booster rig.

Remove polycarbs, remove snakes and you will still have fast ships, just not ungodly fast.

This upcoming nerf is fine, but a real compromise is the rig snake removal.

My worry is where will the next ***** come from. What playstyle will disappear next?


The one that is most effective.

Paulette
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:54:00 - [4166]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie

I propose again: add the amount of bonus from mwd as malus to agility. 500% more speed = 500% less agile. PROBLEMS SOLVED!


really this makes a lots of sense make the MWD a get away thing only, not a I own you module...

Moggy TheCat
Minmatar
S0utherN Comfort
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2008.08.23 12:37:00 - [4167]
 

i run threw all the pages and read some interesting and some nonsence comments

me as a non Nano pilot are interested in

Arrowdoes the nanonerf effect my T1 Mwd on a transportship ( blockade runner )

Arrowand if a heavy interdictor shows up can he switch off my mwd with his field

And yes in my opinion the game need some speed balancing
it cant be that a ship (same class i.e cruiser) fly faster than a max. skilled missile
there is just a simple way to get rid of all problems with the speed. as eve is a skill based game. so u must have a chance to engage a nanoship with good skilled chars.

what i mean is give all ship just a maximum speed and dont change mwds and so on.
if the maximum speed is reached and u go over it ( thanks to fitting and implants) u
run like overheat into structur. If u overrun your max speed you engage your structural
integrity means u take hull damage over time while over max speed.

or another idea could be to make it impossible to fire missiles if your speed is over the missile velocity, cos they will explode within your launcher ( like that cyno exploid )

but the speedfactor and the structural integrity sound more (eve)-realistic than any
change to moduls i can buy/build

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.23 13:15:00 - [4168]
 

Originally by: Moggy TheCat

there is just a simple way to get rid of all problems with the speed. as eve is a skill based game. so u must have a chance to engage a nanoship with good skilled chars.


We do they are called webs, nuets and points and if you in a skilled group they work great.






Originally by: Moggy TheCat
or another idea could be to make it impossible to fire missiles if your speed is over the missile velocity, cos they will explode within your launcher ( like that cyno exploid )



So much for the theory of relativity then hey bud lol.

If the missiles are in your tubes they are already going at the speed your traveling ffs, although its odd that in eve mechanics as soon as they clear your tubes they come to a sudden stop then accelerate and travel at there own speed.Shocked

N3oXr2ii
X10 PUNISHM4NT
Posted - 2008.08.23 21:46:00 - [4169]
 

i have never come across a nano'd ship so i thought this nerf would not affect me but i read and get shocked with this a webber nerf wtf i thought the hole point was to slow these ships down and it does seem like ur nerfin the blasterboat why not just give all ships a max speed that solves the whole problem without nerfing anything but hey when did ccp ever listen to us

Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.08.23 21:50:00 - [4170]
 

Well what happened to the new nerf? You were going to rethink? hmm when do i get this shaft everyone is talking about will it be a low slot item?


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