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marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.10 09:04:00 - [4111]
 

Edited by: marakor on 10/08/2008 09:45:32
Originally by: Vrinimous

Some tacklers will always die in an engagement, that's the way it should be, no-one should be able to attack with impunity.


Do you not find it a paradox that CCP on one hand say they need to add and change modules so ppl can be tackled and thus killed. Then change the game so they do not need to be tackled at all?.



Originally by: Vrinimous
The mwd gets you close (as now), the ab helps you continue some speed after an mwd shutdown, maintains your transversal (if you like) and helps keep your tackler (or whatever) alive. It only helps, mind you. My comment was just a thought on how else, perhaps, to fit mid-slots.


It does'nt work or help in the least its worthless to fit both in a gang fight. You should really get on the test server and try it cos after losing tackler after tackler you may understand the problem.



Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.08.10 10:11:00 - [4112]
 

Originally by: Stab Wounds
[Ishtar, shield]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dark Blood Small Nosferatu
[empty high slot]

Core Defence Field Purger II
Core Defence Field Purger II

Ogre II x5

DPS: 634

Defense: 904

Rolling Eyes

HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.


Laughing

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.10 11:04:00 - [4113]
 

What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.

A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favourite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2008.08.10 12:52:00 - [4114]
 

Edited by: marakor on 10/08/2008 13:24:46


Originally by: Patch86
What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.

A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favorite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game.


As per usual with ppl supporting this nerf you are fixating on a utterly rare and extreme fit to give credit to unneeded changes.

Try to find a group of anti-nerf ppl who care about the extreme fits your talking about bud it will be very hard to find even one as most do not give a toss or care about the 30kms fits or the multi multi billion isk fit BS that go faster than basically fitted frigs.

This nerf has changed gang fights from "tackle it to kill it" to "alpha it to kill it", now that is called breaking the game and removing the need for skill and team work bud.

Abrynn
Minmatar
CCCP INC
Posted - 2008.08.10 18:36:00 - [4115]
 

Edited by: Abrynn on 10/08/2008 18:38:40
Originally by: Patch86
What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.

A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favourite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game.


you correct that is stupid but this nerf is also stupid....i agree a speed nerf is needed but not like this this nerfs alot of game mechanics not just one or 2 and a whole race...instead of all this crazy crap this Dev who has prolly never played the game wants to do (/me points to carrier nerf proposal) it simply takes a speed cap thats it your ship cant go no faster than whatever speed it should go due to mass .... no way should a BS be able to catch anything that isnt a BS totally agreed....

Abrynn
Minmatar
CCCP INC
Posted - 2008.08.10 18:44:00 - [4116]
 

i just wanted to point this out this is the actual discription of the vaga ingame


Hull: Stabber Class
Role: Heavy Assault Ship

The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat.

Developer: Thukker Mix

Improving on the original Stabber design, Thukker Mix created the Vagabond as a cruiser-sized skirmish vessel equally suited to defending mobile installations and executing lightning strikes at their enemies. Honoring their tradition of building the fastest vessels to ply the spacelanes, they count the Vagabond as one of their crowning achievements.

Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to max velocity per level

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff range and 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage per level

notice the bonus to SPEED!!!!! CCP get your heads out your ass.............

Davina Braben
Posted - 2008.08.10 23:24:00 - [4117]
 

It only specifies that it is "The fastest cruiser".

How fast does being "the fastest cruiser" require it to be?

Otto Traugott
Posted - 2008.08.11 00:22:00 - [4118]
 

Your proposed adjustments to ABs seem rather odd to me, especially in light of what you wish to accomplish. If you want to make afterburners more viable in PvP (especially relative to MWD), then I would suggest increasing their bonus both on the top and lower ends:

105% - 171% --> 150% - 225% (or maybe even 175% - 250%)

This adjustment provides a better middle ground between no propulsion upgrades and MWDs as well as increasing the combat value of AB modules. Note that modern jet fighters (i.e., here on humble Earth) have afterburners that provide a boost of 140% - 170% to speed. In an era of warp drives and space travel, I think technology can do much better, especially in a space environment of no wind resistance.

Doctor Mabuse
Posted - 2008.08.11 09:56:00 - [4119]
 

Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 11/08/2008 09:59:06
Originally by: Abrynn
i just wanted to point this out this is the actual discription of the vaga ingame...



And yet again:

Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
And those peeps who keep copying the Vagabond ship description? Well that's like saying MS Windows is a fantastic OS because, well, Microsoft say so


Ship description based stats ftl. Its just manufacturers advertising after all Rolling Eyes

Perhaps you should look through all the other ship descriptions and see how many of them exaggerate their ships capabilities, or is the Vaga description different because you think it proves your point?

edit: Ironically the Vaga has one of the few descriptions which is actually true. It is, and will remain post speed-buff, the fastest cruiser in the game.

Vengal Seyhan
Minmatar
Sudden Buggery
Posted - 2008.08.11 09:57:00 - [4120]
 

Originally by: Amarr Holymight
Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 06/08/2008 16:30:00
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Stab Wounds
[Ishtar, shield]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dark Blood Small Nosferatu
[empty high slot]

Core Defence Field Purger II
Core Defence Field Purger II

Ogre II x5

DPS: 634

Defense: 904

Rolling Eyes

HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.


This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.


I tried this fit on SISI last week ur basically just flying an expensive Drake with a DPS/Tank tradeoff, whats the point?


I have to assume it's a joke.

This is an absolutely stellar PvE fit vs Serpentis and Gurista, with a change to a couple of hardeners... you can solo L5s and you can run most plexes of the appropriate type.

The lack of mobility on this fit means that PvP is only going to be done in a large fleet where you project your drones forward and you hang back at 60km++ (So why use Ogres? They're slow as a glacier). The guns are only for taking out drones that might have the temerity to engage you.

Zerg Defiler
Zerg Hive
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:21:00 - [4121]
 


Marqui De'Xentura
The Perfect Storm
Posted - 2008.08.11 17:45:00 - [4122]
 

It is bewildering how so many sit and look at when devs decide to change something, they will biaatch and moan so they don't have to overcome the next challenge. I have seen so many changes in the game that can be considered both good and bad. I think what people really need to look at is there are 2 mods now that really need to be adjusted to bring viability back to them. Yes there are things that will not make them ideal for everyone, however it does not mean it can not be overcome.

The 2 point scram has needed something fixed with them for years now. The disabling of a MWD brings them back into a viable mod to fit, does that mean everyone and their dog will fit them? Probably not, due to the problem they have always had, the range. Does that mean ships that get a bonus to them will use them, I am certain they will. If you also look at the ships that get the bonus, they need some help regardless.

The AB has definitely needed some help especially for PVP. This can be done in 1 of 2 ways either boost it or cut the effectiveness of webs and bring other ships speeds in line. Even by boosting it if you get hit by current T2 Webs, your speed is -90% so that 500m/s you were doing is now down to 50m/s, most times you won't get hit by just 1 but by multiple. Bringing you to a complete stop, so the obvious option is to cut the effectiveness of the webs. Does that mean Min pilots are going to complain hell yeah they will, but get over it you will still have a viable ship and mod.

Now rebalancing all ships across the board. It does make some sense, however the way it is being done from a physics stand point does not make any sense. A Larger Vessel is expected to go faster than a smaller vessel, primarily due to the ability to fit larger engines, now that larger vessel should not have a faster agility or take off speed than the smaller vessel. (This is factoring in Gravity, but this doesn't apply in a 0-grav) Example look a motorcycle vrs a Tractor Trailor. The weight and momentum of the Tractor Trailor will be able to attain the high-end speeds the motorcycle can do, but it can not get there as fast or stop in the same amount of time.

Now to hear all the cry baby's try to flame me for my opinions and before you do, yes I have tested this proposed change on Sisi and if your too dam stupid to figure out how to turn it into an advantage, maybe you should go play something alittle easier like WoW. For all the Nano PvPers that want to cry, yes I can and do fly Nano's does it mean you can't overcome this no. My history I have been playing this game since July 2003 and am over 60mil sp yeah I had some breaks. When I am able to spend more time in the game vrs R/L I get on aver of 100kills/month with 80% of those being solo, be it in nano or tanks.

The vaga pilots get over oh my ship is now screwed, quit biatching and test to figure out how to overcome this. There are alot of viable options. You crying would be like me continuing to cry about give me back my resists getting my armor tank to 99% resists across the board on my bship so I only have to fit a small t1 armor repper. Rolling Eyes Just how fracking stupid would that be just because you can't figure out how to overcome this challenge. This does not kill small guerrilla tactics but will definitely make doing so a different strategy and not doing it with any and every ship they can dump enough isk and mods into. I will certainly expect to see a lot more Arazu's out there if it does go through, but again they won't be Gods by any means.

Swren1
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.08.11 18:13:00 - [4123]
 

ok, yes 18k etc with command ship bonus is ridiculos.... but c'mon vagabond / hacs do not have the tanking abilties available and makes this ship class useless in solo pvp and big fleet pvp, you stand absolutly no chance in suriving with hacs really anymore. - thanks for that Evil or Very Mad!!! solo pvp nerfed/no more ??/??/08 ccp signed Very Happy

Vrinimous
Posted - 2008.08.11 19:43:00 - [4124]
 

Well, after reading all 138 pages of this thread, I have decided that, as it really doesn't matter whether you approve or disapprove of the changes (they're coming in regardless), some people, perhaps all people, will have to change their play style.

And that's all to the good - a good shake-up never hurt anybody.

Also, given the fact that it's very difficult to show tone of voice, emphasis, sarcasm, a lightness of touch, etc., within the language as she is typed, I have decided that all my future thoughts on this subject will be communicated to you all through the medium of...



...DANCE!



tra la

Thorradin
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.08.12 01:44:00 - [4125]
 

Originally by: Selnix
Sorry to tell you guys, but you are likely just wasting your time by making all of these posts. When Interdictor speeds were nerfed in late 2007, there was a thread that was kept alive for 6 months with suggestions and comments regarding why the nerf was wrong and how it had utterly destroyed a style of play along with an entire class of ships as well as with requests for GM/Dev response.

Response thread to the Dev's first time making this mistake.

Granted, not all of the posts were well-reasoned and not all of them were even remotely logical. The crux of the situation is that despite 6 months of their players asking for help to make what they had once flown (some to the point of exclusivity) viable once more, the thread received exactly 0 replies from the Devs and GMs. If they can completely ignore the player base for 6 months it seems quite unlikely that they will listen to you guys after just a couple of weeks, despite the higher post count given this change is planned to destroy more than just one small specialty ship class.

It would be nice if CCP would choose to learn from and rectify their earlier mistake instead of implementing a larger and more far-reaching version of it.



Aren't dictors getting faster base speeds from this change and being made faster overall in comparison to other ships?Razz

speedcat
Gallente
Human Liberty Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.12 11:45:00 - [4126]
 

Well I haven't read all the pages but I can say as a Gallente I totally disagree with this changes... they are too much in one change.
I for sure agree that the game itself (not just single ships) but a Vagabond especially are too fast. It's just a bad joke that a HAC is as fast or faster than an interceptor.
It's also a bad joke that a Battleships is as fast as a cruiser.

As always I have spaceship movies in my mind and the epic fights they do there. But always I'm watching these movies (btw also the trailers of EvE) I know what's wrong with the gameplay itself.

Everything is too fast not just the ships... the travel itself from one end of the universe to the other, the clonejumping idea, everything is too fast. This has to change in future to guarantee a different playstyle. There has to be done massive changes.

But not in a single patch. And not this way...

My suggestion for this patch are, that the so called "speedy gonzales" ships get cut with penalties or malus on the speed modules like suggested by the Devs.

But don't touch "Webbers" as you also can do nothing about speed if you Nerf the main modul to hold speedy ships. This is just a very bad idea, sorry CCP.

My idea for another view of the things is that in space normally an object can go as fast as you get it boosted/speeded up. But then the "thing/object" will go steady ahead with that speed without any active module, right?

That in mind the speed-modules (MWD, AB) should be modules which have to accelerate AND decelerate the vehicle/object in space. So there would be values which combined with the mass of the ship automatically result in a maximum speed of the ship cause for higher speeds the module has longer to break down to zero again.
Also there should be no energy use if the ship has the reached the manually defined or maximum speed as this is just not correct in space.
Of course this is getting complex to handle manually so this should be integrated in
the modules itself. The idea to have a cap negative bonus for MWD is correct as exactly this should be the buffer for the engine to accelerate and break but not to hold speed. This should be also adapted to the Afterburner.

In one sentence: The max. speed should be calculated on the basis of a few values out of the ship... there is a mass to be accelerated and decelerated again... to do this the power of the engine as well as the ships mass is essential... to maneuver a ship well, there should be a given time to every ship class in which it has to reach max. speed and max. speed to zero again or something.

Just an idea.

best regards,
speed



Good Samaritan
Minmatar
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
Posted - 2008.08.12 12:33:00 - [4127]
 

I think what has been proposed is a bit much. I agree that interceptors with speeds of 10KMS + do need a bit of a slow down, as do HACS / Faction ships which can achive 7KMS +.

What you must consider is the amount of time and effort put into training and fitting these ships VS the amount of effort required to counter them. For instance my crow will do 10KMS but to do so requires quite a specialist fit, round 100 mill on rigs alone.Is it then fair to assume that a battle cruiser should be able to take me out just because the guy flying it wants his ship to be able to do everything?

Its quite easy to take down a speed tanked ship if you have the correct setup. Several drone navigation computers can have warrior II going 10kms + and a light missile caracal can also easily shoot down speeding ships.

Whats required I feel are more dedicated anti speed modules for specific ships. The minmatar recons are a good example of such ships, with bonus to webs. Perhaps some of the interceptor class ships should be given bonus`s to web range and strength? or perhaps implement the 7.5kms MWD killing scramblers to these or other specific ships.

Either way I feel it will be unfair if speed tankers can be despatched by cheap setups with little invested skill when they cost so much time and money to set them up.

Also consider the effect these nerfs will have on the speed mod economy and the minmatar race ships in particular. Vagas arnt going to be much use , nor will rep fleet stabbers. So its not really fair on the people who produce such items either.

In conclusion :

YES to more specific anti speed ships bonus`s, interceptors with specific anti speed bonus`s ect. Make it so speedy ships can be counterd with the use of an equal investment.

NO to a poorly thought out general speed nerf. EVE is unique because it has so many diverse playstyles. If somone is good at a particular playstyle and has spent time and money on it then they deserve to have an advantage over somone who would rather whinge about being owned than think about how best to counter that playstyle.

Love and Kisses

GS

Voreshem MalDoran
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.12 16:43:00 - [4128]
 

Personally, I believe that this KILLS the usage of an interceptor, I agree with many of the other posts about how a ceptor after this nerf will be able to be countered by a caracal with light missiles, or warrior 2s with a few drone navs. If this nerf goes as followed WHAT will an interceptor be for? Those who regularly PVP already know how to counter a ceptor that goes in excess of 10km/s, a. neut ship, b. other ceptors, or c. Huginn/Rapier...

I believe that this nerf if FAR too complex and too many things will have to be implemented in order to make it all fair. All these special mods, special bonuses, etc. I also believe that this will kill gallente blaster boat tactics, kill the use on the interceptor, and only give rise to large gangs.

I do have a couple suggestions though.

I believe that a thing in eve to encourage is SPECIALIZATION, so

1. Another class of T2 Cruiser "Heavy Interceptors" with special speed bonuses, or the ability to fit a specialized MWD.

2. Special MWD mod for interceptors which make it exempt from the warpscrambler boost, which also provides a special speed boost so that there isn't a need for overdrives, or polycarbs so the interceptor becomes a more viable combat option.

and / or

3. Increase the Heavy interdictor's bubble radius and have it disable MWDs as well, because if you're going to kill most other viable battle tactics, you may as well do it for everyone........

In this game, there should be ways for players to counter tactics and specialization, but it should come from knowledge of your opponent's ship type, and tactics, not from nerfing everyone's abilities.

Everything Nano can already be countered, you just need the right amount of specialization.
Example

nano vaga, countered by nano huginn, nano curse, or a couple ceptors. (if the vaga wants to warpjam you, he has to get within web/neut range, if he doesn't send ceptors)

Cerberus with missile speed rigs can also take out many nano cruisers.

10km/s + ceptors? not a worry, send a few ceptors after it, OR wait for them to make a mistake and use a huginn / curse.

I believe that the interceptor fills a very much needed tactical niche which would be totally killed by this patch plan (along with many other tactical plans which this plan would kill)

It's not that we need this patch, it's that we need to encourage more thinking, more planning, and more specialization amongst players. I think that there's a counter to every tactic in EVE, you just have to know it, and have to have the skills.

In my opinion, it's FAR better to be able to fly 3 ship types of one race with excellence than fly 8 classes of all races....

People don't stretch your skillpoints so thin. it takes time to counter everything. Think, and be prepared.

Vladameir Harkenin
Posted - 2008.08.12 17:41:00 - [4129]
 

Edited by: Vladameir Harkenin on 12/08/2008 20:42:33
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse


Oh I don't know, perhaps you could bring something small and tanked to turn off your targets MWD and web him, and AF or two maybe, and then close to deal some major DPS. You know, brings some friends.

Its kinda like the nanosaurs telling us we had to bring a rapier, or had to use neuts or had to fit all our ships specifically and have a certain gang composition to take them on with one of the many 'apparent' counters.

At last we have some different options, you could possibly try some...





Or you could do it the intelligent way, train amarr bs rank 5, train large energy weapon rank 5, train pulse laser spec rank 4 and poof, problem solved...although this doesn't solve the problem only shows the imbalance of the situation.

Yes you should bring some specialized ships and setting up your ship in a certain way to kill a gang that is specifically setup. Why do you think rr gangs are good at breaking up gate camps? Because they absorb the damage, they are specifically setup to breach gate camps. Does this mean they are overpowered, no, they have to use tactics in order to keep each other alive (timing is key), they have to use strategy to kill there enemy instead of target locking whatever comes through the gate and shooting it.

It's not there fault the gate camp probably consisted of whatever said pilot decided to fly for the day instead of the gang specifically setting up for sole purpose.

Kery Syander
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.12 19:20:00 - [4130]
 

I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)... and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:01:00 - [4131]
 

Originally by: Kery Syander
I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)...



You can't really compare the trouble a nano-has can do with the one of a passive drake. The passive drake will be slow as a brick, won't kill you without tackling mods, will have ****ty dps, won't be able to escape unfavorable odds.

Overall, that's a setup for pvp noobs, who make their own survival more important that what they bring to their gang...

Quote:

and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel.


Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?

And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship.

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:15:00 - [4132]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kery Syander
I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)...



You can't really compare the trouble a nano-has can do with the one of a passive drake. The passive drake will be slow as a brick, won't kill you without tackling mods, will have ****ty dps, won't be able to escape unfavorable odds.

Overall, that's a setup for pvp noobs, who make their own survival more important that what they bring to their gang...

Quote:

and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel.


Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?

And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship.


Heres a shot in the dark: because they are Minmatar? Because speed is thier racial ability and without they are pure ****e?

I'll avoid blabbering about drones or nuets (although they are valid counters.) I have a corp mate who killed 2 nanoships and a bb in cruise raven... On TQ... Solo.
Shut up.

http://viperlounge.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=606

Heres another... Battleships vs super-fast nano vindi... I'll admit his fit is a little fail, but he was doing way over 7k and he is still dead.

http://viperlounge.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=806

I'll admit a BS shouldn't be able to hit those speeds, but all the same, it died, just like all nanos do. They can be killed by non-nanos.

Vladameir Harkenin
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:25:00 - [4133]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword


Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?

And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship.


So they can take advantage of speedtanking. But seriously they don't have crap for tank slots, can't shield tank do to ewar and a 4 slot amour tank may work for amarr or gallente, but they have decent resist on armor, whereas minnie have lots of wholes in there armor, hence they speed tank. Still a 4 slot tank even for amarr or gallente is cutting it close, but doable do to decent base resist on t2 ships.

On another note they rolled back sisi and have applied a new mirror...just have to wait and see what happens now.

Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:40:00 - [4134]
 

Edited by: Lucai on 12/08/2008 20:52:55

Adding to Vladameir, the ladies and gents in here might be interested in the following:


Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer
The speed changes have been rolled back on Singularity. There will be a devblog with a more elaborate explanation.

You will be able to continue testing them on Multiplicity, once a new mirror is in place there.


Original post

Have a look Here for details.

Lets see if this thread manages to reach 200 pages YARRRR!!

Hab0k
Posted - 2008.08.12 21:02:00 - [4135]
 

CCP. Why not creat more counters toward speed, amp up missile spead amp up drone spead. this game needs to be fast. I have always preformed well as an interdictor pilot untill the nerf. because speed saved me. so my question is, Why make these ships (all ships that use speed) become useless? why not just create new counter nano mods? I Was thinking What should be done and what is being done are two different things. Here is my idea... All these people say OH my GOD NANO MOTHER ******* are destroying this game! But truely it is not hard to stop us. slap a web on us or if you are in a battle ship fit neuts. I like the idea of the scrams turning off the mwd but in a sence why have a mod do more that one thing? why not make a mod (like a neut small med and large with diff ranges) have the ability to turn off the mwd and keep it off as long as that module has its mwd disruptor on the target. The speed that is used by nano pilots is not different than a 1000dps resistant drake. (which is super easy to aquire) there are just different ways to take down these ships. Truely the only nanos with dps are nanos such as hacs. and a solo hac cant mwd forever unless you have a setup for that. and then your dps suffers. the way you take a drake out is with a slew of ships. Now some one said to me. "Hab0k, dont you understand? if i am being engaged by 10 nanos i am dead and i cant even take one with me... I know because it happend to me!" Then i asked this player, "well, tell me. If there were 4 battle ships attacking you while you where ratting do you think you could take one with you. because after you broke its tank im sure it would warp." The reply was that it probly would but atleast you can hit it. so i said "True true but why not fit a counter mesure, such as a neut." he said he did have one but that guy warped off after he used it on the hostile. so i asked "well how is that different from breaking another battleships tank and it warping off? because the capacitor is truely the ships tank. because once that runs out than the ship is dead. if you had a warp disruptor on yourtr ship than it would be dead just like any other ship. and you could probly repeate this process until they run."
Truely this is how the game is. there is no way that nanos can be invincible becauise they die all the time. when you see engagments in huge battles its not like there are really shyte tons of nanos. there bs's. so that aspect is still solid. truely when fleets engage a squad of nano pilots they are in the wrong to say OMFG they are too damn strong. because they are the ones bringing the wrong equipment. they need to be educated about the way to counter such threats instead of being so rediculous about it an saying that it is unfair.

I like eve to have boundaries but when boundaries begin to counter pilots that revolve around a style of playing so much that they become unplayable that is bogus.

Eve-online is a free thinking game. and the only issue is that you are only hearing the victems complaining. a good portion of this game is already conqured by large alliances so how are the small corps supposed to remain free to ccombat? join an alliance as there bit** i dont think that should have to be required for combat. Do factional warfare where there are already amped up numbers of hostiles to the point where you would just be fighting larger blobs? not worth it.

The interdictor nerf that occured a while back will be further burried under this nerf... they will move at maybe 2km/s. so tell me how do you use an interdictor? has it become as usless as an assault frig?

(here is a new idea! why not create 1 more assault frig per class and give them the abilitys to shut off MWD's from 50% further per level.

Instead of converting the scrams that will now point and web targets to become crazily over powered.

More thought needs to be put into this.

Sure speed is crazy but to nerf it entirely drops that out of the game is even crazier.

Zaranya Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.12 23:35:00 - [4136]
 

Nice! Make Specialized webbers that only affect MWDs that have extra range and can only be fit on Assault Frigates? That might actually make them useful.

Kareena Evol
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.13 04:32:00 - [4137]
 

Right lets discuss this in a bit more in depth you wanna reduce ridiculous speeds, heres a Crow fit with max skills going 50km/s with all the boosts possible ...

Domination Overdrive Injector
Domination Overdrive Injector
Domination Overdrive Injector

Gistii A-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive

Polycarbon Engine Housing II
Polycarbon Engine Housing II


Ok now you want to get this down to around 20km/s per se without messing up the game for everybody and nerfing everything people care about too hard.

First change x-boosters to only effect sig radius as suggested in blog seems like good tradeoff.

43.9km/s

Change Polycarbons Mass -10% for T2 & Mass -5% for T1.

36.6km/s

Skill: Skirmish Warfare - 10% velocityBonus split this to -5% velocity and -5% inertia bonus

34.9km/s

Module: Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment 28.81% (Nozh wrote 38.8%) speedFactor reduce this to 19%

31km/s

Pirate Implants - Snake - 53.63% velocityBonus change to circa 45%
Shaqil's speed enhancer - 8% speedFactor leave it
Zors custom navigation 5% speedFactor - change to effect some other attribute like inertia or sig radius

26.5km/s

Nanofiber Internal Structure - -12.5% massBonus
Overdrive Injector System - 22% velocityBonus change to 17.2%

23.9km/s

Overheating

Overheating MWD - speedFactor +50% change to 33%

Voila

21.3km/s

Well thats not too bad now a Ten billion setup with a buddy in a command ship and mindlinks on one of the fastest ships only doing 21.3km/s

A Vaga with similar setup is reduced to 18.5 km/s from 35. This does not effect how the game works for the average player but reduces potential ludicrous speeds more than 50%.

Zaethiel
Infinity Research
Posted - 2008.08.13 08:07:00 - [4138]
 

Originally by: XxAngelxX
Edited by: XxAngelxX on 25/07/2008 11:02:16
Thanks so much for this CCP!

I for one welcome our new 30man drake gang overlords.


I have to admit these changes do sound like CCP is ringing in the command ship age, which pretty much ended when nanos became popular.

Should i hold a funeral for my rapier? Poor thing won't be seeing much action anymore.

Long Live the DRAKE!

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2008.08.13 21:34:00 - [4139]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.


LOL at "Balance".

In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD

Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.

A politician diverting over 100 million gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.

Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.

Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.

So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.

And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent Laughing

Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.

Galvatr0n
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
Posted - 2008.08.13 22:17:00 - [4140]
 

Don't nerf the damn web and if you have to make something to shut down mwd's then make it a new damn item. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are really thinking about this stuff or if you just have a tub with manatees who take "idea balls" and give them to you for what to do next in EVE.

"Oh look at us, we like to change the entire game mechanics every six months which only ends up creating more problems to fix later!"

Item: MWD scram
Range: 7,500 meters
Effect: Shuts you down and makes you cry


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