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Elvor Dark
New Dawn Corporation
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:12:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Gruxella
If you can't kill a ship before it self destructs you need to change your fit or pick on something that you CAN kill in 2 minutes.

I've lost 3 or 4 carrier kill mails because they self destructed. I didn't come whining. It's a part of the game and I personally wont sit there hopelessly tanking a gang that is going to take 20 minutes to kill me when I can just self destruct and get out.

Drop some nanos and fit some damage mods.

Or just fly a megathron tbh.


Asking for insurance to be removed when you self destruct is ridiculous. Fit your ships better.



I do understand where you come from, but it's an easy move to do, far too easy and yes there is the consequence of losing your ship and it can be a harsh one. It is like I said though, if you were caught and you self destruct, the people that caught you don't get a thing. Only the ammo in your guns and drones in your bay. Which for a carrier could be quite nice, if they could pick some of the drones up that is.

For other ships though, fully fitted that may have even tried to fight back, if they can tank long enough to self destruct, then that's just sucks doesn't it. Anyone can tank for 2 minutes, so instead, I don't know, maybe we should change the rules completely.

They shouldn't get insurance was what I have said recently, but now I am going to default.

How about if you fight back, you have to wait so long before you can self destruct. So if you were in a carrier and you tried to fight back, that's 15 minutes you have to wait before you can start the self destruct sequence, but it starts from the moment you stop fighting. Maybe less, there would have to be balancing on this because each ship is different. So a frigate could have to option to self destruct in just 30 seconds.

In fact no, this is ridiculous, you are seeing my plan evolve here...

Each ship, depending on it's size should have a certain amount of time set on it for self destructing.

So a carrier, 15 minutes.
The frigate, 30 seconds.
A battleship, 6 minutes.

You get the idea. I am saying it should be made harder for them to choose whether they want to self destruct or not. Too much is denied to the hunter and they hunted you down fair and square is my point. They wasted their time trying to kill you because your tank could easily outlast the unrealistic 2 minute timer.


It does seem that DPS is the issue that everyone is bringing up, so as we all are admitting that DPS is the problem, this is a way we could solve it. So maybe the ships should have different timers that would compare with what each ship might be able to tank.

Elvor Dark
New Dawn Corporation
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:14:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: ManofFace
Edited by: ManofFace on 23/07/2008 21:53:25
Originally by: Elvor Dark


I already stated that I thought it all over and I said the insurance should just be void and that both parties should lose out, it does seem a little messed up when someone can just self destruct and lose only his ship after being caught and trying to fight back also. So I suggested them not getting insurance, although somewhere deepdown, I would like to see something else done with the self destruct.

They try to fight back and when they can't win, they self destruct. That is in my opinion, if they fight back, a desperate move, they tried to win but couldn't and so they had a little whine to themselves and self destructed.

This is apparently a tactical move, funny how it works like that isn't it. He was in a mood and whining all to himself, he just didn't say it out aloud is all. Self destructing is a whiners move FULL STOP


I disagree actually. As may have been mentioned before it can be a useful tool for making sure your setups are right for people who are actually fighting. if you can't kill your target in 2 minutes then you most likely don't deserve the ship your in.

Scenario:

You go out and are about to grab a <insert random ship here> the moment you activate you modules you activate self-destruct, if you cannot kill your target in 2 minutes the ship goes. Yes insurance is returned if you did so and you make a bit of your money back but the money you do lose helps learn 2 lessons.

1. Check your fit make sure you got it right, check again a second time to make sure.
2. Make sure the target you did choose you actually can take out. If ya know you can't take em bring friends or you can just plainly **** em off for a while by ecm/web/scram. Your sure to get quite the interesting conversation out of them then. (and a few iskies to boot if ya do it right, and at this point you would want to turn off the self-destruct, but hey some people are crazy :) ).

Idealistic yes but might be a good idea for hardcore players or corporations that want to teach their members pvp the hard way with consequences.


What, where are you living, targets just hang around in the same spot for 10 minutes do they? Whilst you fit out a ship perfectly set for killing them, shut up man, get real for **** sake.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:16:00 - [63]
 

If you're having trouble killing a Myrmidon with two of your [nano] ships in under two minutes perhaps you should consider replacing some of your speed mods for damage mods. Otherwise tt's the price you pay for flying nanos. You sacrifice damage for speed.



Endless Subversion
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:19:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: ManofFace
I disagree actually. As may have been mentioned before it can be a useful tool for making sure your setups are right for people who are actually fighting. if you can't kill your target in 2 minutes then you most likely don't deserve the ship your in.


Bull****. Absolute and total crap. Loads of ships take more than 2 minutes to kill even if you're setup in ships designed to kill them.


Endless Subversion
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:23:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
If you're having trouble killing a Myrmidon with two of your [nano] ships in under two minutes perhaps you should consider replacing some of your speed mods for damage mods. Otherwise tt's the price you pay for flying nanos. You sacrifice damage for speed.



Why? Grinding through someone's cap and tank is valid tactic. There's a whole line of ships with bonuses designed to do this. You're defending a broken game mechanic because you don't like the fact the OP flys a rapier/vaga combo.

Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:26:00 - [66]
 

tl;dr it's the same crap as has already been overhashed in many other threads.

Matrix Skye
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:28:00 - [67]
 

this thread is teh funneh Laughing

the OP is whining on how easy it is to avoid be killed, all this while flying from the comfort of his nano Laughing

OP,

atleast with self-destruct the aggressor still gets to depart the victim from his ship. what about your consequences when flying your nano? Rolling Eyes you zoom away scott free when the fight doesn't go your way. want more dps? then stop nano-hugging. Rolling Eyes

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:38:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Endless Subversion
Originally by: Exlegion
If you're having trouble killing a Myrmidon with two of your [nano] ships in under two minutes perhaps you should consider replacing some of your speed mods for damage mods. Otherwise tt's the price you pay for flying nanos. You sacrifice damage for speed.



Why? Grinding through someone's cap and tank is valid tactic. There's a whole line of ships with bonuses designed to do this. You're defending a broken game mechanic because you don't like the fact the OP flys a rapier/vaga combo.


Excuse me, but if you want DPS then bring a ship capable of dealing DPS efficiently. I don't bring my Scorpion or Rook to a fight and then complain I can't deal enough DPS. If you're fitting specifically for flight and a quick getaway then that is what you have decided your ship will specialize in. Accept the consequences of your decisions. Otherwise I'd like to officially request from CCP to allow my Rook to ECM and deal enough DPS to kill most ships in 2 minutes or less.



Endless Subversion
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.07.23 22:57:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Exlegion

Excuse me, but if you want DPS then bring a ship capable of dealing DPS efficiently. I don't bring my Scorpion or Rook to a fight and then complain I can't deal enough DPS. If you're fitting specifically for flight and a quick getaway then that is what you have decided your ship will specialize in. Accept the consequences of your decisions. Otherwise I'd like to officially request from CCP to allow my Rook to ECM and deal enough DPS to kill most ships in 2 minutes or less.


Look you're on about nanos again. Tard rage at the nanos somewhere else.

MOAR DPS isn't the only valid combat choice. Not to mention that it's hardly viable when flying in very small gangs, solo or using a number of ships not designed for straight gank.

Think about these:

1) Nos/Neut boats. Espeically the curse, pilgrim and sentinel, but also anything setup this way. They don't get quick kills, they have to wear the enemy down.

2) Smaller ships attacking bigger ships. Why should a cruiser or a frig be denied the rewards on something bigger just because it takes them awhile to get through their defenses?

3) Small gangs+ Solo: Why should a small gang be denied the rewards of killing a carrier just because it has a ton of total HP?

As to your absurd post about 'using the right ship' to kill anything in two minutes...

Pvp doesn't work this way. Some fights are just going to take longer. There's already extra risk for a longer fight, it hardly seems necessary to penalize players even more by denying them loot just because the fight took longer than 2 minutes.

Players shouldn't have to gankblob to have any chance of prying loot of something.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.07.23 23:52:00 - [70]
 

I'll ignore your ad hominems for obvious reasons.

Originally by: Endless Subversion
MOAR DPS isn't the only valid combat choice. Not to mention that it's hardly viable when flying in very small gangs, solo or using a number of ships not designed for straight gank.


There is variety in this game. Ships are meant to take advantage of their individual strenghts to compliment each other. Neither of the attackers' ships are designed for efficient damage-dealing. So in this case where it's just a fit for flight, then yes, you would need a blob of nanos to accomplish the desired DPS.

Originally by: Endless Subversion
1) Nos/Neut boats. Espeically the curse, pilgrim and sentinel, but also anything setup this way. They don't get quick kills, they have to wear the enemy down.


Again, they are not meant to get kills quickly. These ships are designed to attack specific systems within the ship. They're electronic warfare ships, not heavy damage dealers.

Originally by: Endless Subversion
2) Smaller ships attacking bigger ships. Why should a cruiser or a frig be denied the rewards on something bigger just because it takes them awhile to get through their defenses?


Think about this for a moment. Are you suggesting a frig should be able to take on a battleship easily? I'm not sure what to tell you here. I don't think I understand what you're trying to say.

Originally by: Endless Subversion
3) Small gangs+ Solo: Why should a small gang be denied the rewards of killing a carrier just because it has a ton of total HP?


In your opinion, what size small gang should be able to take on a carrier? I suspect our opinions on the matter will differ.

Originally by: Endless Subversion
Pvp doesn't work this way. Some fights are just going to take longer. There's already extra risk for a longer fight, it hardly seems necessary to penalize players even more by denying them loot just because the fight took longer than 2 minutes.

Players shouldn't have to gankblob to have any chance of prying loot of something.


If all ships are fit for flight (as in a gang of nanos) then unfortunately yes, you will need to blob. Add variety to your fleet (such as efficient DPS dealers, EW, flight, etc) and you will improve your game, I assure you.



SirMoric
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.07.23 23:54:00 - [71]
 

If the killmail matter that much, then start dispatching killmails when a ship selfdestruct.

So the those who fired on a vessel when the selfdestruct was activated get a killmail.
In the end they caused the enemy to scuttle a ship.

But honestly, why do people not step forward and admit they want the killmails and not try to hide it behind other more or less stupid arguments.

If you scuttle your ship, you do it to deny people the loot.... That's it! I don't give a d... about the killmails, they're just a way to show people was part of the biggest blob.

rgds

Krasnij Okjabre
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.07.24 00:09:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Endless Subversion
Originally by: Exlegion

Excuse me, but if you want DPS then bring a ship capable of dealing DPS efficiently. I don't bring my Scorpion or Rook to a fight and then complain I can't deal enough DPS. If you're fitting specifically for flight and a quick getaway then that is what you have decided your ship will specialize in. Accept the consequences of your decisions. Otherwise I'd like to officially request from CCP to allow my Rook to ECM and deal enough DPS to kill most ships in 2 minutes or less.


Look you're on about nanos again. Tard rage at the nanos somewhere else.

MOAR DPS isn't the only valid combat choice. Not to mention that it's hardly viable when flying in very small gangs, solo or using a number of ships not designed for straight gank.

Think about these:

1) Nos/Neut boats. Espeically the curse, pilgrim and sentinel, but also anything setup this way. They don't get quick kills, they have to wear the enemy down.

2) Smaller ships attacking bigger ships. Why should a cruiser or a frig be denied the rewards on something bigger just because it takes them awhile to get through their defenses?

3) Small gangs+ Solo: Why should a small gang be denied the rewards of killing a carrier just because it has a ton of total HP?

As to your absurd post about 'using the right ship' to kill anything in two minutes...

Pvp doesn't work this way. Some fights are just going to take longer. There's already extra risk for a longer fight, it hardly seems necessary to penalize players even more by denying them loot just because the fight took longer than 2 minutes.

Players shouldn't have to gankblob to have any chance of prying loot of something.


This.

Long time, no see Endless! Razz

I think a good dose of Cowbell would help also.

Kras.

Mankirks Wife
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.24 01:35:00 - [73]
 

I agree that if mechanics were changed so anyone engaged on the self-destructing target gets a killmail the whole issue would go away. Everything else here is just bull**** because people won't own up to being motivated by KB stats.

Gruxella
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.24 02:46:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Gruxella on 24/07/2008 02:46:34
Originally by: Mankirks Wife
I agree that if mechanics were changed so anyone engaged on the self-destructing target gets a killmail the whole issue would go away. Everything else here is just bull**** because people won't own up to being motivated by KB stats.


I can go both ways on that one :P

As the killer it can be irritating to lose the mails. (Most of my self destructs as I mentioned earlier were when we killed cap ships)

However, I think I prefer the system as is. It sucks to lose the mail but when you're the one denying a mail it's threads like these make you do it. Evil or Very Mad

Keep in mind that... I dont see people self destructing every day. I can't imagine people hitting self destruct "in case they might lose" as has been described here. I've seen it. I've done it. The only situations where anyone uses it are when they know for a fact that they can't win or get away.

Leave it be! Besides, it's fun to beat the self destruct :)

dust queen
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.07.24 02:55:00 - [75]
 

it's how a tanked ship counters a nano. pretty good balancer, i might add

just goes to show that in eve, no one can have their cake and eat it too. not as long as the devs wield the nerf-bat

Jones Bones
Burning Napalm
Posted - 2008.07.24 03:28:00 - [76]
 

Nano ships whining about not getting a kill because their zoom zooms don't put out enough DPS. Rolling Eyes

You whining for self destruct nerf is no different than a nano whine. It's a game mechanic, get over it. Or stop using nanos and bring DPS ships.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2008.07.24 04:15:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Mankirks Wife
I agree that if mechanics were changed so anyone engaged on the self-destructing target gets a killmail the whole issue would go away. Everything else here is just bull**** because people won't own up to being motivated by KB stats.


This. It sucks you lost loot, but I (and many others) will shoot absolutely anything not blue for the hell of it. You know that 3 day old kestrel won't drop anything, or the NPC corp rookie ship scout, but its still pew-pew.

If it self destructed because of you, its dead and gone.

I would take either a) removal of killmails (who cares?) b) Loot drops just like normal wrecks, no killmail.

Novemb3r
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.24 04:51:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Endless Subversion
Originally by: Exlegion
If you're having trouble killing a Myrmidon with two of your [nano] ships in under two minutes perhaps you should consider replacing some of your speed mods for damage mods. Otherwise tt's the price you pay for flying nanos. You sacrifice damage for speed.



Why? Grinding through someone's cap and tank is valid tactic. There's a whole line of ships with bonuses designed to do this. You're defending a broken game mechanic because you don't like the fact the OP flys a rapier/vaga combo.


How is it a broken mechanic? If his ship blows from self destruct you achieve what you set out to do. If your problem is that you don't get a killmail or loot from it when he self destructs that's not a bad mechanic, that's you being upset with him using an equally valid strategy to deny you those things. It's got nothing to do with the fact that people fly nanos. Way to jump to a massive conclusion there.

Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
Posted - 2008.07.24 06:35:00 - [79]
 

careful about the insurance bit...

cause if they change it, they might nerf sucide ganking along with it.....

so yeah, be careful what you wish for =P ...

tbh... printscreen is a good killmail substitute by itself =P

Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.07.24 07:42:00 - [80]
 

I personally don't think self destruction is good enough, not only should it cause a powerful smartbomb like effect when initiated i think you should also have an option of destroying your drones in space as well.

I do however think that a self destructing ship should produce a killmail.

Mr fRostiE
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2008.07.24 07:44:00 - [81]
 

had a stabber try and self destruct on me the other day, first time its ever happened... he didnt bother firing back.

though once i did pop him, i found out he had plenty of guns which i was well in range of, he just didnt bother...

needless to say he didnt get the pleasure of popping his own ship :D

AntonioBanderas
Empirius Enigmus Navy
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2008.07.24 08:26:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Evangeline Vhersoul

Come to think of it, my friends Vagabond had no Gyrostabilizers fitted and his weapons and ammo was fail, not even tech 2. .

tl;dr
Your friend fails and should buy himself a stabber. Or something. T1 vaga? jeez...

Lily Cole
Posted - 2008.07.24 08:52:00 - [83]
 

PvP isn't new.

Back when games programmers knew how to make it good, we had things like the Shofixti Scout.

Quote:
The glory device is activated by three switches which must be flipped in sequence to detonate the bomb. Shofixti pilots almost invariably hit the first two the moment they enter the same solar system as the enemy, and spend the rest of the battle with one paw suspended over the third. Nobody ever said Shofixti pilots were quite sane, but their methods are undeniably effective.


Now you tell me... would you give up your insurance to go out with a bang that bites back?

But let's not derail this classic gold nano whine... choosing low DPS and whining that whiners are adapting... awww this is just too sweet. It makes me want to return the polycarbs to where the sun doesn't shine.

Elvor Dark
New Dawn Corporation
Posted - 2008.07.24 09:17:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Elvor Dark on 24/07/2008 09:18:23
"Think about this for a moment. Are you suggesting a frig should be able to take on a battleship easily? I'm not sure what to tell you here. I don't think I understand what you're trying to say."

Exlegion, I agree 100 million percent with this comment.

It would be ridiculous if a frigate caught you and couldn't break your tank, ever. That's you caught and you have no way out, self destruct is a viable option here, but there are many different circumstances that could be used as a reason for self destruction. You and most other people are not even giving these other circumstances a chance, instead you whine about tha fact that you don't have a Huginn or Rapier to help you out. You hardcore blame the nano ships, probably because you've never caught one, I felt the same in the beginning and you know what? I did something about it.

To all those suggesting we want a killmail for this, yes of course in a way we do, yes it does suck, but your attention would have been too focused on this matter to promote any real debate. However, it looks like nano ships got the beasting anyway, which suggests that there are a lot of whiners here who can't catch them. I come up against nano ships all the time, it's what my area is like, so flying a nano ship is really the best way to go. It's not often we run into something not nano related. It's the safest way to fly for us, we are always witness to local spike and nano gangs ourselves, the only difference is that we are just a smaller group.

In the end though, I am just saying that self destruction should become more of a difficult choice to make. There isn't enough of a deterrent for using it.

LET THERE BE!

Longer and shorter timers for each different ship type when it comes to self destruction.

and/or

Killmails added, few people agree, but screw it. These mails should show the damage we did and then the self destruct shows the remaining damage it did to the ship. The killmail could be titled; self destructed and maybe even have an icon that shows it was self destructed. It would show up in the stats, but you'll only get half the points you normally would.

and/or

Loot drops instead of a killmail, or maybe as well as. Leave a wreck there and it can be looted like a normal wreck.

and/or

No insurance, it was self destructed and therefore void. Insurance companies hate pirates yes, but this shows you didn't even put up a fight and even if you did, can you prove it?


Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.07.24 09:44:00 - [85]
 

Screw the killmail. I want the loot.

Oh, and to whomever threatened with the removal of insurance for suicide ganks: CCP has already caved in to the bears on that one. We might as well lobby for the removal of insurance for self destructs too. It's not like they have any argument against it now.

SirMoric
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.07.24 10:54:00 - [86]
 

You won't get the loot... That's the hole point of selfdestruction.

I don't care if you get a killmail or not, but that button is a way of denying you the ship and it's parts.

rgds

Blazing Fire
Interstellar Operations Incorporated
Posted - 2008.07.24 11:05:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Screw the killmail. I want the loot.

Oh, and to whomever threatened with the removal of insurance for suicide ganks: CCP has already caved in to the bears on that one. We might as well lobby for the removal of insurance for self destructs too. It's not like they have any argument against it now.



Thumbs up for removal of the insurance on self destruct!

Blazing Fire
CEO
Interstellar Operations Incorporated
Corp web site

Services
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Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.07.24 11:46:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: SirMoric
You won't get the loot... That's the hole point of selfdestruction.

I don't care if you get a killmail or not, but that button is a way of denying you the ship and it's parts.

rgds


BUT I WANT IT!!! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


cytomatrix
Caldari
Brutal Deliverance
Extreme Prejudice.
Posted - 2008.07.24 12:33:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Elvor Dark
Ok, so last night me and a mate got a Myrmidon and tackled it at a gate in 0.0, he put up a fight and when he knew he couldn't win, he tried to get back to the gate, my mate bumped him off though with his Vagabond and I just kept him webbed down with my Huginn. There was no escape for this guy and he knew it, his tank was too good though, but he must have been running out of Cap Booster Charges by now. Then all of a sudden, he exploded. The ******* had only gone and self destructed. Not only didn't we get the kill, but there was no loot drop neither.

I didn't know that this was the case.

Anyway, me and mate were ******, but I ask you all, what the hell? If you destroy his ship and it explodes, you get a loot drop, so why when he explodes it himself, don't we get any loot?

This totally defeats the object of the tackle and it's way too easy for an ISK farmer to deny us the kill and his loot. Yeah they lose out, but with no loot drop as well, so do we. We got nothing for our trouble and this just sucks. While they swan away laughing at us because they denied us the kill and their loot.

What if he was faction fitted? It would have been a great kill, or attempt at least, but because there was no loot drop, it wouldn't matter so much if he self destructed and so he would.

I think that there should at least be loot drops on self destructed ships, it makes more sense than having no loot drop. What do you think?


Excellant disguise Endless Subversion. New alt?

Selfdestruction is fine.

AltBier
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.07.24 14:30:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Tenacha Khan
Originally by: AltBier
Removing insurance for self-destruct seems fair.


How so? If you look at it in character. Insurance companys would ...

... not pay if I deliberately destroyed my own ship.


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