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Straight Chillen
Solar Wind
Posted - 2008.07.21 20:54:00 - [61]

Originally by: Hesh Ballantine Not two little rag tag bands of 10 or 15 guys having a slap fight and then leaving with their e-honor intact.[/quote

i dont think anyone wants to cut down the numbers to something that small, but i think a few 75-100vs75-100 battles spread across a few systems would be a lot less laggy and much more fun then trying to cram 600+ people into a system till the node pops, Or were u not there for the delve campaign?

Hesh Ballantine
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.07.21 21:10:00 - [62]

Edited by: Hesh Ballantine on 21/07/2008 21:11:57
Originally by: Straight Chillen
Originally by: Hesh Ballantine Not two little rag tag bands of 10 or 15 guys having a slap fight and then leaving with their e-honor intact.[/quote

i dont think anyone wants to cut down the numbers to something that small, but i think a few 75-100vs75-100 battles spread across a few systems would be a lot less laggy and much more fun then trying to cram 600+ people into a system till the node pops, Or were u not there for the delve campaign?

Oh sure, but why compromise the vision of the game to accommodate physical/technical limitations? All things being equal I think we all want to see massive armadas duke it out. Hell, look at the promo banner for Empyrean Age. Tell me that fight wouldn't slow the game to a crawl. As for Delve, lag was only part of it. The real reason Delve sucked is because both sides were trying to make the game as un-fun as possible for their opponent and both sides are VERY good at that type of warfare.

edit: is it just me or did we break font size on this page?

Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.07.21 21:16:00 - [63]

Edited by: Batolemaeus on 21/07/2008 21:16:59
I think most will agree that the goal of "fixing lag" can not be achieved by just throwing hardware or spiffy software solutions at it.

What we need, and what 0.0 warfare needs, is a mechanic to actually make smaller fleets worthwhile. The current system promotes large fleets, larger than the server can handle. We need a radically new one, or people will just quit.

Every alliance experiences old players, often fcs leaving due to that. When you move a fleet of 100 and it takes you 10 minutes to pass just one system, then that's some strange anomaly. But it hurts, and it hurts badly. We need changes, we need radical changes..but if you'd ask me, i wouldn't know a good answer how it could be done. Splitting fleets is also a logistical problem, it is a whole can of worms for all alliances. But we need something that smaller fleets can do, and we also need mechanics that force large alliances to split, and not send a large fleet nuking every resistance.

We need a change in game mechanics, because no amount of hardware will solve the problem.
But, honestly, as i said, i have no idea how that could look like. Absolutely no friggin clue. Maybe we really need something that makes holding space exceptionally hard. Where you can't realistically hold more than a few constellations, a region at max, without being terribly vulnerable to guerilla tactics destroying your stuff. Maybe that would be the way to change our problems, but you can tell it would result in a massive whining from all major alliances in the game, and a massive crash of the larger ones. Maybe this is what eve needs, the good ol' days back. I'm "only" a '06 player, but even i have nostalgic memories of "the old days".

We need a radical change, we are not going anywhere in 0.0 with todays sov mechanics. Space has become smaller with jumpbridges, and while nifty, it allows to defend extreme amounts of space even easier.

We need change. And we need it fast, before only the most hardcore players spend weekends on gridloads..or go somewhere else.

(why is this in caod by the way? we have better forums for that..)

Gumpy Nighthawk
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.21 21:19:00 - [64]

Edited by: Gumpy Nighthawk on 21/07/2008 21:21:47
The current state of both of these initiatives is unknown. CCP has asked for proposals to go through the CSM to address the gameplay aspect, and there is little indication on how advanced the Infiniband project is. I think it can safely be assumed that the current status quo will be in place for the next year, however.

Seriously i think this whole CSM is a big fluke, it's nice that a couple of people think they have the power to actually change things ingame, but the fact that they have meetings that almost take as long as a regular working day i really doubt these guys will ever achieve something.

Just think of this, since CCP isn't known for it's fast changes in game, it usually takes half a year if not longer for a decent content update to happen, then by the time 0.0 warfare has changed, another game will probably have risen on the horizon. Actually i do believe ambulation will hit the servers before we will see changes to our type of warfare.

On a side note i don't even understand why i'm somehow unable to cancel my subscriptions, it's not like i have any fun waiting for 15 mins for modules to be turned on, i guess i'm just enjoying the sweet graphics of the chat client called eve.

PinK Tac0 ReasearcH
Posted - 2008.07.21 21:50:00 - [65]

Perhaps the problem is for some its more fun winning than having fun while playing the game.

Selk Cantor
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.07.21 22:01:00 - [66]

Lag certainly is the biggest reason you don't have fun pvping in Eve. I don't blame CCP most of the time, because I have yet to play a game that doesn't lag with alot of people in the same zone. Look at how bad WoW used to lag before battlegrounds, when people world pvped. CCP certainly doesn't have the hundreds of millions in cash to blow on hardware Blizzard does, yet they manage almost as well. Sometimes I have to scratch my head though, like emergency warping a few times in Aridia yesterday when I was the only person in the system or there were two others.

It seems mostly just a limit in our current technology. I'm glad they at least kept the DirectX10 graphics optional. Great graphics are cool for a few days, but then you get tired of the load and don't really care if you're character is a cartoon orc. Its especially hard on the smaller corps and players in corps who don't sell them cheap gear, to motivate themselves to go out into a laggy environment and lose a bs they just spent 8 hours ratting to buy. The loss penalty in Eve is harsh and lag makes it even less appealing when you can't even control your ship enough to have a fighting chance.

Alpha Prime
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.07.21 22:25:00 - [67]

Hilmar & Oveur got some explaining to do on fanfest 08.

Junkie Beverage
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.07.21 22:28:00 - [68]

lag is my favorite tackler

King Balthazar
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2008.07.21 22:32:00 - [69]

well i enjoy wachting those eve trailers and tbh i wish fleets battles could be like that in other words i would love to be involve in a 100 vs 100 fleet fight lag free, where the winner is the best group and not the one that knows how to handle lag better.

Mei Han
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.22 06:33:00 - [70]

I tend to belive that CCP's marketing dep has a lot more funding than the development one.Very HappyVery Happy I would like to see new servers after 2 years AND a rewriten game code from scratch. Because the client is responsible for quite a few of the problems that make eve "not as epic as it could be".

But I guess the $5,25M/month (calculated as worse case scenario - that everyone pays with dollar currency) are better spended in fancy patches and adds all over the net.

Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2008.07.23 10:36:00 - [71]

What is all that fuzz about?

I am the real Victor.

The thread may now be closed.

Hard Knocks Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.23 10:37:00 - [72]

Originally by: Victor Vision


Posted - 2008.07.23 10:40:00 - [73]

haven't they been working on a supercomputer or something of the sorts for a bit of time now?

128th ABC123
Lucky Clover Investments
Posted - 2008.07.23 10:50:00 - [74]

Originally by: MirrorGod
Whatever you do, keep your pilots in 0.0 and the lagmunster with them. Don't join Factional Warfare, it sucks. The POS's and Carrier jumps and DDD's are much more fun.

If you stay in C&P...

New ones
Posted - 2008.07.23 11:06:00 - [75]

Originally by: Junkie Beverage
lag is my favorite tackler

quoting for the truth!Cool

Prof Patpending
Bodgit and Scarper Industrial
Posted - 2008.07.23 11:38:00 - [76]

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 21/07/2008 21:16:59
I think most will agree that the goal of "fixing lag" can not be achieved by just throwing hardware or spiffy software solutions at it.

Here come the words people.

OK so lets say a large fleet battle is 250 a side. This would cause the system to lag out horrifically.

Now lets abstract this situation out.

You have 500 Player entities in the system. Also you need to keep states on all towers and tower mods, asteroids, any plexs waiting to be discovered, outposts, rats, Moons, Planets etc...

So just for arguments sake we say there are 5000 objects in one system and each of these objects needs a session to keep track of its status. Thats alot of nuts.

There are current mechanics in game to try and help lag. These being grids and what is know as 'reinforcing' the node. Grid is rather self explanatory as it means the current area of a system where players currently are. 'Reinforcing' is a bit more of a black art. I would expect this means moving a system onto its own physical server to try and give it more resources to run the system and reduce the lag. This helps but is not perfect.

If even on its own hardware a system is lagging due to all the players and asteroids and rats etc... etc... then this leaves three routes.

1. Reduce the size of fleets. Surely this is a no go as it is the huge scale pvp that people look for. There is only so much fun that can be had in a roaming gang compared to a massive battle.

What you could do is rather than reduce the size of the fleets involved is try and spread them about in a system. Example:- Have all active towers in a system require all other active towers to enter reinforced mode within day an hour of each other. A shot tower will regen shields and be immune from hostile or friendly action until it hits 50% shields. This takes 60 minutes. If all active towers in a system are in this regen state at the same time then it goes into old fashioned reinforced. This does have a problem in that systems with lots of moons will be impossible to take. So lets say rather than all towers the minimum in an hour is 4 and any others after the initial 4 where the total number of towers in a system is greater than 4. If it is 4 or less then you need to hit them all.

What does this mean? Well it means that fleets need to be split up to hit multiple targets and defences can concentrate on one to keep the enemy out. This has the side effect of allowing alliances that are under attack by an alliance that is on the otherside of the world a chance to defend their space and not be subject to timezone ping pong.

2. Upgrade the hardware. Yeah that would work until you get more subscribers or the fleets again reach a point where the servers struggle again.

3. Software trickery. As discussed above about how I would see the objects in a system being abstracted you could add if it does not already exist an extension to how the grid system works. Anything not on a player grid that doesn't move? Stick it into the swap/page and leave the RAM free for dynamic elements. System that currently is being contested? No rat spawns. Are you going to stick about and get involved in a fight thats not yours?

In the end the Devs are not gods and I am sure the community when and I include myself in this pull their heads out of their arses and work together to help solve the issues in the game. Either through mechanics changes, code changes or hardware changes and more likely a mixture of all three will the demon of lag be slain. Until then stop whining about it, the players know there is a problem, CCP would be blind to not know there is a problem if you have an idea then give some details on it, how would it work, how would it effect other elements of game play? Hell one of these ideas might get read!

The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.07.23 15:23:00 - [77]

How about looking at a Fleet as akin to a drone bay. In short a Fleet could be set up where it can only accept a certain "bandwidth" of players, ships and loadouts. So a BS with 8 turrets would obviously need more bandwidth than a frig with 2 turrets. A carrier capable of assigning X number of fighters would have more bandwidth than a cruiser that can have only 1 drone. I think you get my drift.

So now the FC has to decide how to tailor his fleet for a up coming engagement. Fleets would have enough bandwidth that a ad hoc pickup gang of 15-20 ships would have no problem but a planned fleet of a 100 ships would take some thought.

While I understand multiple fleets would then be formed to increase numbers, still it would force FC's to look at different management schemes to deploy against a target instead of blobbing up a 300 ship fleet and yelling charge. Just some food for thought.

Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.07.23 15:37:00 - [78]

500 man fleet fights would be epic with low lag...

...but I think I'll be sticking to small engagements until CCP comes out with that supercomputer they've been looking into.

Darc Kaahar
Cruoris Seraphim
Posted - 2008.07.23 15:43:00 - [79]

I did not read this thread. I am just here to say hello.

In Siders
Posted - 2008.07.23 16:02:00 - [80]

Edited by: bloomich on 23/07/2008 16:03:36
Its getting pretty daft all these people arguing the difficulties. Dont argue the difficulties, as the difficulties will argue themselves.

Nobody is intrested in hearing about how "product x" will make your lag whites even whiter. The issue might be the technological one, but the question we need to ask is a management one, which could be something like......

1. How far are we though to implementing something that might be a solution to reducing or eliminating lag?

If the answer is that we are still at the brainstorming stage and that its probebly a couple of years away as a estimated timetable, then thats all we need to know. Because thats what I can gather we really are at currently. Nobody expects a 100% perfect answer to the question, just a guideline.

Kaaii-Net Research Labs
Posted - 2008.07.23 16:44:00 - [81]

Maybe CCP just wants us to, say, roll a hundred sided die, for every 100 ships. What you roll is what you kill. Server automatically kills off that many ships of the opposing side. They could do it on point system, 1 pt for frigs, 2 for cruiser etc. Modify that with T1/T2faction/officer mods to the die roll, to mitigate or enhance losses or damages..

Then the fcs just dock up in station, roll the results and the battle is decided.

Wouldn't that be more fun...........

Rolling Eyes

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