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blankseplocked Factional Warfare - the NPC navies are a joke, why not just scrap them
 
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2008.07.15 17:02:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Lieutenant Isis
It's actually more like if POS guns could be tanked by one guy who if attacked, would provoke CONCORD.

Mmmm, so how are you gonna help the POS gun pop this guy without provoking the anger of CONCORD?

Asking for ideas on the forum might help you work out a solution. Posting lots of whiney, whiney threads demanding that CCP takes action is not.

oilio
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.07.15 17:51:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Akita T
you just need one to get aggro and tank it all whichever way he sees most fit.

I never realised that the Caldary militia was so **** poor that it cannot kill a ship even when it has the aggro from 10 NPC spawns.

I am willing to accept your surrender on behalf on the Gallente Federation now.



The Militia can't shoot the ship with aggro. It isn't a war target, and any ship that fired on it would be CONCORDed immediately. That's the whole point about this exploit - a non-militia ship takes all the aggro, and can't be fired upon by the opposing militia. It is protected by CONCORD.

I am willing to accept your admission of a very poor attempt at trolling, as long as you die in a fire.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.15 18:13:00 - [33]
 

Captain, Torres has gone bananas Wink

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.07.15 18:18:00 - [34]
 

Id certainly support removing the faction navies - but not for the reasons Akita T suggests. In my view the faction navies make FW too restrictive and encourage not smaller gangs - but larger ones (formed in order to circumvent the faction navies).

In addition they tend to focus a large numbers of players (the FW corps) into a comparitively small area of space (the contested regions) rather than allow the war to 'globalise'.

Removing FW navies would enable far more missions to be put in place -Empire objectives, long range infiltration missions, resupply missions and the like.

C.


Morcam
Posted - 2008.07.15 18:34:00 - [35]
 

Even if it were good for the game, CCP would not do this. Devs rarely remove content.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.15 18:50:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Id certainly support removing the faction navies - but not for the reasons Akita T suggests. In my view the faction navies make FW too restrictive and encourage not smaller gangs - but larger ones (formed in order to circumvent the faction navies).

Actually, that's one of the reasons I mentioned it as "damaging" some place else, I just didn't feel like mentioning it again.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.07.15 18:56:00 - [37]
 

So everyone in the game is in a fleet larger than 10 people or have NPC alts that have commandship level tanks and logsitic alts? Because somehow I am playing EVE and I didn't receive said super tank and super logsitic alt as well as 10 friends to do my bidding. Is there some line I should be getting in?

No ****, Faction War is going to be buggy and there will be holes for players to edploit. Calm down and let CCP patch the holes up and it will be fine.

It has been clearly stated by CCP many times that FW is supposed to be centered around low sec so Navys will stay in and probably get tweaked in a later patch.

Oftherocks
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
Posted - 2008.07.15 20:30:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
So everyone in the game is in a fleet larger than 10 people or have NPC alts that have commandship level tanks and logsitic alts? Because somehow I am playing EVE and I didn't receive said super tank and super logsitic alt as well as 10 friends to do my bidding. Is there some line I should be getting in?


Maybe you should try joining a corp, might help with finding the 10 friends you seem to needSmile

As for the super tank and logistic alt, you really don't need a vulture and a basilisk most of the time. A passive drake and 1 or 2 osprey will work just as well most of the time.

But I do agree with you, CCP will eventually fix the majority of bugs related with FW. These threads hopefully just draw a little more dev interest, after all the squeaky wheel get oiledVery Happy

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.16 03:41:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
No ****, Faction War is going to be buggy and there will be holes for players to edploit.
Calm down and let CCP patch the holes up and it will be fine.

Except that, you know, CCP have a really, really long turn-around time on fixing... well, anything that's not completely and utterly broken to begin with.
The fact that they "sort of" work makes them low enough on the priority list so that they won't get fixed any time soon.
I am quite convinced that one year from now, they STILL won't be "quite fixed" yet either, and by then everybody will just go "well, that's how they always usd to work, so it's fine".

Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2008.07.16 03:52:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: oilio
The Militia can't shoot the ship with aggro. It isn't a war target, and any ship that fired on it would be CONCORDed immediately.

However the Faction Navy is shooting at it. And boy do those guys hurt. If only there was a way of breaking the spider tank without annoying CONCORD.

Any ideas?

Napro
Caldari
Simplistic Syndicate
Cha0s Theory
Posted - 2008.07.16 06:03:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit

No ****, Faction War is going to be buggy and there will be holes for players to edploit. Calm down and let CCP patch the holes up and it will be fine.

It has been clearly stated by CCP many times that FW is supposed to be centered around low sec so Navys will stay in and probably get tweaked in a later patch.


Can someone remind CCP why they have Singularity? Thx

Zalos Avra
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2008.07.16 06:32:00 - [42]
 

Obvious change to the spawn limit:

When you reach the max # of spawns, first spawn despawns, new spawn comes into play and acquires the person that triggered the spawn. If that person leaves system, spawn finds and acquires valid targets inside system (as I believe it already does). Station undock also triggers respawn.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.16 09:01:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Napro
Can someone remind CCP why they have Singularity? Thx

I have no idea how the QA process at CCP works, but so far... it's kind of lacking.
Sure, you can't fix each and every possible bug, and you can't possibly check each and every detail, but when FUNDAMENTAL issues pass QA and make it into the game bugged, broken or simply not working at all as envisioned, you start asking yourself questions.
Heck, I *still* have 2 bug reports "attached to a defect", one of them is 9,the other 14 months old, ferchrissakes !
Also, a bug report that was "fixed" by removing functionality instead of correcting it, and last but not least another recent one that shouldn't have even passed QA to begin with (no manufacture lines in certain Black Rise assembly plants) "fixed in WAR" (whatever that codename might be refering to).

Ratchman
Posted - 2008.07.16 10:17:00 - [44]
 

I am relatively new to PVP and I have to admit, I'm finding FW a blast. This has filled in a gap between zero sec and high sec, and has proved to be immense fun. Yes, there will be a few issues to begin with, but these will be dealt with in time. If you find these are intolerable, don't participate. There are plenty of other things to do in EVE, and this wouldn't stop you from PVP'ing either. Personally, I have accepted these things as part of the universe and it doesn't bother me.

Oh, and to all you flamers, please do not post provocative messages in the forums. It's terribly tiresome, and you will never get anyone to admit you are right by hammering your opinion into them. Think to yourself: would you like such a response to anything that you post? Offer counter-arguments by all means, just try to be reasonable. ****-waving has never really achieved anything positive, except maybe a few cheap laughs.

Ratchman
Posted - 2008.07.16 10:20:00 - [45]
 

I can't believe I got censored there. Didn't think **** was that bad a word. Still, there we have it. Very Happy

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.16 10:29:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: oilio
The Militia can't shoot the ship with aggro. It isn't a war target, and any ship that fired on it would be CONCORDed immediately.

However the Faction Navy is shooting at it. And boy do those guys hurt. If only there was a way of breaking the spider tank without annoying CONCORD.

Any ideas?



Players with standing lower than -5.00 with a faction could be made valid target for the militia of the same faction. Character remote reping them should become valid targets too.

Clear and (it think) not too hard to implement.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.16 10:39:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 16/07/2008 10:43:38

Except that, allegedly, this is NOT done by -5.0 empire standings alts, but by regular standings alts.

The one logical conclusion would be to ALSO have any ship agressing enemy faction navy NPCs *or* assisting a player engaged in combat with enemy faction navy NPCs becoming a valid target for the corresponding militias, regardless of standings involved, on top of the -5.0 standings players becoming valid targets for the militias.

That, plus the navy NPCs should really pick their targets in a much more discriminate fashion - if aggro switching is possible in any way, and if the spawns are limited in any way, then it comes also quite naturally to have the NPCs warp to and agress on a "oldest in any grid in a system" cycling basis instead of a "whoever's nearest" / "whoever got aggro last" basis or any other such exploitable nonsense.

Syniztur
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.07.16 10:41:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 15/07/2008 09:18:43
Originally by: Vek NaVek
...

Well, since our dear devs, again, in their infinite wisdom decided that "discussing POSSIBLE exploits is forbidden"...
LoLz
Of course it's forbidden. Otherwise, the EvE community would realize that something is broken, and the DEVs would actually have to do some work for a change.

Commoner
Caldari
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.07.16 10:48:00 - [49]
 

WHy not let the players be the navies. Flag players when they enter their enemys space, so that anyone can kill them without consequence, like you can with below -5 players in lowsec.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.07.16 10:50:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Commoner
WHy not let the players be the navies.
"In The Navy" and YOU ARE THE DEMONS are now both playing in your head.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2008.07.16 10:59:00 - [51]
 

well read up the back story the book etc.. and you wil notice capsuleers are supposed to be all mighty more powerfull than the navies. The navies are NOT supposed to be ab le to hold a focused and organized capsuleer attack. That is the role of your militia. Don 't want to risk pvp then leave FW. simple.

Be completely realistic as well on the server load issues. If THenavy woudl spawn 2 BS for each hostile in system then the enemy navy coudl do even more damage. Would be extremely easy for example for gallente militia to completely halt and even drop Jita node due to excessive load.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2008.07.16 11:22:00 - [52]
 

Interesting, there are lots of ppl that don't read a thing but post same nonsence "navy isn't supposed to be concord, quit fw if you don't like it", even when noone in topic proposed to make navy any stronger.

Funkcikle
Gallente
DEATHFUNK
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.16 11:58:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Just playing the devil's advocate here...

To put it mildly, the NPC navies "logic" is so full of holes, that I really, really don't think they even have a purpose beyond being a mild annoyance to completely unprepared "factional enemies"... and therefore, being so useless, they serve more as a hinderance than a benefit, and we could just as well dispense with their existance altogether.
I mean, assuming that "fixing" them to actually work as intended would be too much of a bother, that is.
And by the way, we still haven't gotten any official response as to exactly how they are supposed to work in the first place.
All we got were cryptic patchnotes and devblog soundbites that are as interpretable as tea leaves in a cup.


It started with the whole "max 10 spawn sets per system", assuming everything else would have been working peachy.
First off, this alone is a gaping hole in itself already : any gang larger than 10 can have all pilots past the 11th already operate with impunity.
But wait, everything else is NOT working peachy at all either !

Second, we get the whole "aggro from FW NPC navies is transferrable".
So, w00t, now you don't even need the 11+ pilots you used to nee before... you just need one to get aggro and tank it all whichever way he sees most fit.

Am I done yet ? No way... the devs, in their infinite wisdom, initially decided that NEUTRALS don't need to be aggroed by the NPC navies if assisting a "hostile" FW target... meaning that you could just as easily get a bunch of neutral alts to repair one of the FW targets, the one that's "holding the aggro", and be on your merry way... which is seriously FUBAR right there.

But wait, there's MORE !
Apparently, now, it's actually possible to have the navy NPC spawns transfer aggro to... wait for it... the NEUTRALS, somehow !
Yes, if before you got the remote chance to catch that one tanking enemy FW ship wherever it was hidden, now you can't even get the chance to screw them over that way... since now, it's NEUTRALS that hold the navies in check... so you'd actually need to suicide-gank them in order to do something about it.


Bottom line, again, NPC faction spawns are a joke... a cruel joke, for whoever actually expected any kind of protection in their "own highsec" from the NPCs.
I'd say just get rid of this sham, and officially state the NPCs won't even bother to bother the enemy pilots, and the Faction Warfare is a bona fide player corp war, with no outside interference whatsoever.

At least that way you get to keep things honest.




Hey here's an Idea, why don't you Dock up and cry on the Forums about it squid

Friedrick Psitalon
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
Balance of Judgment
Posted - 2008.07.16 13:48:00 - [54]
 

I find myself wondering if you're even vaguely aware of the isk, skillpoints, and time required to develop a navy-tanking system. I also find myself wondering if you realize how easy to disrupt that system it is - including when the people doing it aren't even militia targets.

Seriously. If you spent a tenth the effort thinking about ways to solve the problem yourself, rather than have CCP solve them, you would've scored quite a few very expensive kills by now, gone miles towards dissuading people from making these raids in the future, and earned some respect for a militia that badly needs it. I'm genuinely not trying to smack here. The reputation of the CalMil is "when raw numbers can't win, whine on the forums." This is an easy puzzle to solve if you look at all the pieces, and you could score some REALLY nice loot as a side.

Learn to beat it. Imitate it in Dodixie and Oursulaert and Hek and (insert Minmatar mission system here, don't know it offhand, sorry.) The Navy isn't going to provide the kind of security you want. You should know that by now - it's been made clear. Start providing it yourself. The system is pathetically easy to disrupt, and the rewards far outweigh the risk.

Step up and make a name for yourself on something other than the forum.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.16 14:02:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon
Seriously. If you spent a tenth the effort thinking about ways to solve the problem yourself, rather than have CCP solve them, you would've scored quite a few very expensive kills by now, gone miles towards dissuading people from making these raids in the future, and earned some respect for a militia that badly needs it.
[...]
Step up and make a name for yourself on something other than the forum.

IF I would have actually ever been online WHILE any of these raids were conducted, you can bet I would have at least tried... so, personally I wasn't even affected. Some corpmates have been, however.
Since I don't exactly see you guys volunteering at least the date and time (if not also location, don't feel like going 30 jumps just to get there when it's over) of any of your next ops, I can only guess that's one event I'm not likely to witness in the near future, or at all.

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.07.16 14:54:00 - [56]
 

I haven't seen any post by CCP explaining how the navy 'ought' to be working or what kinds of behavior they should or should not be preventing.

You'd expect the faction navy would prevent long term camps by the enemy forces in their hi sec systems, but that could just be an assumption that bears no reality to what CCP actually wants.

As far as the various tricks/exploits/tactics/what have you for bypassing the Navy, best thing to do is publicize them as much as possible so that everyone is aware of them and how to counter them or even perform them. We know quite well from other MMO's that the best way to get something potentially exploitative fixed is to have the entire community 'abusing' it. And hey, if it winds up not being something exploitative, no harm done!

Funkcikle
Gallente
DEATHFUNK
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.16 14:59:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon
Seriously. If you spent a tenth the effort thinking about ways to solve the problem yourself, rather than have CCP solve them, you would've scored quite a few very expensive kills by now, gone miles towards dissuading people from making these raids in the future, and earned some respect for a militia that badly needs it.
[...]
Step up and make a name for yourself on something other than the forum.

IF I would have actually ever been online WHILE any of these raids were conducted, you can bet I would have at least tried... so, personally I wasn't even affected. Some corpmates have been, however.
Since I don't exactly see you guys volunteering at least the date and time (if not also location, don't feel like going 30 jumps just to get there when it's over) of any of your next ops, I can only guess that's one event I'm not likely to witness in the near future, or at all.



New Improved BOLD for whiter than white forum poast's

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.16 15:07:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon
Seriously. If you spent a tenth the effort thinking about ways to solve the problem yourself, rather than have CCP solve them, you would've scored quite a few very expensive kills by now, gone miles towards dissuading people from making these raids in the future, and earned some respect for a militia that badly needs it.
[...]
Step up and make a name for yourself on something other than the forum.

IF I would have actually ever been online WHILE any of these raids were conducted, you can bet I would have at least tried... so, personally I wasn't even affected. Some corpmates have been, however.
Since I don't exactly see you guys volunteering at least the date and time (if not also location, don't feel like going 30 jumps just to get there when it's over) of any of your next ops, I can only guess that's one event I'm not likely to witness in the near future, or at all.



7000 members of caldari militia. You would expect at least someone there could make an effort to do something but i guess whining is easier.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.16 15:13:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
7000 members of caldari militia. You would expect at least someone there could make an effort to do something but i guess whining is easier.

Hmm, let's see... around 400-600 online in the militia channel whenever I'm around, about 50-80 or so talking every now and then to say "x up for Tama blob" or similar only, then silence or casual chats from people IN corps that joined FW but not actually taking part in any of it at all.
I could probably scrounge up more people willing to form up and go do something out of my own corp, and we're MOSTLY idlers and casual mission-runners, just TRYING out FW... as idly as we can.

So, yeah, great argument, the "thousands upon thousands of people that signed up for the militia".
Active-participant-in-FW-wise, the Caldari militia has probably the LOWEST number of pilots.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.16 15:16:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Esmenet on 16/07/2008 15:16:15
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Esmenet
7000 members of caldari militia. You would expect at least someone there could make an effort to do something but i guess whining is easier.

Hmm, let's see... around 400-600 online in the militia channel whenever I'm around, about 50-80 or so talking every now and then to say "x up for Tama blob" or similar only, then silence or casual chats from people IN corps that joined FW but not actually taking part in any of it at all.
I could probably scrounge up more people willing to form up and go do something out of my own corp, and we're MOSTLY idlers and casual mission-runners, just TRYING out FW... as idly as we can.

So, yeah, great argument, the "thousands upon thousands of people that signed up for the militia".
Active-participant-in-FW-wise, the Caldari militia has probably the LOWEST number of pilots.



Then why dont you make a "Caldari militia get your **** together" post instead. Because thats essentially the issue here.


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