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Zero Temperature
Posted - 2008.07.14 12:54:00 - [1]
 

I don't know if this has been suggested before, so I will say it here.

In my opinion the clone upgrade option after a player gets pod killed is a bad idea, which requires a manual selection of clones to bring it back up to hold enough skill points. The reasons are:

1. It potentially gives people a reason to quit once they forget to upgrade it and get pod killed again.
2. It does not provide any positive gaming experience in any way and serves no purpose except giving people a chance to make mistakes.
3. Removing this feature could save a few server resources.

I don't know any company in its right mind would set a rule like this. I personally don't mind an automatic payment to buy a new clone, though the only problem I could see is that a player could be so broke that he couldn't afford a clone. A Dev comment is most welcome.

For trolls, no, I haven't make this mistake yet.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2008.07.14 13:39:00 - [2]
 

No.
Why ?
Search it.

Kransthow
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.14 14:22:00 - [3]
 

I don't know if this has been suggested before, so I will say it here.

In my opinion manually killing a player is a bad idea, which requires a manual selection of targets to shoot at and destroy. The reasons are:

1. It potentially gives people a reason to quit once they to forget target or shoot someone.
2. It does not provide any positive gaming experience in any way and serves no purpose except giving people a chance to make mistakes.
3. Removing this feature could save a few server resources.

I don't know any company in its right mind would set a rule like this. I personally don't mind an automatic targeter to shoot people, though the only problem I could see is that a player could be so broke that he couldn't afford ammo. A Dev comment is most welcome.

For trolls, no, I haven't make this mistake yet.

AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Atomic Geese
Posted - 2008.07.14 14:34:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 14/07/2008 14:35:17
Originally by: Kransthow
I don't know if this has been suggested before, so I will say it here.

In my opinion manually killing a player is a bad idea, which requires a manual selection of targets to shoot at and destroy. The reasons are:

1. It potentially gives people a reason to quit once they to forget target or shoot someone.
2. It does not provide any positive gaming experience in any way and serves no purpose except giving people a chance to make mistakes.
3. Removing this feature could save a few server resources.

I don't know any company in its right mind would set a rule like this. I personally don't mind an automatic targeter to shoot people, though the only problem I could see is that a player could be so broke that he couldn't afford ammo. A Dev comment is most welcome.

For trolls, no, I haven't make this mistake yet.


LaughingLaughingLaughing



To the op, tho. There are stations that you could set your clone to that don't have medical facilities, and placing your pod at risk, knowing it's going to cost you isk to replace it, should only be done assuming you understand that you may not have the isk to replace it should you die.

It's the same reason the insurance function exists; if you're pretty sure you're going to die, you get a clone and insure your ship (and possibly clone jump to save implants you may have).

If you're pretty sure you're not going to die, you don't bother with either, as they only cost more isk you're not going to use.

Once you've upgraded to clone x, getting the next clone level costs its original price minus the amount for the one you're upgrading from.


If people quit because they made a mistake, they're probably going to go cry like an emo kid? Rolling Eyes I personally know a guy, who gave my friend his alt, who got podded FOUR TIMES IN A ROW without a clone. You don't want to know what his skills look like now. Laughing


Oh yeah, and as for the 'I don't know of any company that would inforce a rule like this'; ever heard of casinos? Laughing

Zero Temperature
Posted - 2008.07.15 07:01:00 - [5]
 

You guys are missing my point. Player killing in game and casino gambling although both could lead to mistakes and subsequently taking loss, they also provide a chance to win and to have a positive gaming experience. However, this manual clone upgrade has nothing to be gained but only chance for loss.

Drizit
Amarr
Posted - 2008.07.15 10:50:00 - [6]
 

@Zero Temperature
A recent post I put in my corp website states the following:
Quote:
Your medical clone is probably the single most important thing in Eve, this is not not a jump clone but the one that holds your SP.

DON'T get podded without an up to date clone, you will lose SP.

If you plan to go out into combat, make sure it is up to date and can hold more SP than you currently have before you go. Make it a part of your checklist and get into a habit of ALWAYS checking it regardless of whether you already know or not because one day you may look and realise it isn't up to date. It's best you find out it isn't and rectify it BEFORE you get podded. To find out easily, look at the top of your Character Sheet where you normally go to train skills. The last line of information that appears at the top, next to your character portrait is your clone grade and the skillpoints it can hold.

Make sure you always have enough isk to replace it, even if this means you don't have enough left to replace your lost ship or fittings. A ship can be replaced quite quickly, Skill Points take a lot longer.

Always make sure the first thing you do is replace your clone after being podded. Don't put it off or leave it till you log in next or you may well forget to do it. I know you would check it before you went into combat next but it only needs a chance encounter with someone anywhere and you could lose SP.

Check where your clone will respawn you and make sure you always respawn in a station that has a medical facility. In a war situation, stations may well be camped so you may not be able to undock to get to another station to update your clone. Delaying until you can may result in you forgetting (see above).

If you are podded at any time in a chance encounter and don't have the isk to replace your clone, ask someone to lend you the isk if they can immediately you have the opportunity. Other members are well aware of the importance of your medical clone, it's unlikely that they will refuse so long as you don't abuse it. Ie: We won't keep lending you isk for you to replace your clone just so you can keep going out looking for trouble and losing it in PVP.

Your clone is your responsibility but we don't want members suddenly being unable to fly certain ships that they nomally use in fleet ops because it may hamper the operations.

You would do well to read and heed.

CCP is not going to change the way the clone works.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.15 11:08:00 - [7]
 

yeah its a b**** if you get podded with no clone but even then you will probably only lose a month or so of training.

Also being able to do this to an enemy by destroying their stations medical service then podding them; afterwards they either have to risk losing sp by fighting or leave.

Zero Temperature
Posted - 2008.07.15 12:40:00 - [8]
 

@Drizit
This topic is not about the consequence of being podded without an updated clone, or how careful people should be, which we are all very well aware of. This is to discuss, from game designers' perspective, the neccessity of upgrading clone manually.

@Typhado3
Disabling the medical facility of an enemy station is a valid tactic, but it still does not justify the necessity of upgrading clone manually. Once a player is respawn from a station with medical facilty incapped based on his prior clone contract, the station can reasonably no longer fullfill this future contract for him/her. A menu could be brought up requiring the player to select another station for his/her new clone contract, and clone upgrade automatically done. The same tactic could still work without the said player manually upgrading clone.

So the point is:

Does making clone upgrade automatic change any game dynamics? No.
Does it make people, including CCP programers, technicians and accoutants, happier with these extra lines of coding? So far I don't see it.

Then why keep it?

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.07.15 15:03:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kransthow
I don't know if this has been suggested before, so I will say it here.

In my opinion manually killing a player is a bad idea, which requires a manual selection of targets to shoot at and destroy. The reasons are:

1. It potentially gives people a reason to quit once they to forget target or shoot someone.
2. It does not provide any positive gaming experience in any way and serves no purpose except giving people a chance to make mistakes.
3. Removing this feature could save a few server resources.

I don't know any company in its right mind would set a rule like this. I personally don't mind an automatic targeter to shoot people, though the only problem I could see is that a player could be so broke that he couldn't afford ammo. A Dev comment is most welcome.

For trolls, no, I haven't make this mistake yet.


You get a Gold Medal of EVE forum, for today.
LaughingLaughingLaughing





Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.07.15 15:09:00 - [10]
 

It's called an "ISK Sink"

It's very popular, and often suggested by other players as a justification for their various outlandish and off-the-wall ideas.

The idea being, if you have money left over after buying a ship, and modules, and ammo... then you won't have motivation to go out and make more money.

So simple processes, like updating a clone, are made to give yet another place for money to go. Then when you get yourself killed, you have to spend more money. And if you run out, you have motivation to continue playing the game, to make it back.


Updating a clone is a very simple process. Just like loading ammo into a weapon is simple. Just like buying insurance is simple. And if you are forget to do any of those before a fight... then you deserve to lose something, to help you remember next time.

Drizit
Amarr
Posted - 2008.07.15 15:23:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Zero Temperature
@Drizit
This topic is not about the consequence of being podded without an updated clone, or how careful people should be, which we are all very well aware of. This is to discuss, from game designers' perspective, the neccessity of upgrading clone manually.

The main thing I was pointing out is that it is and always has been a manual process. Part of the reasoning is that if you want to respawn close to your POS or main area that you wish to defend, it may not have a medical facility. You are then gambling by going out into a war zone without an up to date clone.

When you buy mods for a ship, does it automatically fit them for you? When you buy a ship, do you automatically get the insurance premium deducted? When you go mission running, is the salvage all neatly stacked in a single can and waiting for your return with a salvage vessel?

The answer to all these is no. Things in this game are not automated, to automate these processes would be to dumb down the game far too much and take away the players freedom of choice. If I CHOOSE not to update my clone, I take the risk of losing SP but that choice is still mine to make. Most of us would not even want the game to take away this freedom of choice we have.

Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.07.15 15:45:00 - [12]
 

I have to agree with this one strongly. I never thought it was a good game mechanic to include the possiblity that somebody who say had 20 mil skillpoints (or even more) to get caught in a situation where they for whatever reason get podded with say the newbie clone and end up back at 900K SP.

Sure the guy might have made a bad mistake and forgot to update his clone after being podded, however getting 20M sp will take well over a year to go back to, and that sort of loss would easily cause any player to pack up eve and never come back no matter how hardcore you are. Its simply a game mechanic which makes no sense because there is no benefit to having it.

You could still force somebody to feel the sting of death by changing the death penalty for being podded to somthing else harsh that will preserve more of your sp. For example if you recieved your second best clone for your current SP as a free clone when podded you will retain most of your SP but take a fairly powerful hit to your SP which will likely set you back months. The damage done by loosing sp in this way would increase as your sp gets higher since the gap in the amount of Sp clones hold suddenly becomes larger. In any case you should take a sp loss if you forget or are killed when unable to update your clone, but it should be limited to 10% of your total SP up to a maximum of 5M sp.

This would make a death such as that painful but it would be something you can get through and repair after a few months. You might not be able to fly some of your new ships, but you will be able to fly most of the ships you had trained for already.

There are several ways to get caught in this situation, and one of mose extreme I can think of would be devastating to a character. Imagine being in 0.0 as your outpost is sieged, die in the fight and your pod gets returned to your station which used to be safe. They destroyed the medical facility and now your stuck in hostile space with no clone. If you get podded now you go from 30M sp to 900K, and there is nothing you can do about this, I have just been punished for playing the game.

I have never been in this situation, but however unlikely it is the fact is if I got podded in that scenario I would loose everything and be compelled to quit the game because it would take years to get back to my former self, years down the drain. Sure it might make sense from a story perspective, but from a game design perspective they just punished a player heavily for participating in game mechanics the way you created them, and now lost a player with nobody gaining anything from the experience.

Zirconium Blade
Ass Pounding Space Monkeys
Posted - 2008.07.15 16:23:00 - [13]
 

Eve is cold and dark, and mistakes have consequences. Should CCP automatically put ammo for your guns in your cargo hold?

Besides, getting podded without a medical clone only makes you lose something like 10% of your highest ranked skill. It does not reset you to 900k sp. Although some argue it should :)

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.07.15 16:31:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Jinx Barker on 15/07/2008 16:32:39
Originally by: Zanquis
I have to agree with this one strongly. I never thought it was a good game mechanic to include the possiblity that somebody who say had 20 mil skillpoints (or even more) to get caught in a situation where they for whatever reason get podded with say the newbie clone and end up back at 900K SP.


LOL you have no concept of how Podding works then, do you? You will never loose ALL of your SP. All that happens if the clone is not up to date is that you loose a percentage of your HIGHEST RANKED/HIGHEST SP skill, just one skill. You would never loose anything like 19 Mill SP on 20 Mill SP character if your Clone is not up to date.

Example:

Highest Skill Rank/SP: Racial Cruiser L5
No Proper Clone
Podding
Lost SP = Racial Cruiser L4 - need to re-train to L5.

Jesus, people still don't know how this game works.

STOP ASKING TO HAVE YOUR HAND HELD AND LEARN HOW THE F(ing) GAME MECHANICS WORK BEFORE SPOUTING IGNORANT RUBBISH AND MAKING YOURSELF LOOK FOOLISH IN THE PROCESS.

Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.07.16 01:08:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Zanquis on 16/07/2008 01:09:02
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Edited by: Jinx Barker on 15/07/2008 16:32:39
Originally by: Zanquis
I have to agree with this one strongly. I never thought it was a good game mechanic to include the possiblity that somebody who say had 20 mil skillpoints (or even more) to get caught in a situation where they for whatever reason get podded with say the newbie clone and end up back at 900K SP.


LOL you have no concept of how Podding works then, do you? You will never loose ALL of your SP. All that happens if the clone is not up to date is that you loose a percentage of your HIGHEST RANKED/HIGHEST SP skill, just one skill. You would never loose anything like 19 Mill SP on 20 Mill SP character if your Clone is not up to date.

Example:

Highest Skill Rank/SP: Racial Cruiser L5
No Proper Clone
Podding
Lost SP = Racial Cruiser L4 - need to re-train to L5.

Jesus, people still don't know how this game works.

STOP ASKING TO HAVE YOUR HAND HELD AND LEARN HOW THE F(ing) GAME MECHANICS WORK BEFORE SPOUTING IGNORANT RUBBISH AND MAKING YOURSELF LOOK FOOLISH IN THE PROCESS.


Thank you for your reply, but stop acting like a ****.

Its quite possible that nobody knows that because there is no readily available documentation on the subject, the only people who likely know are fourm trolls or people who have made the mistake before.

I have been in this game for several years now and never made the mistake, and have been petrified to make it for obvious reasons.

Stop acting like an elite know it all **** down your nose on other people when you should very well know that exactly how sp loss is handled when your podded without an up to date clone is not common knowledge.

If this is in fact the way it works, I find it a reasonable penalty. I however wouldn't like to try it and would much rather see official documentation saying how this works

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.07.16 02:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Zanquis
Thank you for your reply, but stop acting like a ****.

Its quite possible that nobody knows that because there is no readily available documentation on the subject, the only people who likely know are fourm trolls or people who have made the mistake before.

I have been in this game for several years now and never made the mistake, and have been petrified to make it for obvious reasons.

Stop acting like an elite know it all **** down your nose on other people when you should very well know that exactly how sp loss is handled when your podded without an up to date clone is not common knowledge.

If this is in fact the way it works, I find it a reasonable penalty. I however wouldn't like to try it and would much rather see official documentation saying how this works


Hmmm... OK, what surprises me, and OK, I will accept the "****" comment, is that you admitted that: you "have been in this game for several years" and according to your signature you have Kill#132, and yet you never thought about going on to SiSi and just poding yourself with a Low Grade clone to see what happens?

Or learned, from others perhaps, during 132 successful PVP encounters that, indeed, you do not loose the entirety of your SP, but a percentage of the Highest SP/Rank Skill.

I suppose not everyone would know such minute details, but I am sure that it is written somewhere in the Knowledge Base, I mean, seriously, I know I was less than amiable, to say the least, but then for a veteran EVE player like yourself this should be rather embarrassing as well.

It just puzzles me that someone could spend so many years in the game and miss such basic mechanics, that is all.

None the less, I apologize for being an *******, although I fully believe I was pretty much on the mark, I still hate belittling people, even on the internet forums.

And I am glad you agree that the so called "death penalty" in EVE is rather mild when it comes to greater things and loss of expensive modules and or ships.

Zero Temperature
Posted - 2008.07.16 06:51:00 - [17]
 

@Marcus Gideon
Making clone upgrade automatic does not mean clone upgrading is free.

@Drizit
As I pointed out in my previous post, there is no reason you should be able to continue your clone contract on a staion with medical facility incapped. When you respawn in such a station, it should require you to move your clone contract elsewhere. You are not supposed to have the option to respawn there again until the medical facility is repaired.
As to your new analogies of fitting ships, insurance, and salvaging loots, they all have one common point that all those options could give you various goods and bads. However, manually upgrading clone could only lead to bad or nothing.
Then now you bring up the option of not upgrading clone by choice. I believe, which many people should also agree, it is pretty safe to assume that a player who would decide to do this on his/her main has no desire to keep playing this game. Why would CCP want to keep this option open only to please those people?

@Zirconium Blade
As stated above, options of loading various ammo have various goods and bads, which are real choices, but manually upgrading clone is not.

@Jinx Barker
Thanks for filling up the information for those who didn't know. However, the topic here is not about how serious or how mild the death penalty is. In fact, this is not even a death penalty. It is actually more a memory test failure penalty or something.

Kel Nissa
Posted - 2008.07.16 17:43:00 - [18]
 

Just something funny:

When you undock without a graded clone: no undock warning.
--> consequence: sp loss = really expensive

When you undock with some illegal tags in your cargo: there is a warning.
--> consequence: peanuts

So currently it seems like:
a) we lack on an undock warning
or
b) other undock warnings should be removed

Kel

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.07.16 18:03:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Kel Nissa
Just something funny:

When you undock without a graded clone: no undock warning.
--> consequence: sp loss = really expensive

When you undock with some illegal tags in your cargo: there is a warning.
--> consequence: peanuts

So currently it seems like:
a) we lack on an undock warning
or
b) other undock warnings should be removed

Kel

That's a good point... and a good idea.

Why automate the process, when a simple warning could suffice. And if someone KNOWS they haven't updated their clone, they can check a box and ignore the warning from then on.

Zero Temperature
Posted - 2008.07.18 11:44:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Marcus Gideon

Why automate the process, when a simple warning could suffice. And if someone KNOWS they haven't updated their clone, they can check a box and ignore the warning from then on.


Let me sum it up,
a warning message for clone upgrade = giving you a stupid memory test and then making it even more stupid by telling you the answer;
automate the clone upgrade = removing this stupid memory test.

For a process that serves absolutely no purpose except to punish the players, I prefer the latter.Laughing

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.07.20 12:42:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 20/07/2008 12:46:57
I wouldn't mind either a warning or an option to auto-upgrade after death if possible, or both.

I don't think it has any consequence on the 'cold harsh world' which some people like to spout; EVE is cold and harsh enough, we don't really need to make every damn minutiae something to remember. This isn't a job, it's a game, we shouldn't need a filofax, task list, and diary just to play it.

It's the far future for god's sake, and I have an AI in my ship - why the hell would I not program it to remind me for the really important activities? As for it being hand-holding? Is it? Really? There are times I think some players aren't happy unless each and every activity is an RSI-inducing logic puzzle. How about we have a few more clicks for undocking, maybe a game or two before it allows you out? Maybe before you undock you have to manually tighten all the screws in the hull? Hardcore enough for you?


 

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