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Quarantein
Posted - 2008.07.06 09:43:00 - [1]
 

Noob here, 3 - 4 months old or so, and just got ganked in a mission in .4. Not here to complain about it in particular. Had been in and out of that system for a few weeks now without any issues, never even saw anybody with neg security status there.

Was running my lvl4 and had a guy in a celestis come in and scram and damp me. I'm engaged with two NPC BS and some BC's but tanking it all, so I try to engage him before his buddies show up. About that time a dominix shows up and engages me. It takes me about 30 seconds or so to pop, and by this time I'm already shaking.

I had just built my Domi, bought the blueprint and mined the minerals and literally built it. Previous to that I had a lvl4 mission I couldnt finish in my Myr and canceled it, and lost so much status I had to run lvl3's again for a while. So this is my first lvl4 in a BS, and going good, killing things twice as fast as my Myr, and I get jumped.

My question is, is a WCS the only way to break being scrambled? Other than killing the guy scraming me of course. I also dont get how he was jamming me from 40k+ away. I looked in the item DB and the longest range I saw was 24k for T2 disruptor, dunno about faction versions. But I couldnt warp out and was damped down to about 17k targeting range. So what could I have had equiped or done in that situation? Question

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.07.06 09:47:00 - [2]
 

Stay in hi-sec you should.
Rewards better they are.

Steve Celeste
Overdogs
Posted - 2008.07.06 09:51:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Quarantein
I also dont get how he was jamming me from 40k+ away. I looked in the item DB and the longest range I saw was 24k for T2 disruptor, dunno about faction versions. But I couldnt warp out and was damped down to about 17k targeting range. So what could I have had equiped or done in that situation? Question

Lachesis gets bonus on disrupter range.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.07.06 09:51:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
Stay in hi-sec you should.
Rewards better they are.


No, they're not better. They're just not much worse, and given the overhead of operating in lowsec - even if you don't lose ships, you're still going to be evading hostiles and watching the scanner - it's not worth it.

Quarantein
Posted - 2008.07.06 09:55:00 - [5]
 

My agent was in high-sec, but of course right next to low-sec... I will be from now on though. They were nice about it, didn't pod me and offered to let me come back and finish the mission (don't think I would have though, I mean come on, they already killed me once)

I just don't get how if a WCS is the only way to break a scramble, how they expect you to fit it. It cuts your sensor strength in half. And even if you do have one equiped, if two people scram you your screwed unless you have two. It would be completely different if it was a module you could activate like the description says, but to have those penalties 100% of the time is crazy unless I'm just missing something...

And now that I think about it nobody can "haZ my sTufF" cause I'm not leaving...

Quarantein
Posted - 2008.07.06 09:57:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Quarantein
I also dont get how he was jamming me from 40k+ away. I looked in the item DB and the longest range I saw was 24k for T2 disruptor, dunno about faction versions. But I couldnt warp out and was damped down to about 17k targeting range. So what could I have had equiped or done in that situation? Question

Lachesis gets bonus on disrupter range.


Thanks, that looks like what he was in...

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.07.06 10:03:00 - [7]
 


Losing ships are part of Eve, but I recommend doing missions in high sec. They are good enough. CCP hasnt wanted to make the low sec ones more profitable.

Micia
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.07.06 10:08:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Quarantein
and by this time I'm already shaking.


Crazy feeling. I still get that, whether winning or losing. Go adrenalin! ugh

Originally by: Quarantein
is a WCS the only way to break being scrambled? Other than killing the guy scraming me of course.


You can also use EC Drones to break the enemy's lock on you, or use other EC modules to break his lock. Hopefully, while the drones/mods are trying to do their thing, you've aligned to something to warp out to... so you can zip off the second lock breaks. (If not in hi-sec, it's just a good practice to keep aligned beforehand, anyway.)

Also, are you sure that it was the enemy warp-scrambling? Some mission/belt rats also do this, so it could have been them as well. If you have the "Tag" column open on your overview, there's a little icon next to who is doing what.

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.07.06 10:16:00 - [9]
 

The only 100% sure way is to use a WCS. However as you know this hurts targeting range and sensors.

Given the distance you might could have used a Remote Sensor Dampener to break his lock but they don't always work and you probably needed 2 at least which hurts your tank.

Shorter range you can use an ecm burst but they are not always 100% effective either.

Seems you are taking it pretty well though. :).

Quarantein
Posted - 2008.07.06 10:31:00 - [10]
 

Well, it is only a game, although I seem to play it as much as I work. Although as my pod was warping away I did fling my mouse across the room. The replacement works pretty good... :)

I just never could get a lock on the guy in the lechesis, and couldnt close the distance on him, he of course was faster than my BS. I just don't get how they expect you to counter a gank with using a WCS, which seriously gimps you IMO. Like I said if it was able to be turned on and off it would work perfect. At first I thought it was like that because of the description, so I equiped it. But then I realised it was on 100% of the time and thought WTF good does this do. I can understand getting penalized while trying to get away, but penalized 100% of the time for being cautious?

It's kind of like strapping your fridge to the roof of the car just in case you get hungry when your driving around...

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.07.06 10:34:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/07/2008 10:35:10
Originally by: Quarantein
I can understand getting penalized while trying to get away, but penalized 100% of the time for being cautious?



Then everybody would use them in pvp to get away as well. There was a period on Eve when they werent penalized at all, and everybody used them in all their setups basically. It was nearly impossible to get a kill since everybody just warped off.


Ioci
Gallente
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2008.07.06 10:41:00 - [12]
 

Don't waste time with low sec missions. There is no way to defend against the gankers and solo the mission. Fit to solo and they will own you. Now they they know you have a mission there, they will hunt you like an animal because it's their jolly. To make you miserable. Don't ask me to explain this mindset. I don't know what to say. Eve doesn't even need agents in most low sec systems. They don't get used, the exception being nooblets who learn the hard way like you, then they don't use them any more either. You speak Gallente and if you are, Send Ioci a mail IG and we can run some missions to get you back up to level 4 status. Then find a high sec agent and go to town. Trust me, the misery you are going to go through in low sec isn't worth it.

Quarantein
Posted - 2008.07.06 10:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/07/2008 10:35:10
Originally by: Quarantein
I can understand getting penalized while trying to get away, but penalized 100% of the time for being cautious?



Then everybody would use them in pvp to get away as well. There was a period on Eve when they werent penalized at all, and everybody used them in all their setups basically. It was nearly impossible to get a kill since everybody just warped off.




So where's the middle ground? Right now I can either play in high-sec, or fit a WCS and severely hamper my ability to play in low-sec. "Play" meaning to run a mission or even just travel through the area. And I'm all for being able to get a kill, and maybe I'm just to noob to see how to get out of or around it.

I dunno maybe remove the penalties from the WCS, but instead of just letting me warp off, when the WCS is activated my align time is 2-3 times longer. Then you still have a chance to kill, but I have a way to get out of the situation and not gimp myself for the other 95% of my playtime...

Savage Creampuff
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:08:00 - [14]
 

play with friends. missions go faster and because of your numbers you can 'gimp' your pve fit with a more robust pvp fit to defend yourself if needed

Vim
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:11:00 - [15]
 

If your not familliar with the counters to being probed out id recommend staying aligned. Your mission will take longer, but you will be out of there in the instant **** goes up and spreads across the ceilling.

Micia
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Quarantein
So where's the middle ground? Right now I can either play in high-sec, or fit a WCS and severely hamper my ability to play in low-sec. "Play" meaning to run a mission or even just travel through the area.


WCS won't hinder you in any fashion, that's what you're looking to do. It's more a travel-tool than anything else.

The longer locking-times (on a mission) is not really a problem. Most NPC rats take their sweet time locking you to even start with, so it's not a burden on lo-sec mission killing. And honestly, the reason you have it equipped is to get away - not stay for a longer fight, when hostile pilots jump you.

If you're just passing through, then a WCS could maybe help get away from a camped stargate... not going to save you when you jump through and small frigates (that don't open fire) bump you all over the place (stopping your align) while the larger ships that can tank gate-guns do their business. Your suggestion to increase align time would not work in your best interests, just sayin'. ugh

Maybe get involved with a corp or alliance that is in the lo-sec areas you like to frequent?


Clytamnestra
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:11:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Quarantein
Had been in and out of that system for a few weeks now without any issues, never even saw anybody with neg security status there.



If you've been missioning for a few weeks before losing one Dominix, then I say it probably paid for itself.

On another note, don't gimp yourself with WCS. Instead, keep your eyes on local and scan for probes scanning for you.

Or, and this is by far the best solution, get some friends and don't fly solo.

VicturusTeSaluto
Gallente
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:17:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 06/07/2008 11:18:07
Originally by: Ioci
Now they they know you have a mission there, they will hunt you like an animal because it's their jolly. To make you miserable. Don't ask me to explain this mindset. I don't know what to say.


That is possible, but it is more likely that this is how they make isk. Not everyone carebears for isk. Mission busting can be very profitable and is how some of us make a living in EVE.

I prefer the forced extraction of wealth to any other method of earning isk. It is never boring, and always satisfying.


Also, never fit stabs. They will either have a heavy interdictor, or they will have more points than you have stabs, or they will just bump you. Doing low sec missions with stabs slows you down considerably and is certainly less profitable than doing missions in high sec.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:17:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Quarantein
So where's the middle ground?


The middle ground is you paying attention to your surroundings, keep checking local, scan for scan probes, be aligned. You shouldn't trust on modules but rather on your brains, effort and preparation. That or be with corpmates who also have proper ships.

Doing things solo while not paying attention means you'll get stomped on. No module is going to save you from that.


Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:18:00 - [20]
 

To stay safe in low sec you need to learn to pay attention to local and use your directional scanner. Stay aligned to a station so you can instawarp if they come for you. You can use things like ecm to break locks to get away but its not as dependable as simply beeing careful. If you do this you will be close to 100% safe in low sec. The problem is that if you spend a lot of time avoiding pirates your isk/time quickly becomes lower than doing high sec missions.

sxndy
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:19:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: sxndy on 06/07/2008 11:40:37
Originally by: Vim
If your not familliar with the counters to being probed out id recommend staying aligned. Your mission will take longer, but you will be out of there in the instant **** goes up and spreads across the ceilling.


Spoilsport ;p

To Quarantein:

It was an arazu, check your killmail and a warp stab wouldn't help as you had 2 points on you.

Thanks for the kind words, we wouldn't have killed you again in that mission. As proved by my offer to complete it for you.


Khlitouris RegusII
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:21:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
Stay in hi-sec you should.
Rewards better they are.


When you know what your talking about post again.

Gojyu
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:24:00 - [23]
 

I found the killmail for your loss. You weren't hit by a celestis, you were tackled by an arazu. There are a lot of ways to prevent these losses and avoid being scrammed, but they involve not getting gaught in the first place. The second that arazu locked you, you were dead. The middle ground you talk about is not putting yourself in a position that you could have lost your ship. The good news is that you learnt that lesson in a pretty cheap fitting, rather than something expensive

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:24:00 - [24]
 

If the mission in Question requires the use of a warp gate, park a scout alt on the warp gate. The hostile may, or might not, pop the scout, but they will have to use the gate to reach you.

Basicly, the ONLY viable option in such situations is to assume that any unknown is scanning you down, has the skills to do it quickly, and the firepower to be a threat. If you can arrange warning for yourself (such as the alt on the warp gate), you can survive.

Izo Azlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:32:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Izo Azlion on 06/07/2008 11:31:47
Originally by: Quarantein
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/07/2008 10:35:10
Originally by: Quarantein
I can understand getting penalized while trying to get away, but penalized 100% of the time for being cautious?



Then everybody would use them in pvp to get away as well. There was a period on Eve when they werent penalized at all, and everybody used them in all their setups basically. It was nearly impossible to get a kill since everybody just warped off.




So where's the middle ground? Right now I can either play in high-sec, or fit a WCS and severely hamper my ability to play in low-sec. "Play" meaning to run a mission or even just travel through the area. And I'm all for being able to get a kill, and maybe I'm just to noob to see how to get out of or around it.

I dunno maybe remove the penalties from the WCS, but instead of just letting me warp off, when the WCS is activated my align time is 2-3 times longer. Then you still have a chance to kill, but I have a way to get out of the situation and not gimp myself for the other 95% of my playtime...


WCS is a last resort. Thats why people use them, that, and people who seem to think they'll save them all the time, and that they shouldnt watch the scanner.

If your assailant was in a Arazu, the following wont really apply, but if its a Lachesis - you should have seen it on max range scan at 360 degrees. This, and using local, is a much better WCS than the module itself. Frankly, if they probed your mission out using a lachesis, then they were there for several minutes. That was your preparation time. You had minutes to warp, they, as far as they knew, had mere moments to get in and make the tackle.

I respect your efforts to mission in low sec. However, you should know the above and the game mechanics before flying something you cant afford to lose in a dangerous environment. The loss itself is your own fault, so rather than destroying your mouse, learn from it and carry on.

Cheers,


Ioci
Gallente
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:32:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 06/07/2008 11:18:07
Originally by: Ioci
Now they they know you have a mission there, they will hunt you like an animal because it's their jolly. To make you miserable. Don't ask me to explain this mindset. I don't know what to say.


That is possible, but it is more likely that this is how they make isk. Not everyone carebears for isk. Mission busting can be very profitable and is how some of us make a living in EVE.

I prefer the forced extraction of wealth to any other method of earning isk. It is never boring, and always satisfying.


Also, never fit stabs. They will either have a heavy interdictor, or they will have more points than you have stabs, or they will just bump you. Doing low sec missions with stabs slows you down considerably and is certainly less profitable than doing missions in high sec.


I don't buy that for an instant. I know how much it takes to T2 fit a T2 ship and player drops from mission runners isn't going to pay for those ships. That's pure hogwash. It's an excuse to hound people, nothing more. I'm not judging but I see no point in pretending it is something it isn't.

El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:39:00 - [27]
 

since it normally takes a bit of time to scan down a deadspace pocket (its much harder than finding someone in normal space), you might consider to get away from the warp-in point of the mission, as all ships using a acceleration gate land at that spot.

if you are 100km away, it will not be easy to lock you down, before you get out. of course, a cloaker might still surprise you, but in many missions there are clouds and other celestial items that decloak incoming ships.

so you are really never safe, keep an eye open on local population and scan your surrounding frequently in addition.

Ioci
Gallente
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:44:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Ioci on 06/07/2008 11:45:24
double post

Ioci
Gallente
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2008.07.06 11:45:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: El Kaposo
since it normally takes a bit of time to scan down a deadspace pocket (its much harder than finding someone in normal space), you might consider to get away from the warp-in point of the mission, as all ships using a acceleration gate land at that spot.

if you are 100km away, it will not be easy to lock you down, before you get out. of course, a cloaker might still surprise you, but in many missions there are clouds and other celestial items that decloak incoming ships.

so you are really never safe, keep an eye open on local population and scan your surrounding frequently in addition.


This is actually a good idea. You can't sneak up on people in deapspace pockets, cloaked or otherwise. Teh beacon will decloak you. The thing is, you will spend enough downtime due to pirates in sys that you lose any small advantage low sec missions might give you. If you want to spend your time entertaining someone else, mission in low sec. If you prefer to simply mission, do it in high sec. If you need ISK, rat in 0.0 with a salvage fit to the last high slot. Do it in a fleet though or you will be camping safespots trying to avoid entertaining other people.

Celesphira
Perkone
Posted - 2008.07.06 12:02:00 - [30]
 

The Arazu is a fairly common ship for this sort of thing, given that it can mount a probe launcher, move cloaked, scramble the target at range and use it's dampners to prevent the target from locking it back. It's not terribly practical except in a deadspace mission pocket, but it works brilliantly there.

WCS isn't your only answer, in this case, you should watch your directional scanner for probes, move away from the beacon, stay aligned to jump, and in general be alert. In the case of a cloaked Arazu (Which should be decloaked by the beacon long enough for you to notice him), your primary counter would be sensor boosters (rather than WCS, and have the added bonus of boosting your lock range/time) with range scripts, in an attempt to counter the damps so you can sic your drones on him. In a domi, you should be able to spare a mid or two without compromising your mission fit.

The Arazu can't MWD in a deadspace pocket, you your drones are likely to catch him, and while I don't fly gallente recons, I imagine a flight of heavy drones from a dominix would really crimp his style. You may not escape before his friends arrive, but you can at least try, right?


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