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cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.07.03 13:26:00 - [31]
 

Just read Shar's audit.

Question:

If you own a Golem and have good PVE skills, why don't you grind lvl 4's in high sec. They earn more per hr than high sec mining?

Also, I would still like the confirmation that to mine your way through this IPO you need to mine 50-60 hours a month to give a 6% ROI for investors as the IPO stands.
With more than 1 character to handle it is very intensive mining. These figures are assuming 5 hulk miners.

If there are 4 miners then it 60-70 hours a month.

Are you willing to mine that much???

Not bloody likely!!

YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
Posted - 2008.07.03 14:12:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: YouGotRipped on 03/07/2008 14:14:03
Damn it... and I could have sworn this was a poorly devised scam attempt. ugh
Oh well... Mephie you have my apologies.

Still, as jna pointed out you need to further detail the financial aspect of this IPO and ask for the minimum funds required to set things in motion.
That said, I would love to help you guys and buy whatever ores you mine on the spot thus sparing you at least in part from hauling.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.07.03 15:56:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: jna
And, you guys! Ya should have run this by me before posting in the shark-infested waters of MD Very Happy
Sorry if I seemed overly clinical in my review of matters, I tend to get that way when working. I think the above is the most clear and best thing said so far.

I agree, I don't think this is a scam. That being said this ipo is built around requirements and resources that is very hard to substantiate before it commences. Around here, you can't ask for 1 billion without being able to prove the majority of what you supposition. 13 billion??

The "risky" part of this plan is just that it is risky. In a sense saying that is not great but around here it is far better to be a "risky" operation that is most likely "not a scam" than to be a well oiled machine that no one will trust, ever.

I think this IPO needs to be repackaged, better defined, and mayhap re-envisioned a little. From what I've seen, these guys could be involved in good business. I'm just not sure if the present plan is supported by their skills and activity levels.

And yes, we are sharks here.

Digression: I have an excel spreadsheet that I use to concatenate the necessary urls for use. I.e.:

http
://api.eve-online.com
?userID=
&apiKey=
&characterID=

Concatenate what you need while inserting the various key bits into the urls. Then copy and paste the resulting list of urls into a plain jane text file and refer Rafabot to use that instead of any kind of dynamic url generation.

Kwint Sommer
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.03 16:08:00 - [34]
 

Questions of trust and actual cost aside, I don't like investments that require a ton of work to be sustained for the length of it. Heavy setup time is one thing but when they have to put more than 15 hours a month into it for the duration, it's a bad sign. Why? Because you're asking someone to treat it like it's a real job but they're making less than minimum wage for their efforts. Even if they don't burn out, they're going to realize they could have put half the time in at as a bag boy and bought GTC's instead.

This much mining will result in either them burning out or wising up and buying GTC's. Neither bodes well for investors.

Then there's the question of where the hell 13B is going? I could train a lot more than 5 hulk pilots with 13B.

I don't feel that it's all that scrungy, just poorly thought out and extremely likely to fail.

jna
Caldari
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.07.03 16:29:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: jna on 03/07/2008 16:29:32
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: jna
And, you guys! Ya should have run this by me before posting in the shark-infested waters of MD Very Happy
Sorry if I seemed overly clinical in my review of matters, I tend to get that way when working. I think the above is the most clear and best thing said so far.


Good god. The day that 'being overly clinical as an auditor' becomes a bad thing is the day the seas boil and the dead rise from the grave.

Edit: fixed quote marks

Mephie
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.07.03 17:22:00 - [36]
 

To answer the 13billion dollar question:
We dont want to burn out. I know what mining is like. And I know, mining to survive the early months will kill us. And that's not good for us or you.
We're planning on mining about 8 hours a week, thats two weekday 2-hour ops, and a 4-hour on the weekend. The numbers I ran are based on 8-hour weeks.
But before I get into those numbers, to answer the 15% worker payout:
My current leadership skills allow me to increase the yield of the miners 24.9%, so we're just taking some of the cream off. When I train Director 5, and drop a Mindlink in my head, the cream will be a little sweeter, and I can easily have that done before the miners are in hulks.

Some numbers:
We currently have a 300day skill plan for the miners, which take them to Exhumer5, IceHarv5, Racial Drone Specs 4, Drone Int5, Refining Eff4, T2 mining drones, some others, 15mil sp total. We left it at 300days so we would have 60 or so days worth of skill training time in case we left something out.

And we're not devoting all of our playing time to mining, we'll still be running missions, exploring, plex running, and doing all the things we do now, but you guys get 8 hours of our time a week to make dividends.

From my estimates, if we dont have to worry about paying for GTCs from the op proceeds(we get the 13bil goal), we're looking at minimum 3% return in the first month of ops (week 2-6), 3rd month(week 10-14) will see at least 7%, and month 5 (week 22-26) will see about 10%. Months 2 and 4 will see divs somewhere in he middle. And Month 6 shouldnt get a whole lot better for divs, cause we're pretty much topped out, and are training skills to add value to the miners.

I talked with JNA ingame, and he's pledged to invest 4bil, so with D23 and my investment money, we can start. When D23 drops by later we'll make the miners and get them started, 2 weeks after that we'll start our ops. I'll keep an eye out here for any more questions, concerns, or investments. And once the share creation vote is finished w/LURCH, I'll get with EGSE to post up some shares.

--Meph


Mephie
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.07.03 17:23:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 03/07/2008 14:14:03
Damn it... and I could have sworn this was a poorly devised scam attempt. ugh


Nope, it's a well planned (IMO) but poorly communicated (in everyones opinion) offer. Embarassed
--Meph

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.07.03 17:33:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Mephie
To answer the 13billion dollar question:
We dont want to burn out. I know what mining is like. And I know, mining to survive the early months will kill us. And that's not good for us or you.
We're planning on mining about 8 hours a week, thats two weekday 2-hour ops, and a 4-hour on the weekend. The numbers I ran are based on 8-hour weeks.
But before I get into those numbers, to answer the 15% worker payout:
My current leadership skills allow me to increase the yield of the miners 24.9%, so we're just taking some of the cream off. When I train Director 5, and drop a Mindlink in my head, the cream will be a little sweeter, and I can easily have that done before the miners are in hulks.

Some numbers:
We currently have a 300day skill plan for the miners, which take them to Exhumer5, IceHarv5, Racial Drone Specs 4, Drone Int5, Refining Eff4, T2 mining drones, some others, 15mil sp total. We left it at 300days so we would have 60 or so days worth of skill training time in case we left something out.

And we're not devoting all of our playing time to mining, we'll still be running missions, exploring, plex running, and doing all the things we do now, but you guys get 8 hours of our time a week to make dividends.

From my estimates, if we dont have to worry about paying for GTCs from the op proceeds(we get the 13bil goal), we're looking at minimum 3% return in the first month of ops (week 2-6), 3rd month(week 10-14) will see at least 7%, and month 5 (week 22-26) will see about 10%. Months 2 and 4 will see divs somewhere in he middle. And Month 6 shouldnt get a whole lot better for divs, cause we're pretty much topped out, and are training skills to add value to the miners.

I talked with JNA ingame, and he's pledged to invest 4bil, so with D23 and my investment money, we can start. When D23 drops by later we'll make the miners and get them started, 2 weeks after that we'll start our ops. I'll keep an eye out here for any more questions, concerns, or investments. And once the share creation vote is finished w/LURCH, I'll get with EGSE to post up some shares.

--Meph




Forget a lot of that training.
Need:
Exhumer IV (with required skills)
Mining V
Ice Mining V

You can now use tech II strips.

If you need to make ISk, ice mining pays out lower about 5-6M ISk per hr.

The best bet for refining is to partner with an industrialist with good standing who needs the minerals.

In fact if you want to have a contract with me, I can give you retreivers/covetors for free, while training for hulks.
I will then purchase all the ore you can mine at market rate. I have perfect refine and standings.

I need billions of ISK in minerals every month. You could easily earn the GTC working under contract and without the need to work excessive hours to pay off interest.

If you require a loan to purchase hulks, I could loan you the money to do that and you pay it off in allowing me to purchase ore at below market rate until loan is paid off.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.07.03 17:34:00 - [39]
 

The other beauty of my offer, is that when you get bored of mining for someone you can give up and move on to other things (albeit a lot richer).

Beleive me you will get bored!!

Ricdic's Hoe
Posted - 2008.07.03 17:52:00 - [40]
 

Why not just buy a few mining chars off forums?

Ricdic's Hoe
Posted - 2008.07.03 18:10:00 - [41]
 

with the cosmo offer it also means you bypass market transaction costs, refining costs/skill requirements, extra hauling, having to do isk wars trying to sell your products.

Arthor Dark
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.03 18:17:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Headmaster Lurch


Since we require approximately 12bil for 5 years of timecards (400m per 60 day GTC * 5 toons * 6 GTCs per toon)




You mean 1 year?

Mephie
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.07.03 18:23:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Arthor Dark
Originally by: Headmaster Lurch


Since we require approximately 12bil for 5 years of timecards (400m per 60 day GTC * 5 toons * 6 GTCs per toon)




You mean 1 year?


One year per toon, so, 5 years worth total.
--Meph

Arthor Dark
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.03 18:25:00 - [44]
 

So you take 13bil, and then run off for a year to do some empire hulk mining. And then, 1 year later you pay the amount plus profit back?

That's a LONG time in eve. With some luck, the investors have quit the game by then.

There are much better ways to invest the 13bil, and much better ways to spend the incredible amount of time you plan to spend a month to make ALOT more isk than what's being planned.

IMO, this is a very poor use of the isk and the time.

Zanphear
Amarr
The Booby Trap
Posted - 2008.07.03 19:36:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Zanphear on 03/07/2008 19:37:08
Originally by: Mephie

From my estimates, if we dont have to worry about paying for GTCs from the op proceeds(we get the 13bil goal), we're looking at minimum 3% return in the first month of ops (week 2-6), 3rd month(week 10-14) will see at least 7%, and month 5 (week 22-26) will see about 10%. Months 2 and 4 will see divs somewhere in he middle. And Month 6 shouldnt get a whole lot better for divs, cause we're pretty much topped out, and are training skills to add value to the miners.




Ok just to clarify here, and please give a plain answere, with this your essentially saying that you will make the following numbers with 8 hours a mining a week:


minimum 3% return in the first month of ops (week 2-6):

3% of 13 bill = 390 mill

390 / 85 = 4.588

4.588 * 100 = 458.8 mill the first month or 458.8 / 4 = 115 mill a week

That times two months would then make it 390x2 = 780 mill



3rd month(week 10-14) will see at least 7%

7% of 13 bill = 910 mill

910 mill / 85 = 10.7

10.7 x 100 = 1070 mill (1 bill 70 mill) the third month or 1070 / 4 = 267.5 mill a week

That times two months would then make it 910x2 = 1820 mill



month 5 (week 22-26) will see about 10%

and Im assuming this is going to be month 5 to month 12

10% of 13 bill = 1300 mill (1.3 bill)

1300 mill / 85 = 15.29

15.29 x 100 = 1529 mill (1 bill 529 mill) the fith month or 1529 / 4 = 382.25 mill a week

That times eight months would then make it 1300x5 = 6500 mill (6.5 bill)


So total dividends paid would end up beeing:

780 + 1820 + 6500 = 9100m (9.1 bill)

thats a total of 70 % return over the 12 months

70 / 12 = 5.83% total each month



If thouse numbers fits your estimate please say so, and Id like to know if you think you can handle thouse numbers with only 8 hours mining per week.

Thank you :)




Mephie
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.07.03 20:27:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Zanphear
Edited by: Zanphear on 03/07/2008 19:37:08
Ok just to clarify here, and please give a plain answere, with this your essentially saying that you will make the following numbers with 8 hours a mining a week:

...[cut for size]...

If thouse numbers fits your estimate please say so, and Id like to know if you think you can handle thouse numbers with only 8 hours mining per week.

Thank you :)




Mostly thats right, I was taking into account that D23 and I would get paid before we kicked out dividends, so cut the 85% out of your numbers and your pretty spot on.

I am making 3 assumptions:
1. We only mine normal veldspar, not the 5 or 10% kind. (conservative)
2. Miners arent using mining drones. (conservative)
3. Selling Trit at 3isk/unit

#3 was fair when D23 and I ran up alot these numbers over the last couple weeks, but it seems to be slumping. Could be someone found another Trit capper, or it's just being mined out, in which case we'll simply stick primarily to whatever ore has the best isk to m3 ratio. Once we can get into hulks (month3) we can diversify so we wont be hit as hard with market fluctuations.

--Meph


CornerStoner
Posted - 2008.07.04 02:09:00 - [47]
 

Maybe I missed something after reading this thread twice. I'm left wondering why 13Bil is needed for a low-labor mining IPO.
Most of the ISK will be going for GTCs, Skill Books, and Implants? Why do you propose to pay yourselves 15% after you purchase all these things for your toons, and virtually nothing for the corp/shareholders?

Mephie
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.07.04 02:39:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: CornerStoner
Maybe I missed something after reading this thread twice. I'm left wondering why 13Bil is needed for a low-labor mining IPO.
Most of the ISK will be going for GTCs, Skill Books, and Implants? Why do you propose to pay yourselves 15% after you purchase all these things for your toons, and virtually nothing for the corp/shareholders?


Well, you're half right, the 13bil does go towards buying GTCs, skills, Plants, ships.
We're paying ourselves 15% from what we mine, since we're having to sit there, shovel ore, haul, and refine.
The shareholders get dividends (which I posted projections) and at the maturity of the plan, the procedes from the sale of the miner characters will go to the shareholders. Since the sale of characters isnt a mining op, we're not taking 15% off the top.

--Meph

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.07.04 04:43:00 - [49]
 

Two things, firstly I was given a Navy Omen for my efforts with the audit. (Thought that should be said first). Secondly, I've been doing some back checking on on the api itself. I did not like some of the ambivalent data I got when doing the audit.

So, I've been auditing myself, Hawkblade in fact. My lesser known "other" account.

Now I use EMMA and Eve Meep and Sexy as well as working with raw api xml's and csv's (where available). And all of these compare to each other... so there's no bugs in any of the programs themselves. So, what troubles me is why one of the common standards we all believe in is not proving to be true.

1000 records or, if more than 1000 records in a week, one week's worth of records (no matter how many).

From my testing this no longer holds true.

Kruntologist
The Krovicants
Posted - 2008.07.04 05:34:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: cosmoray
The other beauty of my offer, is that when you get bored of mining for someone you can give up and move on to other things (albeit a lot richer).

Beleive me you will get bored!!


Why does the OP totally skip around this line of thought?

You reply before and after these 2 posts so obviously you read them.

Sorry, never, EVER, have I read a thread where the OP convienently skips over posts they don't like/aren't willing to answer ended up 'honest'..

Dallas23
Posted - 2008.07.04 06:47:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Kruntologist
Why does the OP totally skip around this line of thought?

You reply before and after these 2 posts so obviously you read them.

Sorry, never, EVER, have I read a thread where the OP conveniently skips over posts they don't like/aren't willing to answer ended up 'honest'..


Your question was answered by Mephie before the post Cosmosray made his offer.

"To answer the 13billion dollar question:
We don't want to burn out. I know what mining is like. And I know, mining to survive the early months will kill us. And that's not good for us or you."

We did not feel to need to comment on that offer as of yet. It is a very generous offer and sevrel people have offered to buy the minerals that we mine and we may contact those people about those offers once we were are started.

Now I am going to try and go back to sleep before I ramble on more.

D23

Maestro Del'Tirith
Space Exploration
Forward Motion Industries
Posted - 2008.07.04 14:59:00 - [52]
 

Where is the floating head to tell us that at least this is an interesting IPO, not like the boring trading ones? Very Happy

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.07.04 17:26:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 04/07/2008 17:27:07
Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith
Where is the floating head to tell us that at least this is an interesting IPO, not like the boring trading ones? Very Happy


Its not interesting, there will be no floating head show today. Please ask for a refund at the ticket counter.

Well I had a nice long post typed up about this IPO but as I was about to hit submit the 4 month old in my lap hit the reset fields button. So in summary, 13bilion is too much for a mining IPO.

SoleDeo Gloria
Minmatar
Mission Runners Incorporated
Posted - 2008.07.04 21:19:00 - [54]
 

The wisdom of our children ....

:-)

Kwint Sommer
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.04 23:09:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: SoleDeo Gloria
The wisdom of our children ....

:-)


Ha?

SoleDeo Gloria
Minmatar
Mission Runners Incorporated
Posted - 2008.07.04 23:44:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Well I had a nice long post typed up about this IPO but as I was about to hit submit the 4 month old in my lap hit the reset fields button. So in summary, 13bilion is too much for a mining IPO.


This ^

is what I was referring to

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.07.05 03:36:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: SoleDeo Gloria
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Well I had a nice long post typed up about this IPO but as I was about to hit submit the 4 month old in my lap hit the reset fields button. So in summary, 13bilion is too much for a mining IPO.


This ^

is what I was referring to


I guess there's a couple of ways I could take that. Anyways, the stuff I was going to say has already been said but basically my comment about 13 billion being too much is really what it comes down to. Why purchase 1 year's worth of GTC's per character? Why not purchase them as you go and as they are needed using some of the isk profits? There just seems to be a lot of extra isk in this IPO that doesn't need to be.

Sethi3
Posted - 2008.07.05 05:49:00 - [58]
 

Is it just me, or this IPO is going no where? Rolling Eyes

Dallas23
Posted - 2008.07.05 09:03:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155

Anyways, the stuff I was going to say has already been said but basically my comment about 13 billion being too much is really what it comes down to. Why purchase 1 year's worth of GTC's per character? Why not purchase them as you go and as they are needed using some of the isk profits? There just seems to be a lot of extra isk in this IPO that doesn't need to be.


That has been explained in the tread already but I will explain it again. The reason we asked for 13 bil is that we did not want to have to dedicate more than 8 hours a week and be able to pay dividends.

Instead of ramping up as the characters became more skilled and being able to to point we could pay a 10% dividends starting the 5th month. We would have dedicate some where around 20 hours a week to just stay afloat. Granted this would become easier as time moved on, but mining to have to survive and pay a respectable dividends would burn us out.

I hope that this clarifies for you why we asked for as much as we did. Jna has already said that he is in for 4 bill which with what Mephie and myself have put in is what is the minimum starting that we said was required and thus have created the characters and getting them the basic skills that they need to begin this project. Mephie and myself have also already provided sets of +3 implants for the characters.

Mephie
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.07.05 12:37:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Sethi3
Is it just me, or this IPO is going no where? Rolling Eyes


I can assure you, we're not going to fold yet.

--Mephie


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