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Securitas Protector
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.28 20:38:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Securitas Protector on 28/06/2008 20:42:35
To encourage the repeat use of the same ship, I would like to propose the concept of "familiarity." This is how it would work:
The more time/things you accomplish in a certain ship(not class, but an actual ship itself,) the more you become accustomed to it's little "ups and downs," it's quirks. So, the more flight time you log in a certain ship, the better you know that ship...and maybe you can coax a little more out of it than a totally new pilot could.
So, this would be small, but maybe eventually a 3-5% bonus in a few areas, depending on the ship and how much time you spend. So, maybe after a few hours, you get 1%, some more, 1.5%, always increasing, until you hit the maximum between 3 and 5%. Of course, to deter "farming" of this, there would be certain measures that would see if you were AFK or if you were really flying it. Of course, I don't know exactly how that would work, but I'm suggesting an idea, not ways to get around it. Basically, there would have to be "anti-farming" measures. Anyway, this would encourage you to stay with a certain ship more often, so you wouldn't be as likely to throw it away. Maybe you have a cherished battleship, and you would fly it more often because of innate bonuses...
Anyway, go ahead and give me some constructive criticism...just an idea I'm throwing out.

Nomad Storm
The Wandering Path
Posted - 2008.06.28 20:40:00 - [2]
 

I know just what you mean.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2008.06.28 20:43:00 - [3]
 

Yes, this is all too familiar...

Securitas Protector
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.28 20:43:00 - [4]
 

Sorry, accidentally pressed enter after the title instead of tab. Embarassed

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2008.06.28 21:31:00 - [5]
 

It will be abused and it would reward cowardly gankin noobs etc just to add notches in your ship's killboard-suggested familiarity counter etc...

It would also suggest that a player that plays 1-2 times a week for an hour or so is a-priori handicapped versus a similarly skilled player (SP-wise) that spends a lot of time logged in. Should the handicap be singificant enough (3-5% even in a single vital area could be enough) would force the former to lose interest.

There are many factors that rule your suggestion as "unfair" IMHO...

Lea Re
Dirty Labs
Infinite Improbability Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.28 21:37:00 - [6]
 

would encourage wow-style level grind


Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries
Posted - 2008.06.28 22:09:00 - [7]
 

Only if it increases cargo size and tractor beam range.

Securitas Protector
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.28 22:14:00 - [8]
 

*sighs* Everything you guys say is true, but...I guess I didn't really make myself clear enough. Embarassed

I sort of wanted the merits of the plan discussed, and then solutions brought for the problems, cause I already know what they are.

Maybe less? Maybe 2-3%?

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2008.06.28 22:15:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Securitas Protector
Anyway, go ahead and give me some constructive criticism...
Ur a dumbhed & U SUK!!!111

Downside of this idea is when CCP goes thru one of their numerous "nerf phases" and makes the ship you've spents months flying completely superfluous and you end up getting killed by a T1 frigate. Don't laugh, it would happen.

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2008.06.28 22:22:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Securitas Protector
*sighs* Everything you guys say is true, but...I guess I didn't really make myself clear enough. Embarassed

I sort of wanted the merits of the plan discussed, and then solutions brought for the problems, cause I already know what they are.

Maybe less? Maybe 2-3%?



Just focus-train the skills u need up a bit, buy a faction/dead-space module, use an "el-cheapo" hardwiring for 3% or spend something extra for that 5% one and value more the actual familiarity = experience you gain by flying a ship in a nearly permanent basis: really getting to know game mechanics revolving around your own playing style and ship's handling, range capabilities etc, improving small things like interface customization, hot-keys, window management etc will add more than 3-5% in RL performance.

No-one can ever accuse you of flying your ship too good, and that's why so many ppl get pwnd by younger characters all the time etc. Proper fitting + piloting skills >> Skill points, thus surely >>> Familiarity suggestion Wink

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2008.06.28 23:34:00 - [11]
 

This is not silent storm!

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.06.29 00:43:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Diomidis
Originally by: Securitas Protector
*sighs* Everything you guys say is true, but...I guess I didn't really make myself clear enough. Embarassed

I sort of wanted the merits of the plan discussed, and then solutions brought for the problems, cause I already know what they are.

Maybe less? Maybe 2-3%?



Just focus-train the skills u need up a bit, buy a faction/dead-space module, use an "el-cheapo" hardwiring for 3% or spend something extra for that 5% one and value more the actual familiarity = experience you gain by flying a ship in a nearly permanent basis: really getting to know game mechanics revolving around your own playing style and ship's handling, range capabilities etc, improving small things like interface customization, hot-keys, window management etc will add more than 3-5% in RL performance.

No-one can ever accuse you of flying your ship too good, and that's why so many ppl get pwnd by younger characters all the time etc. Proper fitting + piloting skills >> Skill points, thus surely >>> Familiarity suggestion Wink


This, to be honest.

Rigs and faction gear already give you this kind of customization - faction gear especially. Your "familiarity" with the ship is more meaningful if you make your own personal sacrifices to get that extra bonus.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2008.06.29 02:07:00 - [13]
 

Sweet! I'm off to MWD around asteroids while shooting them with lasers for hours on end. With the armor rep running. Or I could just mission run.

Even if you could stop the farming of this kind of "XP", the skill training system is there so you don't have to grind your skills at all.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2008.06.29 03:11:00 - [14]
 

Surely the bonus ot being very familiar with a ship is that you are better flying it...

I mean equal SP characters, indentical set-ups.... the one who wins is the one who is actually better with the ship in question.

Also, the most glaring problem with the system would be that what do you get 3% bonus to ? Something good ? I mean would a vaga get 3% speed ? Becuase that would be a real problem, even more greatly excentuating the differance between people who do nothing but kill things and people who are trying to stop them but mine/pve/trade the rest of the time. Think about it... Even if you have the same skills as the other guy, the same fitting, the same implants, and the other guys is still faster/does more damage than you.

I mean, yes it would rock hard to get a bonus from flying the same ship a lot, but there are people who are already far enough ahead in terms of isk invested and skills trained that giving them even more of an edge would suck for the rest of us.

Also theres the problem of ships that are just inherently more survivable. Wether or not certain ships (nanos and falcons specifcally) are overpowered ifa topic for another thread, but I think we call all agree that such ships certainly don't need to be MORE powerful. Especially since they are ships that are likely to live for a long time if flown well.

Its just my two cents really, and I know its not been hugely constructive, but its a generally accepted thing that if flown well, most ships are good, at least at what they do. Making things that are already good better because you have had a few ganks in them doesn't make anything better. All it would do would encourage further ganking, becuase people would be more hesitant to loose their favorite ships and so will just bring a few mates to make sure they don't.

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.06.29 09:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Lea Re
would encourage wow-style level grind




Is that really a downside? As it stands many people expend most of their time in Eve grinding for cash, but more play times does absolutely nothing for your SP levels. Is it unreasonble to gain some benefit other than money for all that time you spend on missions? Might make the painfully tedious process somewhat less so.

On the other hand, on certain ships that min max well in a particular area, 5% extra "something" could make a powerful ship just a little too powerful.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2008.06.29 10:13:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Surely the bonus ot being very familiar with a ship is that you are better flying it...

I mean equal SP characters, indentical set-ups.... the one who wins is the one who is actually better with the ship in question.



/thread

pandymen
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.06.29 18:27:00 - [17]
 

This is completely unnecessary. By specializing in a ship/flying it often you:

1. Physically are more aware of its nuances and know when to pulse mwd, turn off certain mods, do certain things.

2. Have been training longer for that ship, and you probably have more than a few extra skills trained up over someone who only flies the ship on occasion.

Due to #2 alone, you already have a 5%+ advantage in a ship you fly regularly over someone who is just getting into it for the first time. Due to #1, you don't need the bonuses anyway because you know how to fly it better, which is a large part of the battle.

Lea Re
Dirty Labs
Infinite Improbability Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.29 21:30:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Lea Re
would encourage wow-style level grind




Is that really a downside?


Yes. A month later you'll see websites advertising levelling up in eve.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.29 22:47:00 - [19]
 

The big 'win' for EVE is the real time nature of it. The fact that I can be running a market, doing diplomacy for an alliance, fueling a starbase, or ... well, doing whatever.

And still advancing my character.

This is good. This is what makes EVE a great game.

Now, you seem to be suggesting 'speccing up' of ships. I don't like that, because EVE does not need more grind, ever.

However i'd like to make a couple of counter suggestions:

Racial specialisation - in which skills trained up in a different size class of a particular races ships, remain valuable. E.g. you might have Amarr battleship give 1% more max cap to all ships requiring 'Amarr Frigate/Cruiser' to fly. That kind of thing.

The other that might work, is ship specialisation, and 'advancement'. Not your character getting better with a ship, but a ship itself getting better from being used (and surviving) in combat. You could maybe do this with 'crew' gaining skillpoints the more they're used. Or some other blag I guess. But the key point being, that whilst your ship can accumulate points of awesome, it can also explode and wipe out the whole lot.

Anything that can be macroed and gives an advantage, will be. So the easy way of preventing that happening, is basing it on PvP activity. Maybe every 'final blow', based on value of the ship destroyed (thus capping farming, such that if you _really_ want to grind by blowing up Ravens, you can, but it'll be expensive).

But producing a tradeable resource at the end, such that you can hire an experienced engineer for your battleship, who's served a tour of duty on some nutter's Zealot. For extra amusement value, you could randomize a bit what skills they pick up, based on what happens to the ship in combat - a nanoer might have an engineer who knows how to reduce MWD cap use. Or someone who's got lots of armour damage happening in their PvP encounters, might have a bit of rep amount/cap use.

*shrug*. The possibilities are endless, and provided you don't gain advantage from PvE, you short out the macroers immediately.

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2008.06.30 10:20:00 - [20]
 

EVE's PvP world suffers a bit due to huge experience differences backed up by major Skill Point differences between new and old players. Exploits, macroing, clever market domination etc also lead to few ppl or corporations owning HUGE amount of ISK.

The game has so many mechanics for boosting your performance above modules and skills: implants, chemical boosters, overheating etc.

It's nice to now that AT LEAST, when we talk about 2x similarly fitted ships, those should be performing equally well. Expensive dead-space mods, rigs and perhaps T2 rigs can really pimp some ships to levels a casual player cannot handle against. A system that would grand already rich players, backed up with a skilled advantage a way to buy or grind somehow even better performance would lead to extreme differences in performance, with few to no risks, unlike rigging and fitting expensive modules and/or implants.

I am totally against newly introduced mechanics that will broaden differences between new and old players and could lead to "I-win" button setups etc requiring no personal effort, manual flying etc.


Kalek Astroth
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
Posted - 2008.06.30 11:45:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lea Re
would encourage wow-style level grind




this

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.06.30 13:08:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lea Re
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Lea Re
would encourage wow-style level grind




Is that really a downside?


Yes. A month later you'll see websites advertising levelling up in eve.



I fail to see how this is appreciably different from the websites I get Eve-Mail spam about selling ISK, implants and items but that's not really important.

While I think the system could pretty handily lead down dark paths thanks to the min/max gamestyle of Eve, having a positive reinforcement loop that makes you want to continue doing silly grinds is NEVER a bad idea in an MMO. Eve's PVE play is pretty terrible and the ONLY reason you have for doing it now is to get cash. But even cash is a temporary asset that is expended for other temporary assets. The only semi-permenant thing about Eve is your SP but even those can go away if you forget to update your clone.

AnKahn
Caldari
The Blood Wraiths
Posted - 2008.06.30 14:36:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: AnKahn on 30/06/2008 14:40:44
Re-read James Lyrus's post.

The idea that a ships's crew could increase in exp is very cool. It is not WoW style exp grinding, as long as you eliminate gain of exp from PvE. I think EvE is able to detect the difference between the two, or you could simply just not gain "crew" exp while in deadspace. The crew could only gain exp while agressing another players ship. Very simple really.

What would that do? 1) It would favor the careful (read poor) PvPer and disfavor the ATM ISK "who cares" suicide PvPers. 2) It would make a lot of sense from a role playing "immersion" stand point. 3) It would make losing a ship hurt more for the right reasons.

Bottom line, when the ships explode so do the crews, and it would be cool to honor that somehow.

I do agree it would favor the more survivable ships, tho.

Edit-typos

AnKahn
Caldari
The Blood Wraiths
Posted - 2008.06.30 14:49:00 - [24]
 

On further thought, I agree it would favor the ganker-style players over the carebear style players.

But EvE has always been more about PvP, or at least should be.

This is coming from someone who is more of a carebear. PvPing gets expensive and maybe there should be more reward for excellance in that area. Saying you "farm" t2 modules from other players is not the most profitable approach to your time playing EvE as the carebears are the richest players in the game,IMHO. I'm not rich because I just don't play enough, if you want to call carebearing "playing".Very Happy

Trevor Warps
Posted - 2008.06.30 15:38:00 - [25]
 

No.

MotoMissles
Rim Collection RC
Kraftwerk.
Posted - 2008.06.30 15:59:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Securitas Protector
Edited by: Securitas Protector on 28/06/2008 20:42:35
To encourage the repeat use of the same ship, I would like to propose the concept of "familiarity." This is how it would work:
The more time/things you accomplish in a certain ship(not class, but an actual ship itself,) the more you become accustomed to it's little "ups and downs," it's quirks. So, the more flight time you log in a certain ship, the better you know that ship...and maybe you can coax a little more out of it than a totally new pilot could.
So, this would be small, but maybe eventually a 3-5% bonus in a few areas, depending on the ship and how much time you spend. So, maybe after a few hours, you get 1%, some more, 1.5%, always increasing, until you hit the maximum between 3 and 5%. Of course, to deter "farming" of this, there would be certain measures that would see if you were AFK or if you were really flying it. Of course, I don't know exactly how that would work, but I'm suggesting an idea, not ways to get around it. Basically, there would have to be "anti-farming" measures. Anyway, this would encourage you to stay with a certain ship more often, so you wouldn't be as likely to throw it away. Maybe you have a cherished battleship, and you would fly it more often because of innate bonuses...
Anyway, go ahead and give me some constructive criticism...just an idea I'm throwing out.


*MotoMissles wishes he could backhand Securitas Prospector across the face.

EvE is not WoW. Let's keep it that way, mmkay?

cyver agamon
Posted - 2008.06.30 18:13:00 - [27]
 

Here's my proposed "Familiarity" system.

Ship Familiarity.
In order to GAIN Familiarity with your ship, you must never change the basic setup.
(I.e. if you are using 7x T2 Rails in a Rohk, You always have them there.)
If you switch the fitting, all Fam. is lost.
Switching modules to similar ones, however, does not change this.
(Changing a Med Shield booster to a Faction Med shield booster does not wipe your Familiarity.)

Familiarity is gained by:
Destroying ships, Scoring wrecking hits, Warp scrambling targets, Using the ship for long periods in combat, using manual maneuvers.

Every time you do one of those things above. There is a 10% Chance to gain ONE FAMILIARITY POINT.
100 points grants a 1% Bonus to your ships's base statistics. (Turret Tracking speed, Missile Explosion Velocity, Powergrid, CPU, Targetting range, Scan Resolution, Velocity, Agility, Capacitor ammount, Capacitor recharge time.)

The total points you may have is 500 Points, which would result in a 5% Bonus to the above statistics.\
However, when you reach 250 points, the chance of gaining a Familiarity point is halved to 5%, making it a very long term investment for a small bonus.

Changing ships does not affect your Familiarity, but changing th modules on a ship will wipe it all. Not using a ship, however, will cause a decay in Familiarity. For Every hour ingame, a ship you are -NOT- piloting will lose 2 familiarity. This is doubled for ships over 250 Fam. and Increases to 5points lost per hour at 500 Fam.


Nekopyat
Posted - 2008.06.30 19:14:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Derek Sigres
having a positive reinforcement loop that makes you want to continue doing silly grinds is NEVER a bad idea in an MMO.


Actually this describes the biggest flaw in MMOs, a design legacy from the days of MUD1 that designers never managed to get around.

Grind and the resulting farmers are a design flaw, not a feature. A flaw filling a 'we don't know what else to put here' void to keep people playing.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2008.06.30 19:17:00 - [29]
 

it's a great idea, it really is.

unfortunately, it could never be implemented in a way so that it wouldn't be abused

Securitas Protector
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.30 20:13:00 - [30]
 

Although everyone wants to slap me, I would like to point out that I have never played WoW. At a friends house, on another computer, never...

Okay, bad idea...


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