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blankseplocked No killrights when someone salvages my wreck = reward with no risk.
 
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.07.08 05:09:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Nathanial Victor

If you think about it, ppl that nija salavge in high sec are getting reward with 0 risk.


I can assure you that the ninja-salvagers are taking a much greater risk than you are, are easily putting in 10x the effort for ultimately lower rewards.

So please, don't try and claim that highground in your internet arguments.

Calacheng
Caldari
Posted - 2008.07.08 12:34:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina

I can assure you that the ninja-salvagers are taking a much greater risk than you are, are easily putting in 10x the effort for ultimately lower rewards.

So please, don't try and claim that highground in your internet arguments.


Prove it or stop lying.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.07.08 13:22:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 08/07/2008 13:26:16
Originally by: Calacheng
Salvage does not just appear from nowhere. It is extracted from the wreck which is owned by the player who destroyed the ship and so it is stealing.
…except, of course, that the wreck isn't owned by the killer – only its cargo can is.
Quote:
These ninja salvaging posts prove it.
No they don't. These posts are made by players – you're making a claim about the (in)ability of the CCP programmers. So, again: prove it.

If anything, the history of the game suggests the exact opposite: it used to be the case that you couldn't salvage a wreck unless you were the one who created it, but they deliberately changed it so that anyone could, and they haven't changed it back since.
Quote:
If there was nothing wrong with it there wouldn't be any arguing or disagreement about it.
We're arguing about it because some players refuse to accept an intended mechanism within the game.
Quote:
Also if it were inline with other wreck related ownership like not being able to use tractor beams on wrecks that belong to someone else or getting flagged by stealing loot then it would work correctly.
Correct according to whom? According to CCP it is working correctly right now. If you look around, you might also notice that there are plenty of things you cannot tractor, but are still allowed to take things from, so ”tractorability“ doesn't really prove anything in either direction.
Quote:
Again repeating like an old broken record player. Laughing
It seems to be the only way to get the point across. I will keep repeating them until you provide any kind of proof to the opposite (as opposed to conjecture and personal opinion).

And just to cut your counter-argument short: scanning mission runners down and entering the mission area means you risk coming across mission NPCs, which in turn means a risk of being shot at. No-one is arguing that this risk is all that huge, but it's still there, and given the fragility of most salvaging ships, it's about on par with the risks the mission runner face.
Originally by: Calacheng
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
I can assure you that the ninja-salvagers are taking a much greater risk than you are, are easily putting in 10x the effort for ultimately lower rewards.

So please, don't try and claim that highground in your internet arguments.
Prove it or stop lying.
Personally, I wouldn't say higher risk – they're about on par, but the mission runner is in complete control of those risks whereas the salvager isn't.

In terms of effort, scanning someone down requires some manual labour and a modicum of sleuthing; accepting a mission does not. Killing the wrecks might be considered an effort, if it wasn't for the fact that it's a simple F1-F8 affair.

In terms of rewards, mission runners get (guaranteed) mission rewards, (guaranteed) bounties, (guaranteed) LP, (guaranteed) standings increase, (random) loot and (random) salvage. The salvager only gets (random) salvage. And again, the mission runner is in complete control of these rewards – he can even decide whether or not the salvager gets access to that random salvage.

Of course, if you actually run missions (and do it half-way competently), you already know this…

obo outtatune
Posted - 2008.07.08 14:41:00 - [154]
 

While we're on this subject,...

Guy comes into my mission and is looting my salvage right? But he can't help himself and pockets the loot offa one of the wrecks and goes flashy to me.

Now I keeel heeem!! \o/

Can I then take from his wreck or would he (and his gang that's flying about) then have Kill Rights on me? Shocked

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2008.07.08 15:36:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Calacheng
I bet that if CCP fixes this thing then ninja salvagers start to whine on the forum about not being able to salvage completely without risk anymore.

I can't wait for this to be fixed. No more having to hump 40km to a full wreak to get aggro. Now all I would have to do is hump the 1km to salvage an empty wreak to get aggro.

Yeah CCP, fix this injustice for the mission runners.

Calacheng
Caldari
Posted - 2008.07.09 01:39:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Calacheng on 09/07/2008 01:40:05
Originally by: Amastat
It's impossible to change another's opinions or stance on a issue, or even get at least one rational, logical, and meaningful statement or admittance, when they are so addicted to being on easy street.
---^^--- That describes you Tippia ---^^---

Salvage rights were screwed and since it looks that CCP don't want to fix it, they say it works but still it is broken. CCP has failed in logic many times.


Dotard
Minmatar
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.07.09 03:00:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Dotard on 09/07/2008 03:01:52
oops

Dotard
Minmatar
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.07.09 03:02:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: obo outtatune
While we're on this subject,...

Guy comes into my mission and is looting my salvage right? But he can't help himself and pockets the loot offa one of the wrecks and goes flashy to me.

Now I keeel heeem!! \o/

Can I then take from his wreck or would he (and his gang that's flying about) then have Kill Rights on me?
Shocked



Nope. Only the aggro timer that started once you shot him gives him 15 minutes to come back and shoot you. You can loot his wreck without flagging his corp/gang mates.


Macareus
Posted - 2008.07.09 03:52:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Amastat
Originally by: Miffed Kit
I have no idea why you can't tractor it, TBH.


It's because CCP contradict themselves and royally suck at justifying the crap that comes out of their mouth, thats why. They need to make tractor beams tractor the stuff, or they need to make salvage a criminal act.


AMEN! One person with logic and reason on these forums.

Originally by: Quelque Chose
Speculation: to cut down on db queries the game doesn't distinguish between empty wreck cans and those that have contents in this case. Therefore, all wrecks are considered to have cans for purposes of tractoring and thus nobody but the killer and his corpmates can tractor the wreck.


Somehow I wouldn't be surprised...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.07.09 12:46:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Calacheng
Salvage rights were screwed
Prove it.
Quote:
it looks that CCP don't want to fix it
Prove it.
Quote:
but still it is broken
Assumption based on the two previous — still unproven — statements.

I have no problem changing my mind – I have no vested interest in whatever way it goes — but you need to prove why you're right to convince me. Since you offer nothing but personal opinion and unfounded claims, you still have a long way to go.

mods hot2
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.09 12:57:00 - [161]
 

u shud salvage ur wrecks quicker before they scan out ur mission Wink

Calacheng
Caldari
Posted - 2008.07.10 01:43:00 - [162]
 

Here is a link to a salvage rights post that CSM has been asked to review and discuss.

CSM Salvage post link

Please read it all and you will see that there are problems with the current CCP ruling about salvage rights.

Khrillian
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
Hav0k.
Posted - 2008.07.10 02:40:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Calacheng
Originally by: Rawr Cristina

I can assure you that the ninja-salvagers are taking a much greater risk than you are, are easily putting in 10x the effort for ultimately lower rewards.

So please, don't try and claim that highground in your internet arguments.


Prove it or stop lying.



Mission runners take 0 risk, why should the people 'stealing' from have to bear any more than 0 risk? After all, the mission runner still gets the majority of the reward per time.

Also Tippia why do you think, as others have pointed out, in CCP's infinite wisdom, they say you can't tractor someone else's wreck because IT ISN'T YOURS? They are saying at the same time that 1) the wreck is yours (since others can't tractor it) 2) the wreck isn't yours (since others can salvage with no flag).

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.07.10 02:48:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Khrillian
Also Tippia why do you think, as others have pointed out, in CCP's infinite wisdom, they say you can't tractor someone else's wreck because IT ISN'T YOURS?
It contains a can that isn't mine, therefore I can't tractor it.
Originally by: Calacheng
Here is a link to a salvage rights post that CSM has been asked to review and discuss.

CSM Salvage post link

Please read it all and you will see that there are problems with the current CCP ruling about salvage rights.
Could you be a bit more precise?

Khrillian
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
Hav0k.
Posted - 2008.07.10 02:51:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Khrillian
Also Tippia why do you think, as others have pointed out, in CCP's infinite wisdom, they say you can't tractor someone else's wreck because IT ISN'T YOURS?
It contains a can that isn't mine, therefore I can't tractor it.


Nono like in the tooltip/popup when you attempt to tractor it, it says the wreck isn't yours, not the can in the wreck.

obo outtatune
Posted - 2008.07.10 02:53:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Dotard
Originally by: obo outtatune
While we're on this subject,...

Guy comes into my mission and is looting my salvage right? But he can't help himself and pockets the loot offa one of the wrecks and goes flashy to me.

Now I keeel heeem!! \o/

Can I then take from his wreck or would he (and his gang that's flying about) then have Kill Rights on me?
Shocked



Nope. Only the aggro timer that started once you shot him gives him 15 minutes to come back and shoot you. You can loot his wreck without flagging his corp/gang mates.




Now whoa whoa whoa wait,..

This fella took stole from MY wreck, went flashy and I shot at him for it. Concordes' given me this oppty to get him back because he stole from me.

Are you saying that if I take my just revenge that the authorities have afforded me, then they'll also give this low-down rotten wreck pilferer the right to blow up my fine ship?!? Shocked

Lurana Lay
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.10 02:54:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Lurana Lay on 10/07/2008 02:55:42
Get it through your head once and for all:
CCP despises PVE and PVE'ers (Miners as well as Missioners), they adore the gank, the grief, the scam, the steal, the bait, the blob, and the exploit.
Learn this and everything is easier to understand.

Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
Posted - 2008.07.10 02:59:00 - [168]
 

In this thread: two of the most spoiled- rotten constituencies within the Eve playerbase (L4 mission strumpets and two- bit high sec crooks) have a cat fight.


Compromise solution: combine a significant (read: somewhat painful) decrease in the overall value of L4 missions (lower payouts, smaller loot drops) with mission- runner ownership of salvage. Make this nonsense really worth fighting over. Twisted Evil

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.07.10 05:05:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Quelque Chose
In this thread: two of the most spoiled- rotten constituencies within the Eve playerbase (L4 mission strumpets and two- bit high sec crooks) have a cat fight.


Compromise solution: combine a significant (read: somewhat painful) decrease in the overall value of L4 missions (lower payouts, smaller loot drops) with mission- runner ownership of salvage. Make this nonsense really worth fighting over. Twisted Evil


Oh you're a bad man!

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.07.10 05:06:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: obo outtatune
Originally by: Dotard
Originally by: obo outtatune
While we're on this subject,...

Guy comes into my mission and is looting my salvage right? But he can't help himself and pockets the loot offa one of the wrecks and goes flashy to me.

Now I keeel heeem!! \o/

Can I then take from his wreck or would he (and his gang that's flying about) then have Kill Rights on me?
Shocked



Nope. Only the aggro timer that started once you shot him gives him 15 minutes to come back and shoot you. You can loot his wreck without flagging his corp/gang mates.




Now whoa whoa whoa wait,..

This fella took stole from MY wreck, went flashy and I shot at him for it. Concordes' given me this oppty to get him back because he stole from me.

Are you saying that if I take my just revenge that the authorities have afforded me, then they'll also give this low-down rotten wreck pilferer the right to blow up my fine ship?!? Shocked


Yes. No do you see why salvage flagging might not be a brilliant idea?

Calacheng
Caldari
Posted - 2008.07.10 19:21:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Calacheng
Here is a link to a salvage rights post that CSM has been asked to review and discuss.

CSM Salvage post link

Please read it all and you will see that there are problems with the current CCP ruling about salvage rights.
Could you be a bit more precise?

That comment is obvious trolling.

Woodwraith
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.07.10 22:43:00 - [172]
 

Salvage, by definition, belongs to the person that salvages it.
see how that works out?
the salvager owns the salvage

and anyone claiming they are at more risk in high sec mission running that the guy in the covops frigate that just scanned them down to get the wrecks, srsly,
your both carebearing, only one of you is screaming about it

Quote:
edit: thanks for the clarification. This thread is now about discussing the ridiculous policy that wreck and their salvage is public domain while the loot inside of them is not.


if you feel as OP does, say this over and over to yourself until you believe it wholeheartedly:

The salvage is not mine until I salvage it.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.07.10 23:35:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Calacheng
That comment is obvious trolling.
No, it's an honest question. I had a quick read-through and saw the standard back-and-forth, with no new arguments being brought forward on either side. If there was something special I missed, please point it out.

Aphoticus
Posted - 2008.07.10 23:49:00 - [174]
 

My oppinion probably doesn't matter much as I am just a 'Question Mark," but here it goes.

I have only been playing EvE about two months now and have been reading forums, taking advice, and not really participating in these debates. However, I have found one glaringly missing element.

There's absolutely no role-play in the debate. What I mean by that is that everything is based on how one feels, statistics, comparisons, flame, what ever, but no real concideration to the big role-play picture.

...I'm just wasting my breath, carry on.

Calacheng
Caldari
Posted - 2008.07.11 04:49:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Calacheng
That comment is obvious trolling.
No, it's an honest question. I had a quick read-through and saw the standard back-and-forth, with no new arguments being brought forward on either side. If there was something special I missed, please point it out.

Ok. Here is the reply from the CSM salvage discussion thread that summarizes almost all points favoring the salvage flagging. The special thing in that whole thread is that CSM have now acknowledged that there might be contradictions and inconsistencies and they cause problems in the current CCP ruling of the salvage stealing mini-profession.
Originally by: Caileb Memorax

I understand that those of you that ARE Ninja Salvagers want it to be a non-aggro-able offense but the argument that the wrecks don't belong to anyone is kind of shakey. Yes I know that CCP says that they aren't anyones property on the forums, but have you tired to activate a tractor beam on a wreck that wasn't "yours"? It gives you a very clear message that you can't because the wreck doesn't belong to you. The only reason that CCP set the rules the way they did is because they wanted to produce another profession for those that don't want to get involved in combat. But sometimes you have to fight for what you want. What is so terrible about getting flagged if you salvage someone elses wreck? Because you're in a crappy little ship that doesn't have the guns to stand up in a fight? Well then to use that same logic, why should a mission runner have to mount salvagers on their combat ship?

I agree that some mission runners don't want their wrecks, but some of us DO. And we've got the skills to actually KILL the ship that produced the wreck AND the skills to salvage them so don't we deserve SOME consideration on this issue? Put an counter on the wreck and if its not salvaged within a certain amount of time then it becomes open for claims. Or perhaps something on the character sheet that you can select that states that you intend to salvage any wreck that you produce and it is marked as belonging to you, look at a wreck sometime and you'll notice that it IS marked with the owner's corp abbreviation so this mechanism wouldn't be too much of a stretch to accomplish.

I think that this wouldn't be an issue if there were more "Exploration Sites" that people who WANT to scout for places to salvage were seeded into system. This would give them a place to go to use their skills. Maybe have an option where once a mission is turned in then the mission site BECOMES a Salvaging Exploration Site.

Anyways, salvaging isn't a complete profession on it's own. It's talked about as a "mini" profession. My impression of this is that it's something that you do along side a real profession like say... mission running or belt ratting.

I run level 4 missions, I'm a High Sec Mission Runner by profession and I can't tell you how upsetting it is when someone shows up in your mission and starts salvaging stuff out from under you while you're still fighting. The mission running isn't enough by itself to get ahead in this game, you NEED the salvage to build rigs or yourself or to sell so you can buy other stuff to build other ships.

I don't see why "I" as the mission runner shouldn't have SOME recourse where it come to legally protecting MY interests. It's not like I'm asking that Concord jumps in and kills a Ninja Looter. I'll do that myself. As to why we don't have a friend come behind us and salvage stuff for us, well, why don't you ninjas have a friend run a mission and you salvage for them? Hey, what's fair is fair right? Oh, that's right, you don't want to have to share.

Sorry about the rant here, I just feel very strongly about this. Because so many players out there are crappy people and use subterfuge to get fights instead of going down to Low Sec or 0.0 and getting into fight.


Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
Posted - 2008.07.11 05:02:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Calacheng
I run level 4 missions, I'm a High Sec Mission Runner by profession and I can't tell you how upsetting it is when someone shows up in your mission and starts salvaging stuff out from under you while you're still fighting. The mission running isn't enough by itself to get ahead in this game, you NEED the salvage to build rigs or yourself or to sell so you can buy other stuff to build other ships.



Laughing

"But MO-OOOOOM! I NEEEEEED it!"

That was real funny, thanks for posting it. Cool

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.07.11 13:36:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Calacheng
Ok. Here is the reply from the CSM salvage discussion thread that summarizes almost all points favoring the salvage flagging. The special thing in that whole thread is that CSM have now acknowledged that there might be contradictions and inconsistencies and they cause problems in the current CCP ruling of the salvage stealing mini-profession.
Thank you, and fair enough. I still don't see anything new about it. Yes, the CSM have noticed it – so what? It would be hard not to notice it given the threadnoughts the topic produces.

I also completely disagree with this part:
Originally by: Caileb Memorax
The mission running isn't enough by itself to get ahead in this game, you NEED the salvage to build rigs or yourself or to sell so you can buy other stuff to build other ships.
Mission running is one of the very few things in ≡v≡ with guarateed returns. Not "oh, I can lower my profits a bit and still come out ahead"; not "if I research this, I can undercut everyone" – guaranteed. FFA-salvaging removes some (but very very little) of that, and that is a good thing. It brings missions that little bit closer to the rest of the game.

I'd argue that mission running could use far more of these uncertainties and risks. If FFA-salvaging is removed, then mission rewards and bonuses (and possibly LP, although that's a special case) need to go as well.

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.11 13:50:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Nathanial Victor

If you think about it, ppl that nija salavge in high sec are getting reward with 0 risk.


I can assure you that the ninja-salvagers are taking a much greater risk than you are
Wow, they're fling 200M+ battleships into places where they might lose them to lag? Huh. I thought they were using disposable frigates and destroyers.

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
are easily putting in 10x the effort for ultimately lower rewards.
Yes, minutes spent probing, with induced grief as the only reward. I guess that's true.

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
So please, don't try and claim that highground in your internet arguments.
Irony.

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.11 13:51:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: v1nipper
u shud salvage ur wrecks quicker before they scan out ur mission Wink
This is completely impractical. So stop bringing it up.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.07.11 14:16:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Xaen
Wow, they're fling 200M+ battleships into places where they might lose them to lag?
You don't lose things to lag – you lose them to enemies. If you lose a ship to the enemies you encounter in an L4 mission, you're doing something wrong.

As for salvaging as you go, no, it's not completely unpractical unless you're low on skills or your fitting sucks. It's also a balance act: do you want to be fast, or do you want to be thorough?


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