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blankseplocked No killrights when someone salvages my wreck = reward with no risk.
 
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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:15:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Quelque Chose
Speculation: to cut down on db queries the game doesn't distinguish between empty wreck cans and those that have contents in this case.
Possibly. Still, the wreck has a can in it – albeit empty – and that can belongs to whoever killed the ship.

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:20:00 - [32]
 

Here's what actually happened:

Initially salvage was the property of the person that created it. But you had to loot the wreck before it could be salvaged. And a lot of newbie salvagers were getting pwnt when they got flagged for salvaging. Additionally, since a lot of people didn't care about the loot, and only wanted the salvage, they made it stop flagging. Ignoring the effect this had on wrecks within missions. Then to cover their halfassed attempt to make salvaging as a profession viable, they simply declared that wrecks weren't anyone's property.

In short, the game mechanic is halfassed and broken. The only way to be viable in the salvager profession is to be a professional jerk and invade the missions of others and steal out from under their noses.

To work around it, don't mission in Motsu if you plan to salvage.

The best way to fix this would be to revert ownership of the wrecks to the mission runners, make wrecks in belts FFA, and make it so that mission runners could sell bookmarks to completed missions only if they salvaged no wrecks. But no, they'd rather spend time on making female corpses, and let avatars walk around in stations than fix things that are broken.

Cpt Hound
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:22:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Nathanial Victor
Originally by: Tyrantus
Your a n00b to trolling Nathaniel. You should have saved the 'omg CCP are a bunch of losers and can't progran a c-64 game' post for much later in the thread. Wink


Originally by: Cpt Hound

Awww. Look people, there is someone with no clue what so ever.


So i'm going to guess the 1st one has a ninja salvage alt and the 2nd actually is one. Hey! Maybe the same person?

Quit changing the subject to me. I doubt it was actually a programming issue but there is 2 possiblities, its an intended mechanic or a unexpected 'feature'

Isn't risk vs reward kinda the foundation of our economy in this game? Oh right, i dont have a clue Rolling Eyes


Look people, again does the same person have no clue. No this is neither my missioning or salvaging alt, because I don't mission or salvage. Like you did before and do now is jumping to conclusion without even stoping and thinking why it is like it is in the first place.

Amastat
Caldari
Blue Ring Defence
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:23:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Amastat on 27/06/2008 17:27:11
Edited by: Amastat on 27/06/2008 17:24:09
Edited by: Amastat on 27/06/2008 17:23:52
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Quelque Chose
Speculation: to cut down on db queries the game doesn't distinguish between empty wreck cans and those that have contents in this case.
Possibly. Still, the wreck has a can in it – albeit empty – and that can belongs to whoever killed the ship.


ARGGHHHH - your all killing me.

The can, inside the wreck? Wouldn't that make it salvage?

KILL THIS THREAD PLEASE, SOMEONE!!! ><

Someone needs to buy CCP a pocket dictionary and hire them a personal professor in vocabulary to straighten them out. The contradiction on this topic is just too much to bare.

If you bring up the worthless "but in real life" card - if there is a wrecked ship, and you salvage the parts, you can salvage teh cargo - and all of its contents - just as easily. ITS ALL THE SAME.

Just like the tractor beam contradiction, this is yet another one. They need to make it so that the loot is treated the same as salvage, or have salvage treated in the same manner as the loot - until then, this is a giant throbbing tumor of contradiction CCP has made for themselves.

Tyrantus
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:26:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Xaen
In short, the game mechanic is halfassed and broken. The only way to be viable in the salvager profession is to be a professional jerk and invade the missions of others and steal out from under their noses.
If your a professional salvage runner then I'm going to assume you mean that you hire your services out to mission runners in the npc corp or a different player corp to make a buck and save them much time finishing missions. All you need to do is have whoever the mission runner your working for set you to +10 standings and you will get full tractor and loot rights.

Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:32:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Quelque Chose on 27/06/2008 17:32:25
Originally by: Amastat


ARGGHHHH - your all killing me.

The can, inside the wreck? Wouldn't that make it salvage?


Nope. It's loot, not salvage. Very Happy Razz

Quote:
They need to make it so that the loot is treated the same as salvage, or have salvage treated in the same manner as the loot - until then, this is a giant throbbing tumor of contradiction CCP has made for themselves.


That's only a problem if you try to approach it from a real- world legal perspective without acknowledging that it is, in fact, a game.


*edit* It's fun watching your neck veins bulge out about it though. Laughing

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:36:00 - [37]
 

Please, cry some more. Your tears are so juicy and delicious. The only '0 risk ISK' I see here is mission running. the pirates who salvage wrecks have infinitely more balls than you could ever hope for, and to be honest, if all you do is run missions, why not just go and play a single player game. Then you don't have to deal with all these 'people' and stuff reducing your pixel profit margins. In fact, I have a wonderful game for you to play that would probably be more in line with your playing style: HERE.

Amastat
Caldari
Blue Ring Defence
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:37:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Amastat on 27/06/2008 17:41:45
Edited by: Amastat on 27/06/2008 17:41:21
Originally by: Quelque Chose
Edited by: Quelque Chose on 27/06/2008 17:32:25
Originally by: Amastat


ARGGHHHH - your all killing me.

The can, inside the wreck? Wouldn't that make it salvage?


Nope. It's loot, not salvage. Very Happy Razz

Quote:
They need to make it so that the loot is treated the same as salvage, or have salvage treated in the same manner as the loot - until then, this is a giant throbbing tumor of contradiction CCP has made for themselves.


That's only a problem if you try to approach it from a real- world legal perspective without acknowledging that it is, in fact, a game.


*edit* It's fun watching your neck veins bulge out about it though. Laughing


In CCP Dev-land it is, but technically in the real use of the word, and in the real world - no, it isn't. So, CCP has rocks in their heads if they think the current mechanics are good for "realism", because its not. This is really nothing more than a cover up - they need to go the whole way, or undo things - in whoever favor, it doesn't matter. Until a change is made, they contradict themselves.

If what you say about treating it as a game, is the way it is - then CCP's claims, and everyone elses claims for the mechanic as being a mechnic of creating "realism" is completely forfiet then. Coming from CCP's mouth (if it did, someone said it did), that just creates another contradiction, yet again. This also would suggest that CCP is biased and has made a favortist decision, over a balanced decision.

Saying that this is a decision for and of the game, not an act of creating realism, removes this protective shroud from it all. Either way - not fooling me, and its useless to debate over; my opinions are unchanged - CCP can't make up their minds, or this surface of confused contradiction and refusal to speak on the matter is a cover up for other intentions :P

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:40:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Amastat
[Someone needs to buy CCP a pocket dictionary and hire them a personal professor in vocabulary to straighten them out. The contradiction on this topic is just too much to bare.
I'll do you one better:
Originally by: Oxford English Dictionary
salvage, n

1. A payment or compensation to which those persons are entitled who have by their voluntary efforts saved a ship or its cargo from impending peril or rescued it from actual loss; e.g. from shipwreck or from capture by the enemy (called respectively civil and military or hostile salvage).

2. a. The action of saving a ship or its cargo from wreck, capture, etc. Phr. to make salvage of.

b. gen. The saving of property from fire or other danger. (Cf. salvage corps in 4.) Also fig.

c. In wartime, esp. the war of 1939-45: the saving and collection of waste material, esp. paper, for recycling; also transf., those who organized and carried out this collection.

3. a. Property salved or saved.

b. transf. and fig.

c. Waste material, esp. paper, suitable for recycling. (Cf. sense 2c above.)
Note in particular 2c and 3c. Jetsam and flotsam (cargo) still belongs to the owner.

Tyrantus
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:44:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Amastat
In CCP Dev-land it is, but technically in the real use of the word, and in the real world - no, it isn't. So, CCP has rocks in their heads if they think the current mechanics are good for "realism", because its not. This is really nothing more than a cover up - they need to go the whole way, or undo things - in whoever favor, it doesn't matter. Until a change is made, they contradict themselves.


Well its a good thing CCP cares more about game mechanics than realism. If a mission runner/ratter wants you to loot and salvage for him then the tools are there to make that job easy by granting you full rights to it. On the other hand if your a scavenger and picking off other people wrecks then you have to work a bit harder as its not a completely sanctioned act so you only get salvage rights and not tractor or loot. So whats broken again? Neutral

Amastat
Caldari
Blue Ring Defence
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:44:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Amastat
[Someone needs to buy CCP a pocket dictionary and hire them a personal professor in vocabulary to straighten them out. The contradiction on this topic is just too much to bare.
I'll do you one better:
Originally by: Oxford English Dictionary
salvage, n

1. A payment or compensation to which those persons are entitled who have by their voluntary efforts saved a ship or its cargo from impending peril or rescued it from actual loss; e.g. from shipwreck or from capture by the enemy (called respectively civil and military or hostile salvage).

2. a. The action of saving a ship or its cargo from wreck, capture, etc. Phr. to make salvage of.

b. gen. The saving of property from fire or other danger. (Cf. salvage corps in 4.) Also fig.

c. In wartime, esp. the war of 1939-45: the saving and collection of waste material, esp. paper, for recycling; also transf., those who organized and carried out this collection.

3. a. Property salved or saved.

b. transf. and fig.

c. Waste material, esp. paper, suitable for recycling. (Cf. sense 2c above.)
Note in particular 2c and 3c. Jetsam and flotsam (cargo) still belongs to the owner.


You mean to the salvager - not to the one responsible for destroying the ship. Whoever is collecting, recycling - basically another word for the salvager. This is exactly what I'm trying to say.

They need to make cans to be treated the same as salvage, otherwise CCP contradicts themselves - and this is why they need a dictonary xD

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:47:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Amastat
You mean to the salvager - not to the one responsible for destroying the ship.
No, I mean the owner – the person who has a legal claim on the cargo.

Technically, though, that would mean the rat you just killed – but he's no longer around to claim it… Razz

Amastat
Caldari
Blue Ring Defence
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:50:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Tyrantus
Originally by: Amastat
In CCP Dev-land it is, but technically in the real use of the word, and in the real world - no, it isn't. So, CCP has rocks in their heads if they think the current mechanics are good for "realism", because its not. This is really nothing more than a cover up - they need to go the whole way, or undo things - in whoever favor, it doesn't matter. Until a change is made, they contradict themselves.


Well its a good thing CCP cares more about game mechanics than realism. If a mission runner/ratter wants you to loot and salvage for him then the tools are there to make that job easy by granting you full rights to it. On the other hand if your a scavenger and picking off other people wrecks then you have to work a bit harder as its not a completely sanctioned act so you only get salvage rights and not tractor or loot. So whats broken again? Neutral


Well as i said earlier - then all the idiots who made claims that the mechanic is an act to create realism - is completely wrong and forfeit - this is and can be no excuse for the mechanic at all then, to use it to justify it is invalid.

This means that CCP has the mechanics what they are, because they want it that way - the big question is why they want it that way, despite the debated imbalances of it, and the valid arguements that actually do carry weight, compared to other debates which usually carry no weight.

This same issue came up with jetcans in the past - CCP made the criminal flag change. There's a reason why they are unwilling to make the same change to create a simple solution, the same solution that they used to solve another issue that was almost exactly the same many years ago - the biggest question is why, why it is that CCP refuses to change the mechanic, or even talk about it.

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:54:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Tyrantus
Originally by: Xaen
In short, the game mechanic is halfassed and broken. The only way to be viable in the salvager profession is to be a professional jerk and invade the missions of others and steal out from under their noses.
If your a professional salvage runner then I'm going to assume you mean that you hire your services out to mission runners in the npc corp or a different player corp to make a buck and save them much time finishing missions.
In a perfect world yes.

But in EVE you have people scanning down and invading missions and stealing everything. Conversely we have mission runners that would love to sell you a bookmark to Recon 3 of 3 for 5M ISK.

The current mechanics require too much trust to work.

Originally by: Tyrantus
All you need to do is have whoever the mission runner your working for set you to +10 standings and you will get full tractor and loot rights.
Does this actually work? Or are you just saying it should work this way? Either way, the opportunity for the mission runner to scam the salvager still exists, so it's still halfassed at best.

Amastat
Caldari
Blue Ring Defence
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:55:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Amastat on 27/06/2008 18:02:51
Edited by: Amastat on 27/06/2008 18:01:40
Edited by: Amastat on 27/06/2008 17:59:43
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Amastat
You mean to the salvager - not to the one responsible for destroying the ship.
No, I mean the owner – the person who has a legal claim on the cargo.

Technically, though, that would mean the rat you just killed – but he's no longer around to claim it… Razz


I'm afraid your intereting your own dictionary very wrong then.

Originally by:
1. A payment or compensation to which those persons are entitled who have by their voluntary efforts saved a ship or its cargo from impending peril or rescued it from actual loss; e.g. from shipwreck or from capture by the enemy (called respectively civil and military or hostile salvage).

2. a. The action of saving a ship or its cargo from wreck, capture, etc. Phr. to make salvage of.

b. gen. The saving of property from fire or other danger. (Cf. salvage corps in 4.) Also fig.

c. In wartime, esp. the war of 1939-45: the saving and collection of waste material, esp. paper, for recycling; also transf., those who organized and carried out this collection.

3. a. Property salved or saved.

b. transf. and fig.

c. Waste material, esp. paper, suitable for recycling. (Cf. sense 2c above.)


The definition of salvage, the act of salvaging, and what is a salvager - in this case, the salvager. There's no mention of the original owners of the wrecked ship, unless the original owners are the one salvaging - however anyone can be a salvager by comitting the action, therefore - the cargo (jetcan), and the waste and material (salvage), could be salvaged by anyone.

No. 1 Also says: A payment or compensation to which those persons are entitled who have by their voluntary efforts saved a ship or its cargo from impending peril

This is not defined - unless the rest of the definitions defines it - which would mean that everything could potentially be compensation. If the terms of compensation is at the decision of the former owner, then it's at his/her decision - however that's not at all how salving in EVE Works.

Another issue that could be brought up is that, in the real world, those salving without the owners permission, could be fired apon for theft while at sea. There may be laws against that in some areas, but usually - in the open sea, you may defend your property and ship - whereas you cannot in EVE.

However, real life comparisons are apparently forfeit is seems :P so this is useless - the question is about CCP's intentions and reasons, despite all the reasons their decision is very flawed - not justification by realism and definition. We have to hold CCP accountable for it, not the definition.

But yea, all in all, this debate needs to be squashed. The stupidity factor in these debates are unreal, despite the outcome - it needs to be squashed, the stupidity of it is bad enough where it should be illegal.

Tyrantus
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:57:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Tyrantus on 27/06/2008 17:59:29


Oy vey...




edit. btw almost to page three keep it rolling guys.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:17:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Amastat
I'm afraid your inte[p]reting your own dictionary very wrong then.
No, I just haven't included the definitions of flotsam and jetsam (and lagan).

You'll notice that the definition of salvage speaks either about waste materials (i.e. not cargo) or about rewards for saving cargo. The salvager doesn't get the cargo itself – he only gets compensated for his efforts.

Monikerina
Amarr
Macross Space Defense Squadron
The Conglomeration of Ill Advised Ideas
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:25:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Donkee Punch
If you get a Rogue salvager.. target your wrecks and pop em right in the salvagers face.. Better that than have these little dipsticks steal you're hard earned salvage.



lol and it destroys your loot. Cut off the nose to spite the face.

Nathanial Victor
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:29:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Karentaki
Please, cry some more. Your tears are so juicy and delicious. The only '0 risk ISK' I see here is mission running. the pirates who salvage wrecks have infinitely more balls than you could ever hope for, and to be honest, if all you do is run missions, why not just go and play a single player game. Then you don't have to deal with all these 'people' and stuff reducing your pixel profit margins. In fact, I have a wonderful game for you to play that would probably be more in line with your playing style: HERE.


wow, your pretty out there.

1- how does a salvager in an npc corp have 'infinitely more balls than you could ever hope for'

2- your right, its an mmo and shouldn't be played as a single player game. isk farmers suck etc etc... this doesn't mean there aren't ppl out there that run missions to get some pvp isk

seems like your dodging the issue entirely. though mission running is about as low risk as it SHOULD get, you can atleast get your ship blown up if your stupid.

tell me how an npc salvager has MORE risk?

Nathanial Victor
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:30:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Nathanial Victor on 27/06/2008 18:38:36
anyone in my thread using the words 'real life' and anyone using a dictionary, please exit stage left Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Amastat

This same issue came up with jetcans in the past - CCP made the criminal flag change. There's a reason why they are unwilling to make the same change to create a simple solution, the same solution that they used to solve another issue that was almost exactly the same many years ago - the biggest question is why, why it is that CCP refuses to change the mechanic, or even talk about it.


zomg logic! thank you

i appreciate the ppl that have pointed out the current dev position as i really didn't know when i opened the thread.

this doesn't mean however the issue isn't open for discussion and certainly doesn't mean their position isn't completely wrong and wont be reversed at some point in the future.

its obviously a logical flaw that there is any difference between the salvage inside the wreck and loot contained inside of it. its semantics.

one dev declaring it so may set the rules for the moment, and while what they say is the gospel, they have been wrong in the past

its an agruement so silly i am baffled that ppl would argue for it. of course i'm sure those ppl also have personal stake in the subject and thats overly apparent when they also say "$#%(* mission runners $%* em they suck"

Tyrantus
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:34:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Monikerina
Originally by: Donkee Punch
If you get a Rogue salvager.. target your wrecks and pop em right in the salvagers face.. Better that than have these little dipsticks steal you're hard earned salvage.



lol and it destroys your loot. Cut off the nose to spite the face.


This would actually very effective in the long term if everyone would do it. The chances that a single isolated mission runner will get a salvage stealer is fairly low so the loss of loot is negligible at best but when it does happen you totally deny the thief any of his salvage income. If you do it every time a looter invades and others do the same then the net effect is that the salvage stealers income will vanish and you will make like .5% less income in the odd mission you get a thief.

Mankirks Wife
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.27 19:18:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Mankirks Wife on 27/06/2008 19:21:29
Hmm.. looks like nanowhines are out, ninja salvaging is in. Let us all participate in the new Flame of the Week! (FoTW)

I think the current system is fine, btw. If you can't handle ninja salvagers don't mission in hubs, it's really that simple. If you cry enough I'm sure CCP will change the mechanics so salvaging flags for aggression and then you'll get 10x more whines from people who salvaged a belt wreck and got shot, or people who used their uber powers of defending their deadspace wrecks and then got wtfbbqfacepwned when the pirates came back in a gank ship. Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it you know.

Quote:
This would actually very effective in the long term if everyone would do it.


Not really.. ninja salvaging is very poor income compared to something else they could with the same skill set and ships (like exploration). People do it mostly to listen to other people complain.

Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.06.27 19:50:00 - [53]
 

Wow, I'm surprised I'm not in this thread yet.

Razz

Gatu
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Posted - 2008.06.27 19:54:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Nathanial Victor

Whats up with that? If they loot the can i can pwn them. If they salvage it i can't.



Silly mission runner. You can't salvage a can!

Steel Tigeress
Gallente
R0GUE ENTITY
Posted - 2008.06.27 20:10:00 - [55]
 

If it was my decision to make, and its not, I know...

Then I would make it so wrecks in missions would flag a person, only while the mission is active. Once the mission is turned in, and the deadspace area goes away wrecks would be open season.

Add to this a prob that can actually scan for wrecks.

Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
Posted - 2008.06.27 20:12:00 - [56]
 

The Great Whine Cycle:

1. A Ninja salvager invades a mission runner's mission, steals all the glorious salvage. YARRRR!!
2. The mission runner whines on the forums. Crying or Very sad
3. CCP thinks, "why are people only doing this and not going pew pew like we wanted? Hmmmm." Question
4. CCP creates Factional Warfare specifically to encourage folks like the mission runner to go pew pew. Idea
5. The mission runner, fed up with ninja salvagers and lag in Motsu decides to enlist in the militia. LOL PEW PEW! Life is good again. Very Happy
6. Unfortunately, while steps 2 - 6 were going on, the Industrious But Evil Ninja Salvager has finally collected enough trit bars to build -- dun dun DUUUUUN!!! -- a full set of polycarb rigs for his HAC. YARRRR!!
7. The Nano*** Formerly Known As Ninja Salvager heads out to low sec to prey on militiamen. He costs the mission runner millions in drakes and caracals without losing a single ship. YARRRR!!
8. The mission runner whines on the forums. MadCrying or Very sad
9. Realizing that any nerf to nanos will be months away, the mission runner returns to Motsu and his former profession... the Great Cycle is complete and begins again. ugh

Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.06.27 20:18:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Steel Tigeress
Then I would make it so wrecks in missions would flag a person, only while the mission is active. That way, when a Mission Runner shoots at the Ninja Salvager with his PvE fit BS and misses (or hits poorly) because of the horrible tracking, the Ninja Salvager quickly docks and switches to his PvP fit ship. When he returns, he scrambles and webs the Mission Runner, who, defenseless, either explodes or pays the ransom the Ninja Salvager asks for.


I fixed your post. That about right?

Do Mission Runners fit ECM? No. Do they fit a point? No. Will they complain when they get ganked because of underestimating their opponent? Yes.

Do you want that aggro now?

Cool

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.06.27 20:21:00 - [58]
 

all honesty there should be some way to engage ninja salvagers. it seems silly that there isn't a concord-free way to ever shoot a high sec one that's in an NPC corp

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.06.27 20:22:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Tchell Dahhn

Do you want that aggro now?
Cool



sure why not, i can always switch boats once aggro ticker starts

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.06.27 20:23:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Do Mission Runners fit ECM? No. Do they fit a point? No. Will they complain when they get ganked because of underestimating their opponent? Yes.

Do you want that aggro now?

Cool
Yes Twisted Evil

Oh, you thought I was going to fight you in my mission ship? LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing


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