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blankseplocked [Issue] Allowing Corps to Sign up for FW without Leaving Alliances
 
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Orb Lati
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.29 11:18:00 - [91]
 

Not supported.

Faction Warfare is a stepping stone to Alliance Warfare.
If you wish to play with the "New Shiny" ask to leave your corp for a period of time.


Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.06.29 13:22:00 - [92]
 

Would make sense, altho if one corp within alliance joins militia it should block possibility for other corps in same alliance join opposing 2 militias (nothing wrong if corps join say amarr and caldary or minamatar and gallente militias).

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.29 13:36:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Orb Lati
Not supported.

Faction Warfare is a stepping stone to Alliance Warfare.



OK, so to help make it a stepping stone, we isolate FW players in their own bubble where they cannot interact with Alliance communities, and set the game up so that their entire corp has to move from FW into 0.0 at the same time, and so they cannot have experienced alliance politics or organisation before they move?

Genius design.


(already supported)

Kalahari Wayrest
Posted - 2008.06.29 13:57:00 - [94]
 

I support this, though am unsure on implementation

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions

Posted - 2008.06.29 14:49:00 - [95]
 

Supported.

Its simply a matter of allowing an alliance to join ONLY ONE faction, with the executor corp applying for the faction. Naturally it will then be a matter of internal debate as to which faction should be joined.

Lil'Bunneh FoFo
THE FINAL STAND
Posted - 2008.06.29 19:10:00 - [96]
 

I would support this if it meant alliances had to sign off their ability to take sov. Half and half wouldn't cut it, either dedicate to Faction Warfare, or dedicate to 0.0. It's gamebreaking any other way.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.30 00:09:00 - [97]
 

*sigh*

NO!!!

Some alliances are massive and thus would easily sway the faction warfare easily.

They have 0.0 for that.

This is to help encourage players who have not really PvPed before to try it on a small scale. If they wanted to get ultra-blobbed trying to PvP they would go to 0.0 and do it that way.

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.30 08:25:00 - [98]
 

Just for the record: Blobbing is as common in FW as in 0.0 - and why shouldn't it be as it is the easiest 'strategy' (blobsize may be smaller with 'only' 50-100 ships). Add in the numbers disparity and you'll see why balance is skewed. But that's a different story :P

Sara 7
Minmatar
The Black Ops
Posted - 2008.07.01 05:28:00 - [99]
 

A resounding "NO" to this proposal.

Though I am a proponent of FW and lived in 0.0 for most of the 8 months, if you want to play with the shiny FW mechanics or even just get regular combat, sorry but get out of your big alliance corps and join the militia.

/me puts on flame-proof suit.

Vistoxia Marigos
Posted - 2008.07.02 09:52:00 - [100]
 

Vote For, those from 0.0 who want to fight in this are already doing it anyway

Tlar Sanqua
Gallente
Gallente Defence Initiative
Posted - 2008.07.02 13:52:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Tlar Sanqua on 02/07/2008 13:51:42
The idea of a single corp within an alliance being able to join a militia is a good idea. It would act as a PR outlet for that alliance and provide a stepping stone between 0.0 and FW.

Having all the corps in an alliance join FW is the same effect as having the alliance sign up so I'd say no, unless a proviso could be written in to the code that if multiple corps from an alliance wish to join, that alliance must have no sovereignty.

Doc Extropy
Gallente
Cruentus Invicta
The Covenant Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.02 15:18:00 - [102]
 

Yeah, I support it.

Bring the Ushra'Khan into FW. Very Happy

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.07.04 15:52:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 04/07/2008 15:53:37

I'm putting this on the agenda for sundays CSM meeting. I think its a vital ISSUE and it needs to be right on the top of the agenda the next time we meet with CCP. FW can only be improved by allowing long term RP alliances to fully integrate with the ongoing struggle and I believe its wrong in principle to deny game content to the existing player base.


Lucy'Lastic
Posted - 2008.07.04 16:21:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Lucy''Lastic on 04/07/2008 16:24:54
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 04/07/2008 15:53:37

FW can only be improved by allowing long term RP alliances to fully integrate with the ongoing struggle and I believe its wrong in principle to deny game content to the existing player base.




The only people excluded from FW are those that don't have standings with the Empires. It is you that is denying yourself game content because you refuse to leave your Alliance.

There's nothing stopping you from making an out of Alliance corp and moving any members who want to participate in FW into it.

I don't see what the big deal is tbh.

Not supported

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.07.08 16:45:00 - [105]
 


Issue passed the CSM vote 6-3 so its going on the next agenda with ccp where we'll be asking for this to be implemented with the all corps in alliance joining FW militia need to be on the same side option.

This is a VITAL issue for RP alliances in particular - and its also a very important principle to me personally that players should not be excluded from new game content because of previously encouraged organizational development choices (alliance establishment).

Arguing that players should abandon long-term established player alliances with history and friendships and long camaraderie to take part in new game content is something I consider is simply wrong.


Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.08 23:57:00 - [106]
 

FW was released by CCP as a way for people who weren't familiar with PvP to gain experience with PvP without having to enter PvP full bore. They described FW as a sort of introductory PvP.

It is impossible to see how FW can fulfill this promise and vision if large alliances are pounding around in FW with all their amassed PvP experience, numbers and already established lines of communication. They will simply absorb FW and dominate it.

The attempt by CCP to use FW to get people out of high sec and into the PvP arena will fail and at best it will become nothing but a recruitment gimick for the large alliances. "Want to enjoy FW? Join the big alliance or die fast."

Keeping large alliances out of FW is not an attempt to deny game content to those in large alliances. It is an attempt to familiarize people with PvP so that they transition to low sec and 0.0 and join in the fun that large alliances already enjoy. As such alliances should welcome the current situation as it is designed to alleviate one of the most persistent complaints from dwellers of 0.0, i.e. not enough people in 0.0.

Windjammer

KillJoy Tseng
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.07.10 01:06:00 - [107]
 

First off, horay for the standard fallacies about all alliances being huge and automatically overwhelming everything. And also I like the idea that this is going to keep big experienced groups of players out with the way things are.

Right now, as however many naysayers have suggested, it's perfectly possible for an alliance to group into a corp and go join up. I don't have numbers, but I rather suspect this has happened quite a bit. Except... hey, there's these RP alliances that went and formed a collection of like-minded corps, each with different viewpoints. Who have no IC reason given to dissolve their separate identities. So the group of people who in a lot of cases ICly would be most about signing up... won't.

As for keeping the experience level down... I don't know if you guys have noticed but 0utbreak went and signed up, among others.

I mean, I'd be perfectly happy if it were restricted to non-sov holding alliances and I suspect most others would too, but alliance doesn't automatically mean huge, nor does it mean nullsec.

Trabber Shir
Caldari
5I Incorporated

Posted - 2008.07.10 02:03:00 - [108]
 

I support this with 2 stipulations (both already proposed)

1. Multiple members of 1 alliance should not be allowed to sign up with opposing factions.

2. A corporation should not be eligible if they are in an alliance that holds sovereignty. This would help stop the goons and other large alliances from dominating FW.

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.07.12 15:06:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Trabber Shir
I support this with 2 stipulations (both already proposed)

1. Multiple members of 1 alliance should not be allowed to sign up with opposing factions.

2. A corporation should not be eligible if they are in an alliance that holds sovereignty. This would help stop the goons and other large alliances from dominating FW.


I completely disagree with number 2 (and if you really want to lock the goons out, jut set a decent standings requirement), but point 1 is interesting.

Why do people care so much about that?

People inside alliances can already shoot each other if they want to. If an alliance can't manage internal discipline that's their problem.

Lord Frost
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.07.12 19:51:00 - [110]
 

Not supported.

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:56:00 - [111]
 

(Bumping to ensure the topic stays alive until it's followed through on by CCP.)

I fully support my erstwhile foe's proposal to allow corps to join FW while remaining in alliances. Some assorted thoughts:

* Obviously, such corps should (at least) be required to meet the same requirements that independent corps must meet (ie, faction standings).

* I'd even support making the threshold a bit higher (frankly, I think the standard threshold is far too low).

* While I'm not opposed to being asked to sacrifice sovereignty rights for ability to join the militia, I think this would give my side too strong an advantage (U'K, EM, and others could join; CVA could not).

* I don't particularly feel there's a need to make mechanisms to prevent corps from joining opposing factions; this should be easily handled by the alliance leadership, if necessary.

* If such limits are found necessary, then all that is needed is for each alliance to have a radio selector to allow the alliance to 'show support for' one side or the other. Corps in the alliance can only join a faction that their alliance 'supports', though standings restrictions would still apply. Further, this selection cannot be changed so long as any member corp is enlisted in a militia. (Note that if this is done, support should be visible; U'K will want to know about all alliances supporting the Amarrian faction.)

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2008.09.17 22:04:00 - [112]
 

What will be the downside of being able to keep the logistics wing out of the militia, standings going to **** across the alliance for affiliation with the warring faction?

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.09.18 02:48:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 18/09/2008 15:55:40


Bad ju ju.

FFS, we already have an alliance fielding a TITAN to try to control the outcome of a war that's mainly being fought by people who are new to the game, or at least so new to PvP that they really have no clue how to fit a ship.

There's a whole big galaxy out there for end-game PvP. FW was supposed to be entry-level PvP. CCP, follow your initial instinct and keep 0.0 e-peen out of it. It's clear that if you open this gate, the folks out there just trying to fit an entry level cruiser and have some fun will be completely overshadowed by 0.0 politics and power plays.

I understand and respect that the established factional powers who RP out there in 0.0 feel like they are entitled to get in on the FW action, but there really isn't any way to do that without them simply taking over and pushing the little guys out. If that wasn't clear before we had an Erebus out there providing logistical support for noob plexing gangs, it's damn sure clear now.

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.09.18 16:07:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: KillJoy Tseng


As for keeping the experience level down... I don't know if you guys have noticed but 0utbreak went and signed up, among others.

I mean, I'd be perfectly happy if it were restricted to non-sov holding alliances and I suspect most others would too, but alliance doesn't automatically mean huge, nor does it mean nullsec.


It's not all about experience level. Yeah, some PvP corps from 0.0 signed up and played for a while. They got tired of too-easy ganks and left.

That's a different kettle of fish from having CVA, and Ushra, and Star Fraction being able to sign up. If that happens, FW is going to become all about a war between those established players. Everyone else will end up marginalized, especially those fighting for Caldari, for whom there is no sizable established RP alliance.

Alliance doesn't NECESSARILY mean big and powerful, but, once again, we do have an Erebus being fielded by one of the entities that is pushing this change hardest. Something tells me that when the established players show up, they won't be showing up with cruisers and frigs.

There is every RP reason in the world why this change should happen. The only reason it shouldn't happen is because FW was supposed to be about entry-level PvP. If it becomes 0.0 lite, which it will if this goes through, that's pretty much out the window. A player just trying to learn to PvP will end up just as much cannon fodder in FW as they would by just moving to 0.0. Jade et. al. will get to wave their e-peen and be big fish in a little pond, but that's not what FW was supposed to be for.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.09.18 16:21:00 - [115]
 

!

Sweet Rosella
0utbreak
Posted - 2008.09.18 16:51:00 - [116]
 

to much power for the super alliances

Super alliances will have to much influance and it will end up with alliance v alliance instead of faction v faction and the smaller players will get overwelmed by blobs

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.09.18 23:32:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Alliance doesn't NECESSARILY mean big and powerful, but, once again, we do have an Erebus being fielded by one of the entities that is pushing this change hardest. Something tells me that when the established players show up, they won't be showing up with cruisers and frigs.

First, the existing version of FW has seen every ship up to motherships in use by corps in FW, and I'm fairly sure that the only thing that has prevented titans from being prominant players is the perception (true or not) that they aren't useful in lowsec combat. Further, I've seen militia battles with significant numbers of capital ships on both sides, as well. This issue has nothing to due with alliance vs. corp as a unit of entry into FW.

Second, the size limit for entry into complexes provides a natural limit to the usefulness of large ships, whether they are capital ships or even battleships.

Third, the lack of rewards provides a limit to the attractiveness of FW for the big powerhouse nullsec alliances, or even smaller alliances that don't have an RP reason for involvement.

Fourth, look at the size (number of members) of, say, Ushra'Khan, then look at the size of the Minmatar militia. If you are concerned that Ushra'Khan will somehow dominate a group of pilots ten times our number, then I think that's more an indictment of the militia than of the concept of alliances entering FW.

Last, regarding the concern that if alliances like CVA and U'K were to join, then FW would become all about the war between them ... you've got this exactly opposite of the truth. CCP created in their backstory the war slavers and enslaved, and U'K has been fighting that war for years, with no support from game mechanics. That same war has been given mechanics now, and CCP has written us out of the storyline. It's not that there's a risk of the militia being drawn into some proxy war, it's that CCP has evicted us from the RP war we've been fighting for years.

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:01:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 19/09/2008 17:03:18


Originally by: Becq Starforged

First, the existing version of FW has seen every ship up to motherships in use by corps in FW, and I'm fairly sure that the only thing that has prevented titans from being prominant players is the perception (true or not) that they aren't useful in lowsec combat. Further, I've seen militia battles with significant numbers of capital ships on both sides, as well. This issue has nothing to due with alliance vs. corp as a unit of entry into FW.


It has everything to do with it. The entities that would be allowed in if this is approved have vastly greater resources than those who are participating now. There is little doubt that if this is acted upon by CCP as it is proposed, the RP alliances will determine the outcome of FW. FW will become the domain of those aliances. Everyone else will be also-rans who have little to no impact.

If that is CCP's intent, cool, but they just need to understand that if this goes through, they can pretty much forget the notion that FW is going to be attractive to empire dwelling novice PvPers.

Quote:
Second, the size limit for entry into complexes provides a natural limit to the usefulness of large ships, whether they are capital ships or even battleships.


Uhhhh... ever heard the saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight"? Yeah, you can't get a carriers into a minor plex, but you can sure cover the entrance to one with them. I cover the gate with cruisers, you bring battleships, I bring battleships, you bring carriers, I bring dreds to kill your carriers, you bring dreds to kill my dreds. Not long until we have cap ship battles over minor plexes.

Quote:
Third, the lack of rewards provides a limit to the attractiveness of FW for the big powerhouse nullsec alliances, or even smaller alliances that don't have an RP reason for involvement.


Please. I think you could say the same about Providence. Yes, I understand that nobody but the RP alliances will care (except maybe Goon, since they'd like to make you cry). Yes, I understand that you'd like the RP alliances to own FW. Lets see if CCP would like that too.

Quote:
Fourth, look at the size (number of members) of, say, Ushra'Khan, then look at the size of the Minmatar militia. If you are concerned that Ushra'Khan will somehow dominate a group of pilots ten times our number, then I think that's more an indictment of the militia than of the concept of alliances entering FW.


Uhhh.. you're joking right? Most of those folks are marginally active at best. Since Outbreak and some others left the militias are lucky to raise fleets of 30-40 during the week, maybe 100 on the weekend, and those fleets are comprised of mostly novice PvPers and FCs. Yeah, I think you'll dominate it. Easily.

Quote:
Last, regarding the concern that if alliances like CVA and U'K were to join, then FW would become all about the war between them ... you've got this exactly opposite of the truth.


If you join, it will become all about you and Star against CVA. The Caldari faction will be a weak sister whose players will probably stick close to the CVA Amar fleets so they don't get steamrolled. Controlling the entrance to plexes will become cap-ship affairs.

In short, it'll become 0.0 lite with better mechanics for the RP power players. The NPC militia corps will become irrelevent. They won't get invited to your fleets. They'll just wander around getting ganked until they empty. I'm not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, but lets not have any illusions about what making this change would mean.

SOFcode Z777
Caldari
Human Enhancement Tech.
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:32:00 - [119]
 

No support, for several reasons already presented here.

To resume, alliances in eve already have their space and eve machanisms to explore and play against each other. Leave FW for the small and medium size corps to play with now.
Allowing all corps inside alliance to enter is the same as allowing the alliance itself.
Allowing 1 corp inside an alliance to enter could be exploited as they could change members between one corp to another, not speaking about the mess that previous alliances war decs and sorts could bring along inside a gang militia.

I don't see why FW should be yet another feature to see wars of the past repeating itself inside. Yet another theater for CVA X UK and megablobs at space making the corporations and militia itself nule in terms of play and influence.


Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.09.19 23:22:00 - [120]
 

So, to summarize, you are concerned that, if such a change is made, that an alliance like CVA will abandon their nullsec holdings so that they can park a carrier in front of each and every minor installation and gank noobs in T1 frigs? Even if they did that, they'd also have to park an interceptor with each carrier. Then, of course, the pair of T1 frigates with a stab each laugh at them as they go in and cap the plex in perfect safety. Less than a million isk just pwned over a billion isk. Where else in EVE can such a thing occur? You mention the knife in a gunfight analogy, but a more accurate analogy would be a knife vs. a halbard ... in a dense jungle. Who's gonna win that fight?

In any case, you word these sorts of things as fears that might come to pass should the Big Bad Alliances get their way, but the fact is, that such ships are already being deployed in FW without the involvement of alliances, with just as little effect, to my view. I've seen the Amarrians play station games in a small handfuls of carriers, but the only damage they did was to bored pilots who didn't feel like ... I dunno, just not warping to that particular station. Then there was a POS battle where an unknown (to me, but over a dozen) capital ships where involved, but none were lost on either side. Early on, I think it was RA who tried muscling in on State turf and lost 2-3 carriers to a bunch of noobs in T1 frigs and cruisers.

Yup. There's clearly a danger here...

Regarding Providence, I think there's a great parallel to be drawn there. With a few (brief) exceptions, the only people that ever fight over it are CVA, U'K, and their allies. Why? Because it's worthless, beyond it's RP value. Any large alliance could walk in and grab it at any time, if they set their minds to it. Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't be easy; CVA is well entrenched. But it would just be a matter of how many lost ships it would take to dislodge them.

I think that FW would be treated similarly. If the BBAs wanted to screw with FW, they already can. The Goons could drop a 50-man blob in every FW system today, if they had the motivation. Sure, they wouldn't have any WTs, but that's never stopped them in the past. Sure, they'd have gate guns firing, but do you think that would really matter to the capital blobs you're so fond of pointing out? The only thing they gain from joining the militia is the one thing they could care less about: the ability to cap plexes. Not having access doesn't stop them from interfering with FW; apathy does. There's just no reason to do it, especially since they'd have to spend weeks or months grinding standings first, and by joining would give up half of the potential targets they'd otherwise have.

RP alliances like U'K want to be in this fight because we've always been in this fight, until we were evicted by CCP. Would we dominate FW? Well, I'd like to think that we'd have some impact, otherwise what would be the point for anyone to join FW? Perhaps our more experienced pilots and FCs would pass on some of their experience, for example. But as far as 'taking over' is concerned, the worst thing we could do to those unwilling to bow before the awesome intellect of our benevolent dictatorial rule would be ... well, I suppose we could not invite them to gangs we organized, which would leave them ... uh ... right where they are now.

So basically, your biggest fear is that the hordes of novice PvPers in FW might learn something?

Besides, the bulk of the FW playerbase is pirates and alts of BBA members, anyway. Why not let in some people who actually give a damn about the storyline to give a hand to the novices who might actually learn to enjoy the storyline?


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