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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:17:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: deadlast
It's not like it's one unit sold hands off. ccp has to resell this product every month to every player.


Indeed, but do you blame the petrol station for the rough ride in your car when you drive over potholes? Or do you blame the highways agency?

Bear in mind that many other MMOs, which are sharded, will have a server that is physically located much closer to you than Tranquility is. In the same way that a traffic jam in New York doesn't disrupt your daily commute if you live and work in California, you'll only experience problems where these particular backbones sit between you and the service you are trying to use.

Originally by: thirstytom
I have fios, which is very fast. no reason I should be experiencing this


Strangely enough, your fios line does not run all the way from your house to London. The data is probably going along your line fine. But once it gets from your home to the wider backbone infrastructure, your traffic is nothing special. It's just another packet of data, merged with everyone elses, and passed over the same backbone connections.

Back to the car analogy - the roads in your neighborhood can be the most amazing roads in the world, but that won't help you avoid a traffic jam once you've merged into the highway.

Rufus MacMaranth
Gallente
TOG Empire
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:23:00 - [122]
 

It all seems to have drastically improved (at least here in Missouri) over the last hour or so. If anyone had looked at the backbone stats that were linked in another thread you would have seen that Savvis and Sprint were both having issues with availability and at one point one of the other connects was dropping a large number of packets.

Guess things are better now, at least here.
Ruf.

Gaufres
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:23:00 - [123]
 

It seems strange to me that these problems only seem to happen after a major update/patch by CCP.

Orion Shurtak
Amarr
Mission Runners United
Overtime Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:23:00 - [124]
 

East Coast of US here and still dropping out. I have plenty of cheese for all the whine in here. Just relax and let those in the know fix the problems. I have been playing eve since 2003 and this has happened before and will probably happen again. Each and every time was Evs's Internet provider and not Eve.

If you insist on leaving the game because you can't play then see if you can login long enough to contract me your stuff before you leave.Cool

Melystus
Gallente
Legio Immortalis
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:23:00 - [125]
 

Oklahoma, US

been having a lot of issues of late and have tracked it to a problem in Chicago. Anyone routed thru there will likely be having issues.

Commander Thrawn
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:25:00 - [126]
 

nah its still a problem. its just insanely sporatic. I will be connected fine for like 1h the i drop every 10mins for the next

My isp is Videotron in montreal, Canada. and I am not having connection issue as my vent stay connected and the live stream radio i am running is working fine too.

Only thing that drop are the eve client on both systems.

Synn Seitti
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:26:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Synn Seitti on 20/06/2008 22:29:35
Hey guys CCP is paying for an ISP that's having problems, clearly it's not their responsibility to do anything about it at all. Maybe it'll just clear up on it's own.

CCP buys bandwidth from limelight. That means they can demand answers about why there's problems with llwn routers. It would be courtious to relay that to the players, even a simple "They are replacing defective hardware, it should be resolved within 45 minutes".

That said, it's been good since 22:00 EVE here so perhaps these 5 minute disconnects are over.

edit: for the people still having problems, is it llwn or someone else? I'm rr.com->llwn.net with no other backbones, so all issues I have are with one of those two.


Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:28:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Commander Thrawn
nah its still a problem. its just insanely sporatic. I will be connected fine for like 1h the i drop every 10mins for the next

My isp is Videotron in montreal, Canada. and I am not having connection issue as my vent stay connected and the live stream radio i am running is working fine too.

Only thing that drop are the eve client on both systems.


The sporadicness probably depends on luck of the draw as to when the dodgy connection drops your packets as opposed to someone elses.

As for radio and vent staying up, where are those servers based? It could be that they are in a completely different location, that you access via a different backbone.

laststance
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:28:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: deadlast
It's not like it's one unit sold hands off. ccp has to resell this product every month to every player.


Indeed, but do you blame the petrol station for the rough ride in your car when you drive over potholes? Or do you blame the highways agency?

Bear in mind that many other MMOs, which are sharded, will have a server that is physically located much closer to you than Tranquility is. In the same way that a traffic jam in New York doesn't disrupt your daily commute if you live and work in California, you'll only experience problems where these particular backbones sit between you and the service you are trying to use.

Originally by: thirstytom
I have fios, which is very fast. no reason I should be experiencing this


Strangely enough, your fios line does not run all the way from your house to London. The data is probably going along your line fine. But once it gets from your home to the wider backbone infrastructure, your traffic is nothing special. It's just another packet of data, merged with everyone elses, and passed over the same backbone connections.

Back to the car analogy - the roads in your neighborhood can be the most amazing roads in the world, but that won't help you avoid a traffic jam once you've merged into the highway.





I dont like the car analogy heres a better one

I have a house and buy natural gas from company A.the next day the gas stop, I call the company A and then company A tells me it company B distribution network that went down.

I have threw no fault or action on my own to caused the disruption yet bear the cost.

if its ccp isp fault thats fine if it's ccp fault thats fine too but the players shouldn't have to bear the loss in lost ships ect.



Hungry Hippo
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:29:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Hungry Hippo on 20/06/2008 22:40:45
Big spike just now.
Response time just went up to 700ms followed by another couple to 500ms, a minute later there was no response what so ever for about 20 seconds.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:48:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: laststance
I dont like the car analogy heres a better one

I have a house and buy natural gas from company A.the next day the gas stop, I call the company A and then company A tells me it company B distribution network that went down.

I have threw no fault or action on my own to caused the disruption yet bear the cost.

if its ccp isp fault thats fine if it's ccp fault thats fine too but the players shouldn't have to bear the loss in lost ships ect.


Well, in the case of the gas supplier, a fault is fairly easy to identify and compensate for - they will know who's on the end of the blocked pipe.

The case in Eve is not as clear cut. They can't be sure who is genuinely disconnecting due to this issue, and who is pulling their network cable out mid-gank in the hope of faking the problem and getting their ship back.

While you would of course say they should be more lenient during this time, to reduce the impact of those affected, you have to bear in mind the impact of unjust reimbursements. If I've just lost half a dozen ships taking down a high value target, I'm going to lose out if they get it back by taking advantage of the current situation and faking a disconnect.

Hungry Hippo
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:50:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Hungry Hippo on 20/06/2008 22:53:41
Check out this site for World Latency amounts, you can also see where most internet traffic is coming from etc..

Linkage

More visual charts here:
Linkage

Vespa Orebane
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Posted - 2008.06.20 22:58:00 - [133]
 

We've had a few more disconnects in the past few hours here in Australia.

kewtip
Posted - 2008.06.20 23:06:00 - [134]
 

My current ISP is verizon, and im located in the US, east coast... the disconnects appear to be coming in waves. about 2-6 disconnects in a 10 minute window with about 45minute to 1hr gaps inbetween.

Acidictadpole
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2008.06.20 23:08:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Acidictadpole on 20/06/2008 23:08:42
Still an issue for me :(

ON. Canada

Sora Komachi
Minmatar
Six Sense Corp.
Posted - 2008.06.20 23:15:00 - [136]
 

I'm Sitting in Holland, my ISP is a new fused company named Ziggo.

The DC's are comming at random here too.

Its a global problem or so it seems, then again, Ziggo made a record in the Dutch Consumers Union for being the worst ISP in all of Holland.

Siriana
Posted - 2008.06.20 23:15:00 - [137]
 

Can I just make the point that on the http://internethealthreport.com/ indicates that a latency number higher than 180ms is deemed to be 'critical'.
Hmmm..... where does that leave the average solar system in Empire....?

Shocked

Zanpt
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.20 23:55:00 - [138]
 

I find the fanbois far more irritating than any amateur network observers who guess at the problem or leap to incorrect conclusions.

I have been in Eve two years. There have been connectivity problems all during that time, more at times and less at other times, but consistent reports of problems ONLY with Eve.

I have been in software design and programming, operating system design and programming and maintenance, networking and Internet server authoring, some of it going back 45 years. Since the age of networking I have seen appalling levels of incompetence among those who are paid to configure and run networks.

Recently and until the start of this problem yesterday (Eve time), connectivity issues had been minimal. Since the start of this problem the game is effectively unplayable. It's not even possible to remain docked and chat, since the effect of a lost connection doesn't show until the client tries to communicate with the server and one can't be sure what chat postings got through.

Connectivity problems in the two years I have been subject to them have been CCP problems (various), CCP's Internet feeds close to the cluster, CCP's feeds farther from the cluster and, at times, backbone problems. Sometimes a combination of several of the above. Of course I have also experienced local ISP, networking and power problems, but those are usually identifiable as such.

It is very misleading to claim that CCP is not responsible and unable to do anything about problems outside their London cluster. CCP selects the providers of their Internet feeds. They have been using llnw.net for some time, and llnw.net sucks rocks. PingPlotter frequently and easily shows llnw.net problems close to the CCP cluster... high packet loss rates and complete outages. Level 3 has had similar problems but fewer than llnw.net.

As customers of their Internet providers CCP has access to them and CCP's complaints and issues should carry some weight with the providers. After all, if CCP has alternatives and some balls, they can terminate a provider and add another to the mix.

As to Internet routing, the Internet does not work like the descriptions of early ARPANET. Email is no longer relayed through many host nodes; one mail server establishes a TCP connection with a distant mail server and the only intermediaries are routers and switches. Rerouting around outages in the Internet will usually break TCP connections like our Eve client connections. Excessive packet latency and/or dropped packets may cause loss of connection while immediately reconnecting will usually succeed. So alternative routing may keep connectivity in general available but individual TCP connections will often be broken by the mechanics of such flexibility.

An undercut to this entire discussion is this: CCP could, if they wished, write a resilient connectivity layer to use TCP or even UDP and protect users against all but the most severe and prolonged outages. It is completely up to the application programmer how to handle an apparent loss of connection. It is CCP's choice to have no resiliency and to "crash" back to the login screen with connection loss messages, tossing all the transient data in the client. This is their choice. They could choose to reestablish the connection, maintaining the "session" as the user sees it. If they used UDP with their own layer of transmission control there would be no loss of connection since the connection would be virtual, completely in the hands of the client and server CCP software. Their software could implement a rule such as, "If we can't get traffic going again for, oh, 10 minutes, then we will consider that the virtual connection has been lost. Until then we will attempt to reconnect or get traffic flowing and, if successful, there will have been a delay but nothing lost."

That could still have consequences in PvP, missions, etc., but what we have now is the worst of all possible scenarios.

Gridwalker
Amarr
Divine Power.
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.21 00:27:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Zanpt
I find the fanbois far more irritating than any amateur network observers who guess at the problem or leap to incorrect conclusions.


Not lumping you in this category, but equally annoying are the haters, who find glee in bashing on CCP at every possibly opportunity.

In this particular case, the problem is a router in CCP's ISP. I don't think there is any doubt about that. Whether or not they should be on that ISP is an entirely different conversation. This current issue is only indirectly their fault.

But what you said about their network code not being particularly robust... I 100% agree with that statement. There is no reason the client should be so fragile. I'm also very frustrated that the client is unable to recognize trouble when it happens. There is no excuse for the client not recognizing when it loses connection!

-Grid

Steve Celeste
Overdogs
Posted - 2008.06.21 00:55:00 - [140]
 

It's obviously because of the patch.

Please fix it or give us the option to undo the optional patch.
O yes and nerf nano!!

Zanpt
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.21 01:13:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Gridwalker
I'm also very frustrated that the client is unable to recognize trouble when it happens. There is no excuse for the client not recognizing when it loses connection!


It's an extremely common problem that TCP apps can't tell when they have lost a connection. TCP has no way to inform the app of a lost connection until and unless outbound traffic yields a hard error. As long as an app doesn't try to send anything and doesn't expect to receive anything, a "stealth disconnection" can go on for a very long time. The Eve client suffers from this a lot.

A common solution to this problem is to implement a "heartbeat," some small message whose only purpose is to demonstrate to the other side of the connection that the connection and this host are still alive and well. Alas, this results in extra traffic which, in CCP's case, must be multiplied by 40,000 or so to see the full effect. A heartbeat can be in just one direction or in both directions, often required in only one.

CCP seems to be using TCP in its simplest form, with essentially no resilience or error handling other than to throw up their hands and say, "Well, I guess that means we've lost the connection!" That would be Network Programming 100.1. A fairly simple thing to do is write the server to not immediately throw away the user/connection data and to wait for a reconnection for a reasonable time. At the client side an apparent connection loss can be treated with the view of "Well, we can't have that, so let's keep all the data and just try to reestablish the connection." Coordination between the client and server could easily bypass the login for a reconnect. Similarly, load sharing could be bypassed for reconnections and the new connection could be made to or directed to the same element of the cluster that was handling the original connection. None of this requires any changes to the TCP or TCP/IP stack.

Using UDP requires copying or recreating most of the transmission control that is what TCP does. But unlike TCP's strict interpretation of what constitutes a "connection," this would regard the connection as being longer term and spanning periods of errors or absence of traffic. This does not require changes to TCP, UDP or TCP/IP but involves more work, as it must duplicate much of what is in the TCP layer.

It's even possible, perhaps likely, that resilient protocol layers exist for doing some or all of this.

Yoinx
Caldari
Chemtrail Production Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.21 01:34:00 - [142]
 

I've been monitoring my link to tranq for a couple hours now....


Less than 100ms ping times from the East Coast of the US.

Problem appears to be solved to me. I get random 100% packet loss for a second here and there... but thats to be expected.

Gartanus
Caldari
Gartanus Corp
Posted - 2008.06.21 02:59:00 - [143]
 

Kansas here. Still jerky screen and disconnect at random. Guess I will give it one more day and see how things go. At least I can get in now to change skills. Yesterday I couldn't even get the log in screen to come up. From reading the posts in the forums, its clear that progress is being made. I just hope this is fixed soon, Its forceing me to talk to my wife. ....whispers.....She scares me sometimes Surprised lol

Napro
Caldari
Simplistic Syndicate
Cha0s Theory
Posted - 2008.06.21 03:10:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Napro on 21/06/2008 03:10:38
So I petitioned my Pod-loss due to disconnect... and CCP says it's not going to do it because to do so would open the window for massive exploitation of the petition system.

Hmm.

You KNOW there was a connect problem for hundreds/thousands of users(since you made this thread, obviously)

Yet, You imply that I may be exploiting the petition system and therefore I get no reimbursement.

Do you admit there was a problem or not? How can I be an exploiter when you yourselves admit in this thread that there was a problem?

Kame Malice
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.21 03:14:00 - [145]
 

New Hampshire USA user
Metrocast High Speed internet

No problems on my end. Hope that information helps.

Napro
Caldari
Simplistic Syndicate
Cha0s Theory
Posted - 2008.06.21 03:20:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Kame Malice
New Hampshire USA user
Metrocast High Speed internet

No problems on my end. Hope that information helps.


I don't think they can eliminate every working ISP on earth, m8 Laughing

Also, I pointed the CCP rep who answered my petition to this thread. He claimed there was no solid evidence. Hopefully this thread proves otherwise

Marso Neiliev
Posted - 2008.06.21 04:23:00 - [147]
 

I've been following this problem for a week now, and Zanpt is the first person who sounded like he knows what he's talking about.

This game is how many years old? And yet a problem like this had CCP this stymied for this long? I've played online games that were older with inferior all-around tech, and I've played games whose servers were located farther away from my home than Europe. I don't believe I've ever experienced connectivity problems like this, and if I did I know they didn't last this long. I don't want to bash CCP because I'm sure things are more complicated that this consumer understands, but I can honestly say I don't feel confident in their ability to handle problems - specifically problems that other younger online games have conquered so much more easily.

Dzadhuk
Posted - 2008.06.21 05:10:00 - [148]
 

Why has this not been posted in the news? Why aren't there regular pop-ups every two hours or so mentioning that there are major internet problems and combat etc may be compromised? I've lost ships needlessly and if I'd just been given some warning and not had to trawl here, it would have been useful.

danwa
Gallente
MicroFunks
Posted - 2008.06.21 05:46:00 - [149]
 

I had posted this in another thread but it applies here as well...

From the southern part of the US it goes to a company in Dallas called The Planet - which is one of the largest server company in the US then up to Chicago - NYC - cross the Atlantic to London then into a server in the Netherlands according to DNS Tools, a free site.

DNS Tools

Use this to lookup about anything you want but remember do the tracert through the command line in your computer then take the IP and trace the route out with the DNS Tools site.

My 2 cents - CCP has increased there membership by 10000 or more daily - before FW there were 26K players about anytime I logged on - now it is as high as 36K.

You got different servers with increased traffic over them - which means lag especially the servers where most of the "action" takes place.

Maybe the servers are not over taxed but lines going to them could be - I was disconnected 3 times in one hour - too much for FW or anything like that. Replacing ships due to lag and disconnects get expensive.

BTW - the "battle lag" is normal - if you ever played any "shooters" then you know to turn off all the extra stuff...but then 100 ship blobs firing at once would lag a Cray Computer.

However the disconnects are due to over taxed lines going to CCP since we didn't have this problem before FW....

Again this is just my opinion. So your milage may vary.

s/D.

Lucius Nahme
Posted - 2008.06.21 06:32:00 - [150]
 

failtrolls were fail Laughing

"I'm ignorant and ur all fanbois cause you refuse to believe my half baked accusations that its CCP's fault rather than the problems with the backbones being reported by experts" Laughing


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