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Jarkovii
Caldari
Team JAVELIN
Posted - 2008.06.18 05:01:00 - [1]
 

If a missile impacts a target, regardless of speed, It should do its intended "damage". If I have an interceptor charge say a kestrel of mine, and I fire a volley of light missiles at him and they impact. They should do more than just 0 lousy damage.

The draw back of having missiles chase down MWD users and to avail they hit and still do zero damage. Its a serious let down for a specific weapon system forcing people to look to gunnery for the instant hit benefit or abandoning their skirmish.

EW is not an alternative if the webber range is 12km max with out the bonus's of other ships radial benefits. And target painters barely increase the signature radius of small ships with the benefit being 30% bonus to a signature radius of 20? Whoopdeedoo for its use.

If its as easy to fit an MWD and orbit at range with enough speed to escape the explosion velocity then there should be tracking modifiers for missiles as well or force missiles to do damage to struck targets while allowing people to out run missiles.

This is no rant, its merely a suggestion and a realistic counter to the missile problem.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.18 10:47:00 - [2]
 

agreed, missiles are designed to hit

there is no logic or purpose behind thousand ton ships outrunning fast and lightweight missiles

boost all missile explosion velocities or introduce a module which gives +30% to explosion velocity, it should go in high slot or low slot.

this can't be...

mmm, i want a low grade implant set which will give me 45% to missile velocity and 45% to missile explosion velocity... just like the low grade snakes give you 45% speed increase.

seriously missiles must be fixed, they don't hit above 5 km/s...

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2008.06.18 11:30:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Jaketh Ivanes on 18/06/2008 11:31:42
Missiles don't impact on ships, they explode in proximity, meaning a light missile will detonate at 50m and a torpedo at 500m. A fast ship will be able to out run the blast wave and a small ships will not be hit by the full wave.
I think it is explained in the missile guide, but I know that is the explanation CCP have given us previously.

EDIT: Turrest don't hit over 5 km/s either, so I need an implant that increases turret tracking by 45% (or what ever amount is needed for my small turrets to hit Smile).

Matalino
Posted - 2008.06.18 16:38:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Matalino on 18/06/2008 16:44:22
Assuming no rigs on your Kestrel: in order for him to take zero damage from your light missiles, he needs to be moving atleast 5,625 m/s. The fastest that your missiles can go is 5,625 m/s.

Is it fair then that if he is moving faster than your missiles, he takes no damage from them, even if he is in range? Or are you suggesting that range be the only factor in deciding if missiles hit?

Math section:
Zero Damage Speed = 1,750 Explosion Velocity * 1.5 for Target Navigation Prediction V + 2 x 1,500 Explosion Velocity Falloff = 5,625 m/s
Max Missile Speed = 3,750 Base Speed * 1.5 for Missile Projection V = 5,625 m/s

BTW - as a counter to speed tanks there are ships with bonuses to web range to catch them at a distance and sensor dampeners to force them to engage closer in. There are other tactics and means available. But a 1v1 with a Kestrel vs Interceptor, the Kestrel shouldn't have a chance basic factors being equal.

Hatch
Minmatar
4 Marketeers
Rura-Penthe
Posted - 2008.06.18 19:33:00 - [5]
 

web range should be expanded from 10 to 15-30k, but that is another topic all together.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2008.06.18 21:27:00 - [6]
 

Naw, just give us webbing missiles. Stickybomb warheads for the win!

KingOzar
Caldari
Skill Training Completed
Posted - 2008.06.19 01:43:00 - [7]
 

If the missile can't reach the speed as the ship is going, why should it do damage to it? It can't fully catch up to it and have it's explosion hit it properly.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2008.06.19 01:57:00 - [8]
 

WTB: Game balance.

A ship outrunning light missiles in general would be moving too fast to be tracked by turrets anyhow.

Matrixcvd
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.19 13:03:00 - [9]
 

All you guys are doing is role playing

stop thinking about how you want missiles to work and start learning how they work

if you fight fast ships, you need to slow them down
if you are in a big ship you can tank and out Cap them
if you cant figure out which ships need to die first you dont WTB Game Balance, you WTB an FC

John McHauler
Posted - 2008.06.19 13:12:00 - [10]
 

The Problem is, people don't want to adapt to the situation.

Caldari already have it easy, It's easier to out-track Turrets then it is to outrun missiles. Not to mention you can still do DPS albeit light, when Jammed.

Have you tried interrupting their Orbit with Sharp Direction changes? You'd be surprised at how many people don't manually pilot their 'Ceptors.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.19 14:22:00 - [11]
 

some ships are speed tanked.

speed tanked.

tanked


speed tank is a form of defense. Just saying that that sorta defence shouldn't work because you don't have good ships to counter it isn't gonna work. these little ships do have their weaknesses, very low sensor strength means a single scorp can lock down up to 6 tacklers easy. and if you have a decent tackler or a ship with strong webs to hold it in place for a split second gunnery ships or even cruise missile ships can take it out easy.

Resamo
Posted - 2008.06.19 18:31:00 - [12]
 

The problem for me that i find very annoying is that if a ship is flying straight at me at full speed my missiles do nothing to him... how? he is not outrunnign them he is not doing anything?

And your turrets will hit, you have to worry about transversal speed... missile users have to worry about full speed. a target at 100km away can move fast enough to reduce my missile damage considerably and it takes a while for my missiles to get there. while a turret ship probably hits ok.

Yes missiles and turrets are differnt it just makes no sense that a ship going straight at my at full speed gets reduced damage to my missiles? how?

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.06.19 19:29:00 - [13]
 

It's obvious that missile explosion velocity (particularly heavy precision missile explosion velocity) needs boosting to be able to hit nano ships.

However, missiles should suffer a reduction in damage against nano ship just like turrets do. I'm ok with normal missiles being 100% useless agianst nano ships like they are now as long as precision missiles can reliably hit for decent (though still reduced) damage ships of the appropriate class.

Current situation means nanos go fast enough to be immune to every type of missile shot by everyone on the battlefield.

BhallSpawn
Posted - 2008.06.20 02:50:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: John McHauler
The Problem is, people don't want to adapt to the situation.

Caldari already have it easy, It's easier to out-track Turrets then it is to outrun missiles. Not to mention you can still do DPS albeit light, when Jammed.

Have you tried interrupting their Orbit with Sharp Direction changes? You'd be surprised at how many people don't manually pilot their 'Ceptors.




caldari have it easy?
sence when?
not in pvp my friend.

Merroki
Posted - 2008.06.20 04:26:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: John McHauler
The Problem is, people don't want to adapt to the situation.


Yep. The Problem is, people don't want to have to adapt to the situation when everyone else wakes up and balances the game. So, they try to prevent that from happening at all cost. Wink

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.20 06:54:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
Naw, just give us webbing missiles. Stickybomb warheads for the win!


i want cap neuting missiles

Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru
Posted - 2008.06.20 09:42:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Internet Knight on 20/06/2008 09:48:36
Originally by: Resamo
The problem for me that i find very annoying is that if a ship is flying straight at me at full speed my missiles do nothing to him... how? he is not outrunnign them he is not doing anything?
That's the problem in a nutshell.

There's something called radial velocity. That is, the speed at which something is increasing or decreasing distance from yourself. Missiles' explosion velocity should be compared against a ship's radial velocity of the missile (compared against the target), not the velocity of the missile.

So, if the target's radial velocity is high (the target is moving away from the missile), damage is reduced. Whereas, if the target's radial velocity is low (the target is moving towards the missile), damage is increased.

This would allow you to still do damage to something orbiting you (but not full damage, as the ship orbiting you is likely not going towards you full on). It would allow you to do full damage to someone that's coming towards you full on. And it would allow you to do no damage to someone in full retreat.

Problem solved. Get to work, CCP.


ninjaedit

Angelonico
Helljumpers
Posted - 2008.06.20 09:58:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Angelonico on 20/06/2008 09:59:24


Originally by: Typhado3
some ships are speed tanked.

speed tanked.

tanked




Thread over.

Every other race has to web/neut the nanotarget somehow in order to hit, so do you. Stop whining.


Ulstan
Posted - 2008.06.20 14:48:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 20/06/2008 14:51:17
Edited by: Ulstan on 20/06/2008 14:48:24
Quote:
Every other race has to web/neut the nanotarget somehow in order to hit


Wrong.

Maybe in 1vs1 when he's orbiting you and you decided to leave your ACs, pulses, and drones behind.

Anyway, even assuming you were correct, we'd have a problem

Webbing is a minmatar specialty, minmatar have the best nanos.
Neuting is an amarr specialty, amarr have some superb nanos.
Gallente have drones, which allows them a superb nano in the ishtar.
Caldari neither have good nano boats of their own, nor good counters to them.

Grim Vandal
Burn Proof
Posted - 2008.06.20 17:25:00 - [20]
 

missiles are totally fukced up in this game ...

Live with it, there are things even devs cant change.

The MAIN reason why it is so difficult to get "eve-missiles" working like a missile is:

Arrow caldari
an all out missile ship in a space mmo is PURE FAILURE

Arrow destiny
eves physic engine cant handle a miss


The easiest thing would be to remove the caldari race and tada missiles suddenly work in their intended niche role. But since caldari use all out missile ships which NEED to be balanced to gunnery ships = BIG HUGE FAIL


I remember those days when TomB tried his best to balance missiles. They once did full dmg on impact. Yep one torpedo was enough to kill even 10 frigs (aoe ftw). TomB tried to let missiles MISS THEIR TARGET which is NOT AT ALL POSSIBLE in eve. (reason destiny sucks). The conclusion he came to is the current HORRIBLE dmg forumla which "emulates missile behavier".

So missiles cant AND never will be fixed in eve.


clicking f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 to shoot torpedos non stop is AGAIN totally fukced up imo.


The torpedo eg. should be useable by every BS but limited to say 0 to maximum of 3 launchers. AND the torpedo should more work like the current bombs do. Caldari would then simply be the race who uses more launchers but giving a ship launchers only = awful

I am really glad caldari get their ass kicked in FW. They need to die cuz their imbaness needs to vanish.

btw. im caldari specced and playing since beta, all missile skills at lv 5 of course Laughing


Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2008.06.20 18:00:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Slade Hoo on 20/06/2008 18:03:51
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 20/06/2008 18:03:28
if missiles get their explosion velocity boosted, turrets have to be boosted for tracking speed too. but that would be a great imbalance...imagine ceptors with activated MWD orbiting will die to medium gunsShocked.
missiles depend from velocity and signature radius. turrets depend on angular velocity and signature radius. Its a very good concept of CCP. If you don't want to be affected by speed itself, just use guns...it's that easy.

btw. Target painters are awesome

Raven isnt a "missile only" ship. it has 4 turret hardpoints

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.06.20 18:31:00 - [22]
 

IMO, the only generic missile change that might be interesting would be to increase the falloff on explosion velocity.

Currently it's at 1500 m/s, meaning that a missile with an explosion velocity of 1500 m/s does 50% damage (sig excepted) to a target travelling at 3000 m/s, and almost 0% damage to a target travelling at 4500 m/s. This is a very blunt mechanism - over a speed range of just 3000 m/s missiles go from dealing full damage, to no damage. A speed range of 3000 m/s is nothing in modern Eve combat.

Even a small change to, say 2000 m/s would be interesting, increasing somewhat the range of speeds that a ship could take some damage, while preventing situations where a ship might receive "too much" damage, as might be caused by an across-the-board increase in explosion velocities. A more substantial increase in explosion velocity falloff could be even be accompanied by a general decrease in base explosion velocities, making the whole relationship between missiles and speed rather more forgiving on both sides.

Of course, the devil is the detail...Wink

S'pht'Kr h'Narhl
Posted - 2008.06.21 03:19:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Internet Knight
Missiles' explosion velocity should be compared against a ship's radial velocity of the missile (compared against the target), not the velocity of the missile.
I think this might work...

Italian Wedding
Soup Of The Day
Posted - 2008.06.21 04:02:00 - [24]
 

BUMP. I have been saying Missiles need aa explosion velocity buff for a LONG time now. Buff explosion velocity!

I SoStoned
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.21 12:51:00 - [25]
 

A: Quadruple the speed on rockets and their explosion velocity & radius.
B: Double the speed on Light, Heavy, & HAM missiles & increase their explosion velocity/radius.
C: Increase the explosion radius on Torps & Cruise.
D: Remove the stacked nerfs on T2 missiles (or increase their damage by 15% to make them preferable and viable alternatives to faction). Heck, do that for all T2 ammo.
E: Cause missiles to have a mass effect... explosions rock the impacted ship. Big ship hit by small missile - not much affect. Small ship hit by big missile - gets 'bumped'. Not enough to prevent aligning, but at high velocity enough to throw an orbit wide.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2008.06.21 13:25:00 - [26]
 

old issue, still needs help

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.21 13:30:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: James Lyrus on 21/06/2008 13:32:21
Originally by: Angelonico
Edited by: Angelonico on 20/06/2008 09:59:24


Originally by: Typhado3
some ships are speed tanked.

speed tanked.

tanked




Thread over.

Every other race has to web/neut the nanotarget somehow in order to hit, so do you. Stop whining.




Tanks don't typically include 100% immunity to anything. If you can clear 5km/sec, you can have 200 heavy misssile ships firing at you, and not have to worry. Spread out some turret ships though, and you'll be able to hit the nanoer.

And actually, a MWD has about the same effect on tracking as an afterburner does, in terms of tracking - the signature bloom offsets the difficulty hitting it somewhat, where this isn't the case with missiles.

Edit: Mostly happy with how missiles are. Would like to see precision heavys become actually vaguely relevant given speeds of cruisers. Their 1000m/sec explosion velocity is the same as that of precision cruise, and a mere 250m/sec faster than their 'normal' or faction alternatives.

Sentinal One
Posted - 2008.06.22 05:12:00 - [28]
 

Allow Large, Simple Torpedo's to exist still but limit them, and replace the other highslots with a special highspeed, higher damage forum of rockets. Higher in damage then a Ham but lower then a cruise missle.. Make the speed freaking spooky enought it will keep vaga's out of 30km range and bring back the torpedo slow arse, long range attack. I know.. It sounds like the best of both worlds.. But I guess we can put the " Cruise rockets " as a longer reload then turrets. 8s - 9s

theteck
Posted - 2008.06.23 00:23:00 - [29]
 

you are near or far the missle hit ...

my hybrid gun cant do it

missile to good lowering the missile hit its good


FORD ESC0RT
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.06.23 00:42:00 - [30]
 

It would be nice to be able to kill those super annoying fast tacklers in my drake. right now it's Inty > drake. There's something wrong with this. bump


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