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pincalo
Caldari
Ihatalo Navy
Ihatalo Cartel Navy
Posted - 2008.06.17 01:40:00 - [1]
 

Could a dev please read this and respond as soon as they can? Thanks. I am a blind gamer, who is sick of playing console games and wants to start playing Eve with my husband, who's account I am using to post on the forum. The only problem is, my screen reading program (jaws) does not read any of the things in the eve client to me. Would it be possible for the game to be somehow altered to allow interfacing with screen readers?

KingOzar
Caldari
Skill Training Completed
Posted - 2008.06.17 01:42:00 - [2]
 

/signed.

Not to be insulting, but how on earth can you play games blind? It would seem so hard. Props to you though, I wouldn't be able to do it.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.06.17 01:45:00 - [3]
 

I can't even imagine how Eve could be reduced to a text based format, for a reader to interpret... without losing a rediculous amount of gameplay.

There is just too much visual interaction IMO for something like that.

pincalo
Caldari
Ihatalo Navy
Ihatalo Cartel Navy
Posted - 2008.06.17 01:49:00 - [4]
 

lol no worries, I get that question all the time. I play console fighting games like Soul Caliber, by listening to the different sounds. I didn't put this in my first post, but my idea for eve would be some kind of tab system, where one could control tab between windows, and within the window, you could tab around and press space or enter whenever you wanted to do something.

KingOzar
Caldari
Skill Training Completed
Posted - 2008.06.17 02:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: pincalo
lol no worries, I get that question all the time. I play console fighting games like Soul Caliber, by listening to the different sounds. I didn't put this in my first post, but my idea for eve would be some kind of tab system, where one could control tab between windows, and within the window, you could tab around and press space or enter whenever you wanted to do something.


Wow, that must make you pretty good at it then.

Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.06.17 05:30:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Kaiden Exeider on 17/06/2008 05:31:10
Zat˘ichi the blind swordsman

Most likely the most dangerous foe you can encounter

Zat˘ichi

I know its fictional but I know a few swordsman that are very much like this. It justs goes to show you what a blind man can do with enough sheer power of will and skill.

Shish Shish Shaw!!

/signed.


VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
Posted - 2008.06.17 05:31:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: VJ Maverick on 17/06/2008 05:31:34
I think pincalo might be an actual Jedi.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2008.06.17 05:38:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: VJ Maverick
I think pincalo might be an actual Jedi.


Or a macro mission runner :P

But yes, at least an accessible interface that can abide by the usual Mac OS accessibility guidelines would be nice. Or perhaps the ability to map all actions to keypresses, so the Z-Board guys can get into the action with an EVE-specific keyboard layout.

EVE via gamepad?

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.06.17 05:50:00 - [9]
 

I am not sure it would be possible at all to make EVE accessible to a completely blind person. With so much information being passed over to us from the game via visual means - and thus requiring sometimes a split second reaction from the player.

I am not talking about PVP here, which is obviously would be close to impossible for someone with severe visual impairment, but even such a simple thing as Belt Rats, and the unscrupulous players who steal stuff from other players, and all that other stuff might be just a bit much for a conversion program.

In any event, if developers find a way of doing something like this, however unlikely, I am all for it and support it.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.17 08:39:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker
I am not sure it would be possible at all to make EVE accessible to a completely blind person. With so much information being passed over to us from the game via visual means - and thus requiring sometimes a split second reaction from the player.

I am not talking about PVP here, which is obviously would be close to impossible for someone with severe visual impairment, but even such a simple thing as Belt Rats, and the unscrupulous players who steal stuff from other players, and all that other stuff might be just a bit much for a conversion program.

In any event, if developers find a way of doing something like this, however unlikely, I am all for it and support it.


I don't know, with the sounds on there is a lot of information being passed on.

I don't even need to watch to hear what the weapon system is that is firing at me. And with other software I'm sure it is possible to let someone mine in high sec or something else that's not PvP.

Even mission-running could be done with software so I'm sure it could be done.

Sareem
Amarr
InterSun Freelance
The Forsaken.
Posted - 2008.06.17 13:24:00 - [11]
 

A friend of mine, due to surgery to his right hand, had to play eve with his left hand and had some trouble with it (not even close to the troubles a blind person would face).
One of the things he asked me was if there's any shortcut keys to cycle between targeted foes and objects in the overview. Some simple things that would make life much easier on people with special needs.

So yes,

/Signed


Dmian
Gallente
Gallenterrorisme
Posted - 2008.06.17 21:31:00 - [12]
 

Hi pincalo's wife (laugh out loud.)
My name's Damian. I'm a graphic designer from Spain, and I try to get in touch a lot with accessibility (no friends or family with visual impairment, just a personal interest in the field.) In fact, I do a lot of accessibility at work.
If I'm not wrong, the problem is that Jaws uses the Trident engine (the engine used to display everything inside Internet Explorer) to read out loud most of the web content.
The Eve client, on the other side, is a "C" application wrapped inside DirectX, so I don't know if Jaws can read text inside DirectX, but I believe not.
Inside the game there's a teaching drone called "Aura". Aura's voice guides you through most of the tutorials and is the same voice you hear saying "skill training complete" when the character ends its skill training.
Now, I believe this voice is pre-recorded. But, if CCP decided to use voice synthesis instead of pre-recordings, this game entity is, conceptually, a great interface for a blind gamer. Just make Aura Read the overview or parts of the interface and you could play as any other player, even do some player versus player! (imagine Aura saying: "three serpentis pirates on sight, serpentis protector approaching at 18 kilometers, serpentis protector #2 approaching at 16 kilometers, serpentis guard approaching at 14 kilometers.")
But, given the lack of programmers and the tons of work that the regular CCP programmers seem to have, I find it difficult that they can spare time and personnel to such a task.
Maybe if you have the backup of an association (like we have ONCE here in Spain) that can talk to CCP and offer some support to that kind of task, I believe it could be made a reality.
It might be the first Massively multiplayer online role-playing game to have such a feature and it will be a huge marketing point. And also, it would fit perfectly inside the Eve world (it's just Aura!)
So, I hope that CCP take this petition into consideration. Or at least think about it.
Kind regards.

P.S: I hope I wrote this message so that Jaws can read it properly, I don't have a copy on my machine to test it.

Sir Atkinson
Mercenary Forces
Posted - 2008.06.17 22:07:00 - [13]
 

If you are indeed blind (which I must say that I tend to believe, since pretending to be visually handicapped on a forum would either be distasteful or just 13-year old perverted), I sympathise with your situation.
However I don't believe that the game designers should go any extraordinary lengths to ensure the gaming experience of such a small minority in gaming as the blind. It would probably not be financially viable.

I must say that I am impressed by your gaming skills though...

pincalo
Caldari
Ihatalo Navy
Ihatalo Cartel Navy
Posted - 2008.06.18 00:06:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Dmian
Hi pincalo's wife (laugh out loud.)
My name's Damian. I'm a graphic designer from Spain, and I try to get in touch a lot with accessibility (no friends or family with visual impairment, just a personal interest in the field.) In fact, I do a lot of accessibility at work.
If I'm not wrong, the problem is that Jaws uses the Trident engine (the engine used to display everything inside Internet Explorer) to read out loud most of the web content.
The Eve client, on the other side, is a "C" application wrapped inside DirectX, so I don't know if Jaws can read text inside DirectX, but I believe not.
Inside the game there's a teaching drone called "Aura". Aura's voice guides you through most of the tutorials and is the same voice you hear saying "skill training complete" when the character ends its skill training.
Now, I believe this voice is pre-recorded. But, if CCP decided to use voice synthesis instead of pre-recordings, this game entity is, conceptually, a great interface for a blind gamer. Just make Aura Read the overview or parts of the interface and you could play as any other player, even do some player versus player! (imagine Aura saying: "three serpentis pirates on sight, serpentis protector approaching at 18 kilometers, serpentis protector #2 approaching at 16 kilometers, serpentis guard approaching at 14 kilometers.")
But, given the lack of programmers and the tons of work that the regular CCP programmers seem to have, I find it difficult that they can spare time and personnel to such a task.
Maybe if you have the backup of an association (like we have ONCE here in Spain) that can talk to CCP and offer some support to that kind of task, I believe it could be made a reality.
It might be the first Massively multiplayer online role-playing game to have such a feature and it will be a huge marketing point. And also, it would fit perfectly inside the Eve world (it's just Aura!)
So, I hope that CCP take this petition into consideration. Or at least think about it.
Kind regards.

P.S: I hope I wrote this message so that Jaws can read it properly, I don't have a copy on my machine to test it.
jaws read it just fine, thanks. See, this is why I wish I live in europe! grrrr! oh well, that's our plan anyway. But that's a great idea, and if I did have that kind of back up, I would absolutely persue it.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.06.18 00:19:00 - [15]
 

I still think there's far too much happening in game, for it to be converted.

Especially if Aura, the voice of the computer, were to announce all the events in game. Yes, she could tell you there are three targets. She could tell you the distance they are initially sighted at. And then she'll begin to stutter as they approach at 200 m/s. Then you activate a module, and she announces what module you've activated and what it's against. She'd also have to tell you what your shield, armor, hull, capacitor, ammo... levels are at. Otherwise you'd run out of bullets, drain your cap dry, fly off in some random direction when your current "Orbit" target dies and your ship wanders. And then...

Like I said, it might be possible to convert ~some~ of the game into more textual or audio formats, but overall I think it's a lost cause.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.18 00:27:00 - [16]
 

/signed

A large portion of getting information is done via the overview which is text based anyway, main problem I see is how it would convey name, distance, ship type, etc. for about 20 targets on the overview within a decent amount of time. Search and overview probably (eg. "there are 14 targets, 4 bs's ......")

pincalo
Caldari
Ihatalo Navy
Ihatalo Cartel Navy
Posted - 2008.06.18 00:40:00 - [17]
 

Maybe the overview could be adapted so you could use the arrow keys or tab around it. And, maybe to get to the overview, their could be a shortcut key like alt O or something like that.

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2008.06.18 04:15:00 - [18]
 

Im sorry but I'm with Marcus on this one. While making EVE accessible to visualy impered would be a nice idea I just dont think its possible. There is simply too much going on to read aloud, and its constantly changing. A typical mission spawn contains around 40 rats that is constantly moving, a belt (for mining) contain 40+ rocks, for pvp its even worse; a small engagement is usually nano so its around 10-30 ships all moving at 6-15 km/second in different directions a fleet battle can contain as many as 700 ships. Before Aurora or Jaws or any other talking program has finished describing 2 things the entire scene will have changed. Within 5 seconds you would be dead Im afraid since your information of your surroundings isnt updating at 1/10 of the speed as it does for us who can see.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2008.06.18 04:48:00 - [19]
 

I had a blind gaming friend some years ago. The speed of his voice on the computer was almost totally incomprehensable to me. It's amazing, puts most auctioneers to shame.

That being said a blind person can interface with a lot of information. With the new overview and brackets some of the most critical tools are already in place. Since you can greatly affect what information you want the game to feed you.

You would then need to have settings for your voice notificafions. Instead of Armor at 40%-30%-20% you could have your warnings at preset events. So a warning for new items on the overview, target locks. Probably a notice if one of the ships near you is using a sensor booster. Then graduated stuff. "Warning Shield dammage." "Warning Shields failing." for when the shield recharge is inadaquate for the incomming dammage. That way your tank tells you when it can't keep up. Aproach, Avoid, Orbit commands all work on targets and that's usually what you want.

What EVE doesn't have is a way to get hotkeys into the overview to allow targeting or priorities. Still macro monkies manage to farm, a moderately complex action, with no human presence. With an alert human at the helm I suspect that a series of macros could be written that would allow spooky levels of game play.

That being said, if you can't get CCP to write the code to enable play, I sugest contacting your macro capable programing friends and seeing if you can get a rough set of macros that should work.

Once you have the programs, DO NOT USE THEM. Contact CCP directly through their customer service and let them know what you are trying to accomplish, then give them copies of the software you've written. Explain you are looking for accesability not an exploit and I'm sure you'll find them willing to make allowances on their usuall macro policy.

Hopefully we'll then have blind pirates showing us up at the gates and dominating FW.

-Galan

Dmian
Gallente
Gallenterrorisme
Posted - 2008.06.18 14:16:00 - [20]
 

Well, macros are a thorny issue really. You can't tell from a macro-miner or a macro-driven client for visually impaired people.
I believe the best solution might be a custom client, developed by CCP and an association, with speech synthesis and many configurations, like "warn me when my shields drop below 20%", etc.
Also, for visually impaired people (remember, not all of them are blind) most 3D effects are useless, what could be better is a semi-3D interface with large, clear icons with lots of constrast and large fonts. But of course, something that also makes sense to people without vision problems, so they can help to configure the client if they wish (smile.)
I think that could be doable, given the propper support of an association and the good will of CCP to command such a task.
I hope we can hear something about this soon.

Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
Posted - 2008.06.19 08:12:00 - [21]
 

While I'm all in favor of this idea, seeing that even the colorblind mod that's been in the talks a year ago is not available yet, I doubt this will happen anytime soon.

Thunderbird Anthares
ISK Reliability Inc.
Inver Brass
Posted - 2008.06.19 08:24:00 - [22]
 

i really admire you,being able to play such games while not actually seeing the screen
EVE is kind of complicated, maybe too complicated to simplify it to such devices, but if this is even a bit possible, i support the idea

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.06.19 09:56:00 - [23]
 

Whilst at the theoretical level, I'm all in favour of this, and mildly sceptical/curious as to how best to represent a 3D graphical user interface into text or voice, the important thing here to note is that CCP is a business.

The best way for you to get CCP to recognise the needs of the blind, or indeed the colour-blind, beyond the sledgehammer of discrimination legislation, is to show them what market share this opens up. Sad to say, the world of capitalism does not tend to cater to minorities well.

It's also worth noting that quite a bit of the in-game world changes actually does have a textual output. It's in the game logs. It doesn't cover everything by a long shot, but this could be extended and have a log reader process the output. This is also conveniently client side, thus not raising any ugly lag issues.

Dasfry
Caldari
Demio's Corporation
United Stellar Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.19 11:48:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares
i really admire you,being able to play such games while not actually seeing the screen
EVE is kind of complicated, maybe too complicated to simplify it to such devices, but if this is even a bit possible, i support the idea


I so disagree with what you just said.

It seems as thought many players are making the assumption you need everything, every little detail read aloud. Which is completely not the case.

I'll give you a good example of how a voice operated software could work.

Get yourself a friend, and lots of patience.
Set your friend down at the computer, then sit near him or her while facing away from the computer.

Next control Eve, through your friend only using game sounds and their voice to inform you of whats going on.

Next come to realize that your friend will not be reading every little damn detail, but instead will be summarize whats going on. Giving only details related to what you ask for.

next have a software accessibility program mimic what your friend is doing.

bingo presto you have a accessibility assist program for the blind.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.06.19 12:24:00 - [25]
 

Right... so all we need is to invent an advanced Artificial Intelligence. One that can understand the game mechanics as well as the personality intracasies of players. That way, it'll know right off the bat what information would be relevant to any given situation, and make sure to only bother telling you those things.

Your friend may have some idea of how to play the game. They'll be able to decide for themselves whether or not you would care about the next group of rats in the distance that aren't aggro'd yet. He'll be able to silently monitor your ammo and Cap, and estimate how long to wait before telling you you're running low based on consumption.
That's because THEY'RE A REAL PERSON.

Tarison
Gallente
PezCo - Ice Services
Posted - 2008.06.19 14:44:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Tarison on 19/06/2008 14:47:18
Edited by: Tarison on 19/06/2008 14:46:49
This is the most intriguing topic I've read in a very long time.

Eve space combat can be reduced to purely text.

Objects and how they relate to your ship.
It can really be expressed as tables. You could trade every bit of 3D for a large detailed overview.

The only thing missing for full IF(Instrument flight)is a heading readout and an xyz position read out.
Im not really sure how you would express the volume of information with just voice. Maybe a tactile and auditory output system?
I think this would be something that would work for eve.(Not sure how to replace double clicking on empty space).

I wouldn't call a lack of a client or interface for disabled persons discrimination though. Its not always realistic thing to ask for.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2008.06.19 14:49:00 - [27]
 

i doubt this is gonna happen... there is more profit in enhancing the game to get more customers then in making it accessible to blind people.

Opening it up to third party companies who specialize in this might be an option, but i dont know enough about this....

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.06.19 15:54:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Marcus Gideon
I still think there's far too much happening in game, for it to be converted.

Especially if Aura, the voice of the computer, were to announce all the events in game. Yes, she could tell you there are three targets. She could tell you the distance they are initially sighted at. And then she'll begin to stutter as they approach at 200 m/s. Then you activate a module, and she announces what module you've activated and what it's against. She'd also have to tell you what your shield, armor, hull, capacitor, ammo... levels are at. Otherwise you'd run out of bullets, drain your cap dry, fly off in some random direction when your current "Orbit" target dies and your ship wanders. And then...

Like I said, it might be possible to convert ~some~ of the game into more textual or audio formats, but overall I think it's a lost cause.

Tyaleia
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.19 16:12:00 - [29]
 

Your not thinking outside the box. You have primarily two other senses that can transfer information: tactile, and auditory.

Your overview could be represented by 'tones' - the louder, the closer. Different tone types (square wave vs sine wave) based on hostility etc, different pitches for each different contact. Short pulse of vibration on right index finger, first joint - weapon one just fired. It goes on and on...

Zirconium Blade
Ass Pounding Space Monkeys
Posted - 2008.06.19 17:12:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Zirconium Blade on 19/06/2008 17:12:55
Obviously CCP needs to build a pod for the lady to interface with so she can play EvE.

Edit: Grammar


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