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Cpt Jagermeister
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.06.23 22:05:00 - [91]
 

So sick of this coming up. Wish ccp would say something ffs.

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.24 04:02:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Valkorsia
Don't nerf nano, boost ALL race interceptors so they can't be outrun by nano HACs. Problem solved.


Average speed of a T2, polyed HAC (bar the Vagabond) is 3.5km/s-4km/s. Which of your interceptors were they outrunning again?

The problem is most likely on your end if this is a regular occurrence.

Reash
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.24 09:24:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Valkorsia
Don't nerf nano, boost ALL race interceptors so they can't be outrun by nano HACs. Problem solved.


Average speed of a T2, polyed HAC (bar the Vagabond) is 3.5km/s-4km/s. Which of your interceptors were they outrunning again?

The problem is most likely on your end if this is a regular occurrence.


The problem is more that people think 3.5km/s to 4km/s (and beyond) is far faster than what a cruiser should be acieving.

I happen to disagree with my alliance mate on this one, i do not think the difference in speed between interceptors and nano hacs is the problem, interceptors are fine, it is just the nano-hacs which are too fast.

Dragonzchilde
Minmatar
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.06.24 10:38:00 - [94]
 

stop whining about nano's and learn to fly rapiers

Reash
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.24 12:07:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Dragonzchilde
stop whining about nano's and learn to fly rapiers


The fact that you name a specific ship for combating them only serves to further proove the point that they need a re-balance.

Matrixcvd
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.24 13:23:00 - [96]
 

No need to change nanos, they are a great compliment to internet spaceships, work as intended.

need good FCs, good pilots and you will have good fun, regardless of whether you missiles can hit a target traveling faster than you sorry pale, just cause you can't kill something cause you fail, doesn't mean the rest of eve is having the same problem


Reash
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.24 13:28:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Matrixcvd
No need to change nanos, they are a great compliment to internet spaceships, work as intended.

need good FCs, good pilots and you will have good fun, regardless of whether you missiles can hit a target traveling faster than you sorry pale, just cause you can't kill something cause you fail, doesn't mean the rest of eve is having the same problem




We have actually have developed a very sucessful stratagy for killing nano cruisers...but again, doesnt make them balanced.

But as with all nano killing stratgy's i can think of, ours requires the use of specific ships with specific bonus's...and that is the problem.

Zorok
Cosmic Cimmerians
Usurper.
Posted - 2008.06.24 14:00:00 - [98]
 

+1
I'm sick of dealing with tanked Vagabonds..they shield tank their mids and speed tank their highs and can keep up with interceptors. While I have no qualms with them being the fastest ship in their class, they should not be able to outrun frigates and interceptors.

I'm sorry, no cruiser should have the run of the battlefield. No drones can hold them down- a Muninn is the only thing that can take them. It's gotten to the point where I have seen Vagabond-only fleets looking for gank kills.

Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.24 14:08:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
Edited by: Wrayeth on 21/06/2008 16:47:43
Anyway, I need to get to bed. I really started to ramble there at the end, and I apologize. I may come back and clean this up and provide more supporting information tomorrow if I'm not too frazzled by the time I get off work.

TL;DR

Nanos are overpowered. They make other ships obsolete, encourage blobbing, and destroy the normal PvP their proponents say they encourage.

Reduce the max speeds achievable and you will bring them into balance, though this may require a rebalance to the Minmatar recons and EAS as well.

EDIT: Folks, if you support one of these threads, there's this leetle button you're supposed to click in between the text box and the area where you select your character to post with when replying... Cool


Posting in a 'pitch and fork' thread that gives no ideea suggestions except for 'i've had enough and i'm not going to take this anymore'.

Lucias Trask
Divine Power.
Posted - 2008.06.26 00:36:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Lucias Trask
1) Killing Vagas/All nano ships.
-Use a Rapier/Huginn to slow it down.
-Use a Curse to suck its cap dry, cant go MWD with no cap.
-get a few interceptors on it (Crows are really fast) using a falcon to jam it, and slow it down, then blow it up.



Yes, yes. To fix the problems, just train a certain ship. Exactly what a 'sandbox' game should do, force you down a certain path. Genius.


Pay attention closely because this is complicated.

I trained a long time to get my nano ship as fast as it is. I spend upwards of 300mil on each of my nano ships.
The list of ships that can kill my nano ship... happen to take the same amount of training and time it took me to get it.

If you want to stop a T2 cruiser with ANYTHING not T2, then your delusional unless I screw up when Im flying it.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.06.26 01:30:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Lucias Trask
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Lucias Trask
1) Killing Vagas/All nano ships.
-Use a Rapier/Huginn to slow it down.
-Use a Curse to suck its cap dry, cant go MWD with no cap.
-get a few interceptors on it (Crows are really fast) using a falcon to jam it, and slow it down, then blow it up.



Yes, yes. To fix the problems, just train a certain ship. Exactly what a 'sandbox' game should do, force you down a certain path. Genius.


Pay attention closely because this is complicated.

I trained a long time to get my nano ship as fast as it is. I spend upwards of 300mil on each of my nano ships.
The list of ships that can kill my nano ship... happen to take the same amount of training and time it took me to get it.

If you want to stop a T2 cruiser with ANYTHING not T2, then your delusional unless I screw up when Im flying it.

Parsival
Minmatar
The Avalon Foundation
The Drift.
Posted - 2008.06.26 03:17:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Reash
We have actually have developed a very sucessful stratagy for killing nano cruisers...but again, doesnt make them balanced.

But as with all nano killing stratgy's i can think of, ours requires the use of specific ships with specific bonus's...and that is the problem.


How inconveniant to be required to use alternative tactics and (shock horror!) change your fittings occasionally Rolling Eyes

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade

Posted - 2008.06.26 11:37:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 26/06/2008 11:42:34
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 26/06/2008 11:39:11
Supporting for examination. I don't want a complete reduction as some are advocating, I'd like some proper thought as to the problem and solution. Goumindong & Marcus Gideon have put forward some interesting notions from which something could be spun.

People are busy arguing about 0.0 causing nano-ships. Well sure, and if nano-ships only worked in 0.0 this would be ok. Trouble is they work everywhere else too, where the counters that people propose often are not as simple to muster.

Finally, whilst there is some credence to the notion that 'your insured 20M Raven shouldn't be able to kill my 250M uninsured Vaga' this isn't really valid logic, given CCP's continual statement 'new players should be just as capable as old players'. New players lack cash and SP, and therefore arguing that the only counter to nano's is to get out of PvP until you've trained & earned more is not a valid one.

(tongue-in-cheek) Either that, or we get the truth out, which is that older players are vastly more effective and there's no point in PvP and everyone less than a year old should just get back to high-sec NPC corps and stop wasting time and giving free kills away Razz

Originally by: Lucias Trask
If you want to stop a T2 cruiser with ANYTHING not T2, then your delusional unless I screw up when Im flying it.


I think this proves the entire point of the need for a re-balance. Since when has anyone ever tried to argue that nothing but a carrier can kill a carrier, or a battleship kill a battleship? Next we'll be arguing that frigates must not be able to kill titans Rolling Eyes

Reash
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.26 11:54:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Parsival
Originally by: Reash
We have actually have developed a very sucessful stratagy for killing nano cruisers...but again, doesnt make them balanced.

But as with all nano killing stratgy's i can think of, ours requires the use of specific ships with specific bonus's...and that is the problem.


How inconveniant to be required to use alternative tactics and (shock horror!) change your fittings occasionally Rolling Eyes


Thats the point i suppose, catching nanos does not require a change of fittings...it requires a change of ship to a limited selection that are sucessful only because they have a specific bonus.

Lucias Trask
Divine Power.
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:02:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 26/06/2008 11:42:34

Originally by: Lucias Trask
If you want to stop a T2 cruiser with ANYTHING not T2, then your delusional unless I screw up when Im flying it.


I think this proves the entire point of the need for a re-balance. Since when has anyone ever tried to argue that nothing but a carrier can kill a carrier, or a battleship kill a battleship? Next we'll be arguing that frigates must not be able to kill titans Rolling Eyes


Thats completely flawed. Should my crappy noob ship be able to take a battleship? Can ONE battle ship take on and kill a carrier? Then why should it be that way with nano ships?

All I am saying is it is pretty easy to stop them, a decent interceptor pilot can stop nanos real fast, intys take what.... 3 months to get into from the day you start playing the game? But should your T1 destroyer be able to stop me? No. Should your big slow BS be able to kill me every time I show up? No.

Just because it takes a certain type of ship to stop a nano, doesn't mean its broken. It means you have to train a certain type of ship. Wow.. imagine that. You dont have an I WIN button
against my nano but either have to use tactics, a few certain ships, or just accept that I will be able to escape.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:11:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Lucias Trask
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 26/06/2008 11:42:34

Originally by: Lucias Trask
If you want to stop a T2 cruiser with ANYTHING not T2, then your delusional unless I screw up when Im flying it.


I think this proves the entire point of the need for a re-balance. Since when has anyone ever tried to argue that nothing but a carrier can kill a carrier, or a battleship kill a battleship? Next we'll be arguing that frigates must not be able to kill titans Rolling Eyes


Thats completely flawed. Should my crappy noob ship be able to take a battleship? Can ONE battle ship take on and kill a carrier? Then why should it be that way with nano ships?

All I am saying is it is pretty easy to stop them, a decent interceptor pilot can stop nanos real fast, intys take what.... 3 months to get into from the day you start playing the game? But should your T1 destroyer be able to stop me? No. Should your big slow BS be able to kill me every time I show up? No.

Just because it takes a certain type of ship to stop a nano, doesn't mean its broken. It means you have to train a certain type of ship. Wow.. imagine that. You dont have an I WIN button
against my nano but either have to use tactics, a few certain ships, or just accept that I will be able to escape.



Actually no an interceptor pilot has very little chance of catching them unless they to also nano setup. Which you'll find if you do that your inty goes pop pretty quick.

It's a simple fix really. Change the agility mod and force larger ships to take MUCH longer to accelerate and then change the mod on webs so that larger ships slow down that much faster.

Then your little ships can still coast out of web range everynow and then like intended, and your larger nano BS and HAC nanos, etc.. have a much harder time escaping a good web.

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:20:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Lucias Trask
Thats completely flawed. Should my crappy noob ship be able to take a battleship? Can ONE battle ship take on and kill a carrier? Then why should it be that way with nano ships?


On the contrary - my retort to your original flawed logic was perfectly fine. You're now changing your tune that it's all about 1vs1, which is not the point at all.

It remains the case that for virtually every ship in existence, a group of other lesser ships can go take that ship down. It rarely matters what ships those are, just as long as you bring enough. Such fights when committed to are decided prior to actual combat by fittings and numbers and skill. Nanoships by comparison turn this on its head, allowing the pilot to dictate what engagements they fight, and to run away from those that are unfavourable; conversely anti-nano gangs must set up specifically for them, with specific skills and setups, and may even find themselves at a disadvantage because of it.

CCP stated their reasons for changing the WCS restrictions as wanting pilots to commit to fights. It seems reasonable to continue this line of thought rather than have a double standard - or will you argue that only the rich and old should be able to not commit to fights?

Put simply, whilst I empathise with the notion that says you've spent time and money on your nanoship, that is not a valid argument. If it were, we could go back to WoW and have levels, where time spent in the game determines how effective you are at combat. I don't think that that is healthy for EVE.

Nephilim Xeno
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade

Posted - 2008.06.26 12:31:00 - [108]
 

/signed

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:58:00 - [109]
 

Woot, a nerf nano thread. How unusual.

Lucias Trask
Divine Power.
Posted - 2008.06.27 04:08:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Lucias Trask
Thats completely flawed. Should my crappy noob ship be able to take a battleship? Can ONE battle ship take on and kill a carrier? Then why should it be that way with nano ships?


On the contrary - my retort to your original flawed logic was perfectly fine. You're now changing your tune that it's all about 1vs1, which is not the point at all.

It remains the case that for virtually every ship in existence, a group of other lesser ships can go take that ship down. It rarely matters what ships those are, just as long as you bring enough. Such fights when committed to are decided prior to actual combat by fittings and numbers and skill. Nanoships by comparison turn this on its head, allowing the pilot to dictate what engagements they fight, and to run away from those that are unfavourable; conversely anti-nano gangs must set up specifically for them, with specific skills and setups, and may even find themselves at a disadvantage because of it.

CCP stated their reasons for changing the WCS restrictions as wanting pilots to commit to fights. It seems reasonable to continue this line of thought rather than have a double standard - or will you argue that only the rich and old should be able to not commit to fights?

Put simply, whilst I empathise with the notion that says you've spent time and money on your nanoship, that is not a valid argument. If it were, we could go back to WoW and have levels, where time spent in the game determines how effective you are at combat. I don't think that that is healthy for EVE.


So what you are3 really saying is that you should be able to kill my nano ship.

Thats what this boils down to.,

You think an escape tactic is flawed. That a ship fast enough to outrun a bunch of 'lesser ships' should not be allowed to persist.

Regardless, anyone who armor tanks an interceptor needs to learn how to fly them, anyone who tries to shield tank an inty needs to learn how to fly them. THEY ONLY NANO! Thats all intys do, thats what they are designed for. Howe do you NOT fit 4xOD2 on an interceptor? My inty with gang bonuses and no implants goes about 9k. WAY faster than any non-billion isk Vaga. (Billion including snakes across the boards.. which for high end snakes is a whole lot more).

I understand its aggravating to not be able to catch and kill a solo or small gang of ships. But thats why we build them that way.

There are counters, yes they require tech 2 ships. I see nothing wrong with it. When Vagas get away from me I say 'Damn.. should have caught that fool' I dont start screaming 'NERF NANO SHIPS!!!'

Tenuo
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.27 07:56:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Tenuo on 27/06/2008 07:58:33
Edited by: Tenuo on 27/06/2008 07:58:20
Nanos, ******* invincible:

http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=7401
http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=7400
http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=7354
http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=7280
http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=7257
http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=7133
http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=7106
http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=7068
http://genos.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=engagement&kill=7068 (3 ruptures v nano Ishtar, Vagabond, Stabber and hawk)

this doesn't help the whiners argument ANY bit when Garmon flies around in his Rupture solo murdering Nano hacs or doing it with 1-2 other t1 cruisers or that he kills rapiers with 3 frigs.

Also, speed tanking imbalanced? I don't think so:


Pulses


Rails

ACs

I hope these graphs tell the whole story.

If you deny this, if you deny these HARD FACTS and numbers and the abundance of killmails then I think you are an idiot

Nathan West
Cataclysm Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.06.27 09:40:00 - [112]
 

and what do you think will the nanopilot do when he relizes hes getting hit for any significant amount of damage? hes going to get out of range. Its not about how to damage nanos, most times even drones can hit them but you cant hold em down. Even a overheated domination web only has a range of 19.5 km.
And if you neut them they can still use the remaining time of their mwd cycle to gain range.
At the present state you need a combination of ships or rapier/huginn to take down solo nanos. If you want to fight a nano gang you will need a significant higher amount of non nanoships to be able to kill them -> blob

coeathal vega
Gallente
Northmoor Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.27 09:47:00 - [113]
 

not supported. nanos are not invincible, unless the pilot is a total idiot.

the amount of training and isk spent on those ships should be rewarded with higher survivability. nano is fine, learn to counter it.

Oh, and yeah, your PVE drake will not be good for it.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.06.27 10:04:00 - [114]
 

Not suppoorted.
Imo nano ships is working as intended and are not invulnerable.

Tenuo
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.27 11:42:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Tenuo on 27/06/2008 11:42:30
Originally by: Nathan West
and what do you think will the nanopilot do when he relizes hes getting hit for any significant amount of damage? hes going to get out of range. Its not about how to damage nanos, most times even drones can hit them but you cant hold em down. Even a overheated domination web only has a range of 19.5 km.
And if you neut them they can still use the remaining time of their mwd cycle to gain range.
At the present state you need a combination of ships or rapier/huginn to take down solo nanos. If you want to fight a nano gang you will need a significant higher amount of non nanoships to be able to kill them -> blob



Fit a neut to your BS. Wait for them to turn it off (they will due to cap), then neut them, watch them sit as dead ducks with no cap, no speed, no nothing. Then mwd to the in a battleship and web them and kill them in 10-15 secs.

Also note above killmails, nano upon nano killed by a rupture.

a rupture

yes, those 6mill t1 cruisers.

Haverloth
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
Vigilia Valeria
Posted - 2008.06.27 12:01:00 - [116]
 

I generally agree with this. As others have said, it's a very complicated topic intertwined with a number of other things but leavings things as they are render small-gang warfare to be very difficult. Any interceptor who can catch up with a nano to tackle will usually be taken down in a few shots, well before the rest of the fleet has a chance to catch up.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.27 13:46:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 27/06/2008 13:46:44
Not signed.

Few days ago we took 3 plated BCs (Brutix, Myrmi, Harbi) and an Arazu into LowSec to look around. Came up against a nano-Rapier, nano-curse and a Falcon. We disengaged, unwilling risk the Arazu to counter the Falcon.

When we left the Rapier was in deep armor and struggling with 2 webs and 2 scrams on it. The Myrmi was running low on cap charges thanks to the Curse or we would have stayed.

Our blaster Brutix couldn't get into effective range and the Myrmi was perma-jammed so didn't get its drones (T2 hammers and warriors) into play but my Harbi was having no problems at all ripping into the rapier even before we got the web on it (overheated MWD ftw). If we weren't such carebears and made the conscious decision to leave I would have had that ship.

Zaruda
Minmatar
APEX ARDENT COALITION
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2008.06.27 14:05:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
They are simply a symptom of a specifically broken play environment and that is the thing that needs fixing.

Couldn't agree more with that statement applied on even a more general scale.

Dallarra
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:16:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Dallarra on 27/06/2008 18:16:52
I dont fly a nano ship but I also do not support this Idea there are plenty of affective ways to counter a nano ship yes you have to make a dessision to fly that type of ship instead of another but isnt that what this game is about. Choices. if you nerf everything you dont like eventually everyone will be flying ONE type of ship and one setup because that is the only way the game will be 100% fair. leave the nanos as they are and get over it.

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.07.06 13:47:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: coeathal vega
nanos are not invincible, unless the pilot is a total idiot.


prooving that nano pilots are total idiots.
i guess reikoku made you more stupid than me


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