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Innominate
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:07:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Innominate on 11/06/2008 16:08:39
Originally by: Jade Constantine

But I'm going to try to put this right. I've started by making a ruling that all potential changes to the constitution/founding documents must be raised in the form of documented ISSUEs and join the queue with the rest for CCP approval. I hope this will stop these things clogging up the beginning of meetings.



Originally by: Jade Constantine

There will never be a formal no-confidence mechanic on the CSM.



I think someone has "Committee Chairman" confused with "Chairman Mao".

Fallorn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:12:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Value Added
Seeing all of these Jade apologists come out of the woodwork makes me think that people aren't taking this seriously at all. Read the chatlogs, Jade is completely out of control.

All I hear while reading their posts is *slurp slurp slurp*

Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:15:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 11/06/2008 16:18:15
This proposal

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=793804

resolves everything. Please read it , and give some reasonable input. And could a rep take it up. This is a very reasonable proposal that provides a win-win solution for everyone.

Goons: I think the proposal I make addresses the worry about bad process and power concentration that you guys are worrying about. If you are worried about being discriminated via the chair, this proposal gives goons (and other disidents) protection.

Jade and friends: This proposal clarifies Jades power, and gives her a mandate to work from that allows the role to be done properly whilst providing a canonical reference to give that mandate.

Everyone wins.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:26:00 - [214]
 

One request for everybody - could you please stop accusing every third person of being a Jade alt? Even if they are, you just make yourself look like a whiny fool, because it's said about everybody and you can't prove anything. And much as it's a maxim of human society that there's no position too crazy for somebody to believe in it, there's also no position too crazy that two people won't believe in it. In any group of sufficient size, even those you dislike and find to be nutty will have support too.

Originally by: Theramin Dogon
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
That's not really an accurate statement of my beliefs. I voted for Jade, and I'd probably still vote for Jade-the-CSM-Member. I just find the process of electing the Chair to be extremely unfortunate, because it gave us an inadequate Chair. If Jade had done the sensible thing(given his support of an elected Chair) and stepped down as Chair right off the bat, this would all have been avoided, or at least deserved if he got re-elected to the spot. But he didn't - I'm still not entirely sure why not, though I could hazard a guess at this point - and so we're left with this mess.
Ah, that's what it'd seemed like from your posts. Sorry to have misrepresented you, I'll go back and edit my post.


It's cool, and I see where you got that interpretation from. I just wanted to make myself clear.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:31:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo
[ Jade and friends: This proposal clarifies Jades power, and gives her a mandate to work from that allows the role to be done properly whilst providing a canonical reference to give that mandate.
Everyone wins.


I'd welcome such a document, but only from CCP. I don't think any current member of the CSM or player supporter of CSM members has the required neutral perspective to be involved with this.

Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:37:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 11/06/2008 16:39:45
I understand your position Jade. I totally empathise with it. Its a ***** to be chair in a hostile senate. But CCP seem to of left the question open.

The scope documents provide a power to make sugestions to them. What I propose is you guys take the document I've made as a *template*. Sculpt it into something that works for you guys, and present it to CCP as a proposal on how it should work.

Anyone whos worked with comittees will tell you that whats happening is growing pains of a new body corporate. The solution is always to clarify the procedure. If you dont Jade, people will always question your mandate.

Make it easy for yourself. Jade, I'll put it to you to champion my proposal. This will demonstate a comitment to process, and make it beyond question that this comittee can be made to work.

I'm trying to make a way that works for you. Recognise it big fella. Very Happy

edit: For what its worth, I'm a KOS widow. Whilst I adore the goonies, I totally recognise they are unstable ********s at times. This isn't biased. I do think you blew a couple of resolutions, but rather than searching for blood, I'm trying to brainstorm you a way to make *everyone* happy, including you;. Very Happy

Plumpy McPudding
Profit Development and Research Association

Posted - 2008.06.11 17:13:00 - [217]
 

It would appear that Jade is a few clowns short of a circus.

Walumachoncha SA
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.11 17:54:00 - [218]
 

we need a cohesive CSM, not a stage for narcissistic powertrips.

VCBee 556
Posted - 2008.06.11 17:56:00 - [219]
 

ntEvil or Very MadTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilYARRRR!!

Dak
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2008.06.11 18:04:00 - [220]
 

Confused

Miner Nine
Caldari
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:24:00 - [221]
 

At least this shows you can't have the chair be decided on most votes. It's vastly important for a chair to remain neutral to create a good enviroment for serious internet spaceship dicussion. This is a clear example of the chair not remaining neutral and punishing a CSM rep for no valid reason.

If Jade has ever been to a public meeting in their life, they would of realize that people can Object to a vote at any time. It seem quite clear that Jade completely change what they were voting on to give their own bias opinion. Then when they lost the vote, lash out at a CSM rep whom call them on it with two other CSM rep agreeing.

Teh Doylan
Caldari
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:24:00 - [222]
 

Jade if you feel like you have done nothing wrong, then allow the council to have a vote of no confidence and confidence in you at a time when all the original CSM representatives (not alternates) can be online.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:31:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Teh Doylan
Jade if you feel like you have done nothing wrong, then allow the council to have a vote of no confidence and confidence in you at a time when all the original CSM representatives (not alternates) can be online.


I'm not in favor of any player measure that changes the constitution that hasn't been raised as an issue, been open for public debate for 7 days, been advocated to the CSM by a rep, and passed a simple majority there, documented as a submission proposal and been presented to CCP in the formal discussions at the conference.

(these coincidently are the steps that have been taken with the "electable chair" Issue I raised)

If any CSM rep had chosen to support this thread they could have done exactly the same and we'd be discussing the constitutional change to allow this in Iceland. As yet none have.

This is the only way such a vote could happen and I'm certainly not in favour of subverting the founding documentation to let people play politics with a CSM body that is not designed for this purpose.

So in short. Request denied. If anybody feels I've done something wrong they can certainly ask a rep to advocate this topic for them. Or complain to ccp I guess.


Siona Windweaver
Placeholder Holdings
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:32:00 - [224]
 


Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:33:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:32:56
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Teh Doylan
Jade if you feel like you have done nothing wrong, then allow the council to have a vote of no confidence and confidence in you at a time when all the original CSM representatives (not alternates) can be online.


I'm not in favor of any player measure that changes the constitution that hasn't been raised as an issue, been open for public debate for 7 days, been advocated to the CSM by a rep, and passed a simple majority there, documented as a submission proposal and been presented to CCP in the formal discussions at the conference.

(these coincidently are the steps that have been taken with the "electable chair" Issue I raised)

If any CSM rep had chosen to support this thread they could have done exactly the same and we'd be discussing the constitutional change to allow this in Iceland. As yet none have.

This is the only way such a vote could happen and I'm certainly not in favour of subverting the founding documentation to let people play politics with a CSM body that is not designed for this purpose.

So in short. Request denied. If anybody feels I've done something wrong they can certainly ask a rep to advocate this topic for them. Or complain to ccp I guess.




So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:58:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Aprudena Gist

So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?


Can I ask what you are talking about please?

Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:59:00 - [227]
 

Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist

So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?


Can I ask what you are talking about please?



He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:02:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist

So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?


Can I ask what you are talking about please?



He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.


Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.

Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:08:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist

So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?


Can I ask what you are talking about please?



He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.


Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.



He's allowed to talk about anything he said himself i dont really see an issue with it i can understand if he was showing us your e-mails or anyone else's emails but showing his own is perfectly fine.

Shadako
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:24:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist

So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?


Can I ask what you are talking about please?



He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.


Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.



You of all people talking about something being unprofessional is peak irony at this point.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:29:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Aprudena Gist

He's allowed to talk about anything he said himself i dont really see an issue with it i can understand if he was showing us your e-mails or anyone else's emails but showing his own is perfectly fine.


Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.


Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:31:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist

He's allowed to talk about anything he said himself i dont really see an issue with it i can understand if he was showing us your e-mails or anyone else's emails but showing his own is perfectly fine.


Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.




The General gist of the information is not what's at stake here the only thing would be an actual quote.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:48:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 12/06/2008 00:48:36
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
The General gist of the information is not what's at stake here the only thing would be an actual quote.


Not true - a private list is private, and breaking privacy on such a list short of admission of criminal acts(and I mean real crime, not the odd joint or jaywalk) is a really low thing to do - both on Darius' part and on yours. If you can't keep a secret, you won't get to see any in future.

Besides, breaking privacy on what happens on such a list just shows a lack of imagination - we have a history in the CSM now of issues being added via CSM member request on the forums. If Darius wanted to ***** about Jade not adding this issue, he should have just calmly posted a link to it in the Meeting 5 thread on Jita Park, and asked for it to be heard at that meeting. The private is kept private, and the same ends are achieved. Everybody who needs to know what happened still does, and he comes out of it looking better and embarrassing Jade even more to the other CSMs that would be the case otherwise. Not only is it stupid and immature to break privacy on the list, it shows a terrible deficiency of deftness.

JafoPBCFR
One Stop Mining Shop
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:49:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist

So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?


Can I ask what you are talking about please?



He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.


Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.




WOW!!! HELLO POT MEET KETTLE! Dude you make GW Bush look like a Einstein!

Anthony Pants
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:59:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
He's allowed to talk about anything he said himself i dont really see an issue with it i can understand if he was showing us your e-mails or anyone else's emails but showing his own is perfectly fine.


Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.
Anyone else on the council can talk about their e-mails just fine, and we all know anything and everything you've been saying has been footstomping and temper tantrums.

Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:02:00 - [236]
 

If the majority of CSM believes you incapable of doing your job and disruptive you should step down, it shouldn't have to fall to CCP to tell you that.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:03:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 12/06/2008 01:07:42
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 12/06/2008 00:48:36


Not true - a private list is private, and breaking privacy on such a list short of admission of criminal acts(and I mean real crime, not the odd joint or jaywalk) is a really low thing to do - both on Darius' part and on yours. If you can't keep a secret, you won't get to see any in future.

Besides, breaking privacy on what happens on such a list just shows a lack of imagination - we have a history in the CSM now of issues being added via CSM member request on the forums. If Darius wanted to ***** about Jade not adding this issue, he should have just calmly posted a link to it in the Meeting 5 thread on Jita Park, and asked for it to be heard at that meeting. The private is kept private, and the same ends are achieved. Everybody who needs to know what happened still does, and he comes out of it looking better and embarrassing Jade even more to the other CSMs that would be the case otherwise. Not only is it stupid and immature to break privacy on the list, it shows a terrible deficiency of deftness.


There has never been any, implied or otherwise, expectation of privacy on the mailing list. I talked with people about what we were discussing, as I'm sure others have. I have friends. I tell them what I'm doing. Now if I went and forwarded all the emails I'd agree that would have been wrong. But merely saying "Hey here's what I was discussing" is far from a breach of privacy and I submit that the only reason people are taking umbrage with it is that they're ashamed of themselves and their actions. They should be.

:edit: I'd like to note as well that you were aware of this before ever posting your response and acting ignorant because I told you. Yesterday. I also included everyone else on the mailing list in that statement. OH MY GOD IVE DONE IT AGAIN!!!!

Anthony Pants
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:07:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Nynaeve Ares
If the majority of CSM believes you incapable of doing your job and disruptive you should step down, it shouldn't have to fall to CCP to tell you that.
BUT IT IS HIS JOB TO TELL THEM HOW TO BEHAVE AND THEY HAVE BEEN MISBEHAVING NAUGHTY LITTLE CHILDREN AND ARE DESERVING OF A TIME-OUT

Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:09:00 - [239]
 

But but but... democracy?

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:13:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

There has never been any, implied or otherwise, expectation of privacy on the mailing list. I talked with people about what we were discussing, as I'm sure others have. I have friends. I tell them what I'm doing. Now if I went and forwarded all the emails I'd agree that would have been wrong. But merely saying "Hey here's what I was discussing" is far from a breach of privacy and I submit that the only reason people are taking umbrage with it is that they're ashamed of themselves and their actions. They should be.


I think you should view the terms of service you agreed with when you signed up to that mailing list Darius. Serenity is the provider of that mailing list and you should go and have a read of his last message before you continue this line of argument.

You might also want to review your decision to raise the publication of emails from that list on sundays agenda. Up to you, but might save us all some time.





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