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blankseplocked [ISSUE] Modify LOCAL chat
 
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:17:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Well the bad news is that the CSM initially voted it down: 18:41 +

After discussion the issue was supported by Lavista, Jade, Dierdra Val,
opposed by Hardin, Bane, Inanna, Tusko, Serenity, Ank.

However, Tusko does want another attempt to get the issue onto the table with a more detailed proposal that he's working on and we should get to vote on that prior to the end of august online meeting with CCP.

I'm disappointed we couldn't get the issue in principle on the agenda last sunday but as you can see from the meeting chatlog there are quite split opinions on the issue. I however remain convinced its a vital issue and we need it raised to CCP so am eagerly looking forward to Tusko's take on the problem.



Thanks for the answer!

From the transcript I see that possibly 2 votes may reverse, provided the proposed implementation becomes more attractive.

Where is the current proposal (the "document") published and/or being discussed?

Mister Xerox
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:38:00 - [92]
 

Have to say NO to this one.

No local = very, very empty universe. Not only do the 'locals' not know who's come into the system unless they task some poor slub to stare at the gate(s) in infinitum, but the 'hostiles' don't know if there's anyone there to bother with.

This leaves both parties stuck spamming their scan buttons hoping for a hit before they show up on the other guy's scan spam.

Even in empire space this would leave Eve full of... solo pilots, because that's how they would feel wherever they went when their only visal contact with other players would be at gates or stations.

Blind Molechild
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:54:00 - [93]
 

carebears love their local. i guess if you allready have 10 alts in hulks in a belt it would be hard to manage #11 in a scout ship. how about we remove local and get a "save" function implementet. *endofflame*

having something like a multispec probe that detects new ships in system, would definitly be enough to replace "local" as it is now. then again if you have a probe doing exactly what local did, why get rid of it?

or you enable a local chat for alliances who hold sov in system i.e. u got a system scanner at your pos, and your "sov local" shows you all people in system. introduce some sort of hacking module, allowing enemy players to link onto the system scanner for 10-30 sec, hacking should be detectable though. just some ideas.

Alz Shado
EverFlow
Posted - 2008.07.22 16:12:00 - [94]
 

The problem isn't that local is so powerful, it's that the scanner sucks so bad.

Removing local in it's current form without making the proper fixes to the scanning system would be a huge mistake.

If I had five minutes to come up with a better solution, here's what I would do:

1) Highsec - Nothing at all. Social channels in .5+ systems should remain as they are. The only parties to be affected by a change here would be corporations at war, but in this case they shouldn't be given any additional penalties/benefits while in an otherwise high security area.

2) Lowsec - Only show pilots with standings in local -- positive OR negative. Neutrals boost the population counter, but their portraits don't appear on the local toolbar until they speak in local, are scanned or seen on grid. This will place more emphasis on personal relationships, as well as keeping better track of who your friends and enemies are.

3) Nullsec/No Sovereignty - Local population count ONLY. No portraits appear in local until they speak, are scanned, or appear on grid. This would boost player interaction by Hailing new pilots in system, to give them an opportunity to reveal themselves as friendly or not a threat. Scanners get "pings" that show gate activation.

4) Nullsec/Sovereignty - In systems where your alliance has sov, the intel displayed in local approaches that of highsec, but only for your alliance leaving attacking forces would be at a severe disadvantage. Forces enemies' scouts to be more diligent about collecting intel. Also boosts the importance of having sovereignty.

Monuturattilor
Posted - 2008.07.22 22:57:00 - [95]
 

I completly agree local chat should get either removed or just not show who is inside the system. I have nothing not previously said to add though,


Foulque
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.07.23 01:17:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: SunglassesInSpace
A chat channel should not be used for intel. 100% behind this.

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2008.07.23 04:31:00 - [97]
 

I will only support this proposed local change IFF:

-the ship scanner that is built-in into ships currently is made more user-friendly
-that there is some sort of visual cue as to being scanned by such a scanner

Xyzibit
Caldari
New-Roots
Posted - 2008.07.23 05:02:00 - [98]
 

supported...

BUT..

constellation chat sounds like a great idea but then there needs to be something done about spammers ESPECIALLY for JITA.... in jita constellation chat there would be way on top of 1.5k people and local spammers would be happy about that...

plz dont get me wrong im just afraid of the empire constellations with more than 1k ppl in thereExclamation

i can remember once ccp had something like a global chat which you could close but autojoined after login (at least for the first time) ... that was awfulRolling Eyes

Dev Rom
Caldari
Masterminds Industries
Posted - 2008.07.30 21:18:00 - [99]
 

I would totally eliminate the local-intellychat. If you want to see people billions miles away, you have to scan for it! Take a recon, place some scan-tower that spread that intellgence infos to your corp or ally. But if you roam in the wild, you have to risk.
Why I can't see rats in belts from the stargate? Or I can't see complexes without scan for it? So I can't see people in system if their ships aren't in overview-range or scan range (if I scan).

Madscience
Posted - 2008.07.30 21:33:00 - [100]
 

a big NO for this idea

so now you want to turn this game into who has the most time, the most people at the time to enjoy the game?

Dyon Axio
Posted - 2008.07.30 21:45:00 - [101]
 

Ok, here is an idea (which has been stated over and over again). If this is implemented, i would expect:

The ability to put system scanner modules at poses WITHOUT sov.

that the ship scanner showed ONLY ships that have pilots in them and some kind of IFF system where you could "Ping" a ships IFF scanner, and it would return "friend" for blue or "unknown" for neut or hostile.

Local beacon counter (ovbiously)

Because a soverien power over a system with sov controls the gates, their members should have an accurate local channel showing EVERYONE, since they control the gates and they should know who is in a system anyway.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.07.30 21:51:00 - [102]
 

I love this idea. I fully support removing local as an intel tool, and replacing it with more active means of gathering intelligence. Ganking someone in your system should be about just watching local for an arrival, and keeping an eye on your six should have more involved then popping a cloak every time an unknown pops up.

Moving the local info into constellation chat is just a step in the right direction, as long as I'm allowed to close both.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:28:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 30/07/2008 22:28:07
It is SO simple to fix Local, without getting rid of it completely.

Make Local chat a "Recent Speakers" channel, instead of an "Immediate" one.

Then you have a total count, but the only faces you see are those that speak. You can still gab with all your friends... but you'll have no idea that some Outsider is about unless they choose to start gabbing too.

gladitoor
Amarr
Roxic Enterprizes
United Rock Enterprises Ltd
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:53:00 - [104]
 

I think nobody should be visible to you in local chat unless they either speak in chat (thereby breaking radio silence) or they are directly in the same grid as you. The idea of me knowing who's jumping in and out of the system while I'm sitting in some belt so many AU away is pretty unrealistic.

Case Kovaks
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:57:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Case Kovaks on 30/07/2008 22:56:55
Agreed.

Vigilant
Gallente
Vigilant's Vigilante's
Posted - 2008.07.31 02:25:00 - [106]
 

How about ...

Remove Local in Low Sec. / Null sec.

But leave the same as it is now in High Sec.


Best of both worlds ... PvP / Pirate crowd is happy and the "carebear crowd" is unaffected.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.07.31 02:35:00 - [107]
 

Removing local flat out is a bad idea until they improve scanning.

Make it constellation.

Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.31 02:36:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Vigilant
How about ...

Remove Local in Low Sec. / Null sec.

But leave the same as it is now in High Sec.


Best of both worlds ... PvP / Pirate crowd is happy and the "carebear crowd" is unaffected.


It is not so cut and dry. I think local is fine.

Vigilant
Gallente
Vigilant's Vigilante's
Posted - 2008.07.31 02:40:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Fahtim Meidires
Originally by: Vigilant
How about ...

Remove Local in Low Sec. / Null sec.

But leave the same as it is now in High Sec.


Best of both worlds ... PvP / Pirate crowd is happy and the "carebear crowd" is unaffected.


It is not so cut and dry. I think local is fine.


Yeah so do I m8, but figured I would find a happy middle of the road Very Happy I can see how it really plays a part in low sec / null sec.

Lolarina
Posted - 2008.07.31 03:09:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Lolarina on 31/07/2008 03:09:35
I haz idea.

Local sucks. No local sucks. Let's go 50/50.

Systems randomly lose local for a random period of time due to ion storm.

Heomos Ricedi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.31 05:12:00 - [111]
 

/signed

Arngorf
Minmatar
Cahoots Foray

Posted - 2008.07.31 05:43:00 - [112]
 

an easy solution is just making ppl not appear in local chat until they vocalize themself with a chat message..

Else make it possible to disable local chat so that you cant see it and no one else can see you since you are'nt in that channel... simply not joining the local channel unless you want to..

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:37:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Mecinia Lua on 31/07/2008 08:38:19
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
To remove it they'd need a similar almost effortless means of acquiring the same data. At the same time for a tech angle it is most likely they'd still have to report the information to your computer so it can interact. If you code it such that it doesn't show someone will just make a program that lets them see it. So its probably not a wise investment for CCP to program it out.

The data would not be available at any range, as it is currently. The range would be calculated server side before the information is made available to the client, so no bacon-like hack would work.

Oh, and the whole point of this is to remove the "effortlessness" with which this data is currently acquired.


I think your incorrect it is reported to your computer. Displaying the information is just flipping a flag. Completely stripping it out would require a much more concerted effort and probably a lot of programming time that could be better used on other aspects of the game.

Just like one alliance first hacked and got the standings in the local window and then we all got it because it was an unfair advantage, this is pretty much the same thing, that's why CCP has never removed it except for that hiccup once upon a time, they can't figure out how to do so economically.

Personally many of those calling for removal of local will not find the situation they want if it is removed. It would actually make the game harder for both the hunted and the hunter.

The hunted would most likely retreat to empire, if they leave hi sec it will be only to do exploration sites and generally in groups becasue any other activity would just be to dangerous. They'll either look to stay in NPC corps to avoid war declares or gravitate to that as the hunters become more bored in low and 0.0 sec and look to empire for targets.

The hunters would become bored because of decreasing targets. In both cases ultimately folks would probably leave the game faster than the current average.

It would probably lead to a slow decline of the game at best and at worst a very drastic decline of the game as what happened to SWG

Dev Rom
Caldari
Masterminds Industries

Posted - 2008.07.31 10:47:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Dev Rom on 31/07/2008 10:55:11
Leaving local chat a recent chat, is the best e easy way imho. Evolving che scan system will be needed of course.
I don't think it will become boring. We speak about pvp in general, not only 1vs1. So you need a fleet and an organization, and so eliminating local intellychat would improve cooperations: some explore to hunt down, some gate camp. Not simply wait at gates or at belts to kill people. Camping is not pvp imho.
Even now people remain in game corp to not risk a war, so changing the local system would not alter their gameplay and a recent chat wouldn't hurt them.
Leave the possibility to drop probe and scan pos would render hunting people fun and easy. Freighter fleet in null sec doesnt change, becouse you have to have a recon ship in fleet to scan gate and system ahead, so what's the difference? Only that you will not have the exact number and name of people in system. Today noone could stealth himself without a cloacking device from AU away. This is a mess. Maybe some powerful ships would emit so much em-noise to speak loud in local chat, but what for a ship shutten down whit all systems off? The tactical sceniarios would be really vast. :)

JordanParey
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.07.31 10:59:00 - [115]
 

I don't think this is a very good idea.

You can want to change this so it doesn't show anyone in local, but don't go whining in C&P when someone sneaks up on you and pops you.

Doing this would also make it much more difficult to tell if there are pirates in the area..war targets...alliance and corp members...

it would make being in system a terrifying experience for some and a rush for others.
Leave it be.

soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.07.31 15:25:00 - [116]
 

eh, not so sure, while it is used as a tactical tool by people, the potential victims could easily use it the other way around, the pirates use local to see who is in system, the victimes can use it to see who is yellow/ flashy red

soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.07.31 15:28:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 31/07/2008 15:35:40
Originally by: JordanParey
I don't think this is a very good idea.

You can want to change this so it doesn't show anyone in local, but don't go whining in C&P when someone sneaks up on you and pops you.

Doing this would also make it much more difficult to tell if there are pirates in the area..war targets...alliance and corp members...

it would make being in system a terrifying experience for some and a rush for others.
Leave it be.



the bolded mostly, but this entire post in general also states while it's not the best idea, and since you are here saying how its "being used as a tactical tool" im assuming your a non pvper, and if this was implemented, you would go whine on C&P very quickly, because at least local gives you the opportunity to scout for potential dangers, like you most certainly do now, but you probably dont realize it, and if you dont, well you better start, i do it without thinking, and fate decides to punish me when i dont, apparently the caldari have been camping neutral systems (concord, interbus) in gallente high sec, most of the time, i check local, make a quick scna down, to make sure no reds, or war targets pop up (or people i know, so i can start a conversation with them) anyway, im gonig to my corp, and im in my little salvage boat destroyer, and i come out of local, and see what systems i will be passing through (it was a 12 jump journey) and i didnt check local, im in the star map, and boom one of the caldari militia is camping the gate, im in star map, and hear the locking sound and think, oh well, it's a noob who thinks he can kill me or someone did it by accident, then the ship starts shooting me Shocked and it is then i realize its a WT, and i didnt check local, and look what happened, he shot me to like 50% structure before i got to the gate


so, start using local to YOUR advantage instead of finding a way around it, which you are going to regret anyway

Belmarduk
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.07.31 15:44:00 - [118]
 

I disagree

Heartstone
Aliastra

Posted - 2008.07.31 16:16:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Heartstone on 31/07/2008 16:16:24
Support in theory. The exact roll out would need a lot of work though

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.07.31 18:59:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: EXODUS Patch Notes
Added region and constellation system channels. You can join Region channel through the Channels list, but Constellation is always shown. Both channels only show recent speakers and cannot be utilized as a tactical tool. This is for mingling only.


Making Local a Recent Speakers channel would also mean it "cannot be utilized as a tactical tool".


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