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Hairy Pants
Caldari
The Incorporated Slavs
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.06.09 07:23:00 - [1]
 

Are Caldari best missilers or not?

That's the question. Let's take a look to some non-Caldari missile boats' bonuses:

1. Vengeance.
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage.

2. Anathema.
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage.

3. Sacreliege.
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile damage.

4. Malediction.
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage.

5. Heretic.
Destroyer Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 10% bonus to rocket and missile explosion velocity per level.

I want you to pay attention for this moment: there's no damage type specification for all these ships. But if we'll pilot any Caldari missile boat with missile damage bonuses, we'll see only kinetic damage boost. It is true for all cases except stealth bombers and T1 missile frigates. More than all, I can not remember any Caldari ship with an explosion velocity bonus! So, I want to ask an interesting question: are Caldari still missile-oriented race or not?

Let's look for any gunship with damage bonus. Usually it is +5% per skill level for all types of ammo. There are no Minmatar boats with '+5% bonus to Fusion S damage', as no Gallente ship with '+5% bonus to Antimatter L damage'. What for Caldari race is limited (!) with the only damage type? Is it the payment for the few ships with ECM bonus? Well, let's suppose that. But what for the Amarr race gifted with explosion velocity bonused ship, able to damage fast targets without great damage penalty?

I want to return justice for missile-oriented Caldari boats. It is simple to implement, methinks. Just change all 'kinetic' damage bonus to unspecified. More than, I ask you to remove thermal damage bonus for Eris. And also I ask you to find some Caldari ship to give 'em an explosion velocity bonus, even 5% per skill level would be fine. I think, Hawk can get such bonus for exchange on shield boost bonus.

Proposed Hawk:
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Missile Damage, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Thermal resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level.

Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 5% bonus to missile explosion velocity per level.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.06.09 08:24:00 - [2]
 

The reason cal dont get a across the board damage bonus is because the other ships that simply get dmg bonus's such as the thron are actually only getting a kinetic/thermal dmg bonus, as hybrid charges can only do kin/therm. This is similar for ammar.

Its a tad unfair that minmatar get many diff dmg types for their projectile ammo and still get dmg bonus's though, perhaps they shld have their bonus's changed to be inline with other ships bonus's...

Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.06.09 08:49:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: BiggestT
The reason cal dont get a across the board damage bonus is because the other ships that simply get dmg bonus's such as the thron are actually only getting a kinetic/thermal dmg bonus, as hybrid charges can only do kin/therm. This is similar for ammar.

Its a tad unfair that minmatar get many diff dmg types for their projectile ammo and still get dmg bonus's though, perhaps they shld have their bonus's changed to be inline with other ships bonus's...


tbh is not that simple.....
All races have ships which get dmage bonus for all damage types
Minmatar get generally, because have more damage types
Caldari get rof bonus which is equal with all damage bonus
Amarr get the khanid ships and some droneships
And Gallente get droneships with damage bonus

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.06.09 08:52:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: BiggestT
The reason cal dont get a across the board damage bonus is because the other ships that simply get dmg bonus's such as the thron are actually only getting a kinetic/thermal dmg bonus, as hybrid charges can only do kin/therm. This is similar for ammar.

Its a tad unfair that minmatar get many diff dmg types for their projectile ammo and still get dmg bonus's though, perhaps they shld have their bonus's changed to be inline with other ships bonus's...


To expand this, missile using ships are the only ships that can select to do all the damage as the same kind of damage.

Minmatar guns damage is plit 2 or 3 ways depending on ammunitions, so it i almost guaranteed that at least part of the damage is done against the better resists of the enemy, Caldari have the possibility to change all the damage so they do maximum damage against the weakest resistence of the target.

For the OP: Raven get a bonus in missile launching speed, so it get a bonus with all the missiles. there is a couple of other ships gettign the same bonus.

Amarr T2 ships get the bonus on short range weapons only.

Other race stealth bombers get a specific racial bonus damage on 1 of the damage kinds.

So yes, Caldari missile bonus is perfectly on line with the rest of the ships bonuses.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.06.09 09:00:00 - [5]
 

You also have to factor in for example that defenders can come into account. So missle velocity actually helps you hit the target before any defenders can actually do anything.

So lets say you fly a dominix. You use sentries. Wardens for example do kinetic dmg but have long range and crap dps. While Gardes have high dps and short range.

Missles all have the same range and dps. The difference is that on missions where the dominix would be using kinetic drones-wardens. Guristas for example. The chance of defenders taking out your missles is stronger. So a bonus to velocity actually helps you increase your damage technically by attempting to hit the ships before defenders work.

So you then look at ROF bonuses. They are directly related to dps. For missles and high alpha. You're better off with ROF bpnis the dmg.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.06.09 09:02:00 - [6]
 

the rof does help for all dmg types for missiles. But for the cal ships that get bonus to kin dmg, we waste a bonus when we have to change dmg types.

Minmatar can always use thier bonus's for their dmg bonus ships no matter what tho foes resistance are. All they have to do is change ammo and still get a bonus. Why cant the minmatar have rof bonus's instead?? Wld seem fairer

Dark Voynix
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.06.09 09:14:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Dark Voynix on 09/06/2008 09:13:57
i realy dunno its you are ******ed or just criminal.
If you look bonuses why you dont write all of them?


Just one example that explains all:

CROW:
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage per level

Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 10% bonus to Missile Velocity per level

MALEDICTION:
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level

Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 5% bonus to EM Missile damage per level


As you can see the crow will have 10% for kinetic missiles, malediction 10% for emp missiles. Its true that have also 5% bonus for other damage types, but on the other hand is have bonues only to rockets, not also to light missiles, and have not the missile velocity. do you know the range of rockets without missile velocity???

KingOzar
Caldari
Skill Training Completed
Posted - 2008.06.09 09:26:00 - [8]
 

Hold on here, forget the damage bonuses. Look at what missiles are being buffed here; all short range. Caldari get bonuses to short and long range missiles, these bonuses only apply to short range.

Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
Posted - 2008.06.09 09:31:00 - [9]
 

The OP is definitely after something. Khanid ships have only bonuses for short range weapons, while Caldari have bonuses for both long and short range.

For starters, Raven definitely needs the bonus to stop applying to torpedoes. Lets see how that ballances before doing other changes.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.06.09 10:03:00 - [10]
 

Amarr have a specific and limited bonus damage to missiles that does not apply to all missile types, it's still a limited bonus, they won't be using heavy missiles or light missiles, they will just suck bad with those because it's going unbonused...

Caldari can use all missile types and have a limitation on the damage type.

Two different specific damages, that sounds fair.
After that, it's only arguing that short range is dangerous (for amarr) and the kinetic damage is bad (for the caldari).

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.09 10:17:00 - [11]
 

There's not many Caldari ships that pick up a rate of fire boost. That's largely because rate of fire with capless weapons is actually quite powerful.

Both Amarrian ships, and Caldari ships are constrained, but in different ways. Amarr get short range weapons, Caldari get both ranges but one damage type.

Which means if you're using HAMs, then yes, the Sacrilege outclasses the Cerb. But if you're wanting to use heavy missiles, the Cerb does it better.

Personally though, I've always found it somewhat jarring that 'kinetic only' (Or 'EM only') damage bonuses exist.

All the other weapon systems out there, get their 'bias' on racial damage types by the choices available - drones for example, the thermal drones just do more damage (but in return are slower and heavier).
Minmatar damage skew is achieved by having 'more explosive' in the damage type mix.

*shrug*. Broadly speaking, I think it's ok that that difference exists. I'd still be liking to see a bit of a polishing of the Cerb, as compared to the Sacrilege, but I think that's a slight shift and general improvement, that could quite easily be achieved my making precision heavy missiles not suck.

I'd be a very happy bunny if the 'Caldari missile boats' got an all damage types bonus, but I can't see it happening any time soon. I'd personally like to see missiles be treated a bit more like drones - variable velocity, explosion velocity/radius and damage, based on what type of missile they are. But it's quite a bit of effort, for not a lot of benefit, and would cause much whining.

Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.06.09 10:30:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: KingOzar
Hold on here, forget the damage bonuses. Look at what missiles are being buffed here; all short range. Caldari get bonuses to short and long range missiles, these bonuses only apply to short range.


Be carefull with this too, because the most caldari ships cant really viable fit shortrange, highdamage weapons(maybe torps are exception)

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.06.09 10:40:00 - [13]
 

ppl also forget that missiles may have good range, but dont hit instantly, in which case that argument is kinda null and void.

They also forget than many other ships besides cal ger rof bonus's, so that argument is null and void..

The question is, why do minmatar get dmg bonus's when they can use ammo to work against any resist type? thye should have set dmg bonus's such as a certain type of ammo etc.

Its not fair that the other races are restricted to one/two dmg types when minmi get them all..and dmg bonus's..and rof bonus's..etc

Hairy Pants
Caldari
The Incorporated Slavs
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.06.09 10:43:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Hairy Pants on 09/06/2008 10:53:39
Originally by: Dark Voynix
Edited by: Dark Voynix on 09/06/2008 09:13:57
i realy dunno its you are ******ed or just criminal.
If you look bonuses why you dont write all of them?


Just one example that explains all:

CROW:
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage per level

Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 10% bonus to Missile Velocity per level

MALEDICTION:
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level

Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 5% bonus to EM Missile damage per level


As you can see the crow will have 10% for kinetic missiles, malediction 10% for emp missiles. Its true that have also 5% bonus for other damage types, but on the other hand is have bonues only to rockets, not also to light missiles, and have not the missile velocity. do you know the range of rockets without missile velocity???


1. Are we playing the same EVE Online? Where have you found the EM Missile damage bonus for Malediction? I've found 5% bonus to warp disruptor range there.
2. Range of rockets without missile velocity equals zero (0 km). But if we'll try to read it as 'without missile velocity bonus', the answer is 10 km, AFAIR.

For all who told something like 'RoF bonus >= Damage bonus' I'll repeat that I've told about Caldari missile boats with damage bonus only. RoF bonus is available for a number of ships, not for Raven only.

Anyway, Caldari needs to be boosted, IMHO. Especially it is necessary to get a Caldari ship with bonus for explosion velocity. (BTW, take a look for Heretic's bonuses - it has both missile velocity and explosion velocity bonus.)

PS For the first post's sentence about Eris' thermal bonus I've meaned to remove 'thermal' and change it to unspecified.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.06.09 11:44:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Hairy Pants
Especially it is necessary to get a Caldari ship with bonus for explosion velocity.


I think it's not especially the caldari missile boats that are wrong with explosion velocity, it's the missiles themselves!

The velocity vs explosion velocity damage reduction system works in a very strange way. If the way it is calculated was changed a bit, it would allow for more progressive damage reduction on the high speeds.

Bad Borris
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.06.09 12:22:00 - [16]
 

The sacrelidge is the best all-round missile boat in the game. Best damage, fast and cap stable nanoed, nice tank and ability to tackle while sacrifice very little. Only thing it lacks is range which it kind of makes up for when nano with javelin hams or even heavy missiles.


Like giving caldari the best laser-boat. Shocked

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.06.09 15:04:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Bad Borris
The sacrelidge is the best all-round missile boat in the game. Best damage, fast and cap stable nanoed, nice tank and ability to tackle while sacrifice very little. Only thing it lacks is range which it kind of makes up for when nano with javelin hams or even heavy missiles.


Like giving caldari the best laser-boat. Shocked


I tend to dis-agree, its range is kind-of a joke compared to a cerb etc

But indeed, the caldari missile boats cld use some love..or just missiles in general as previouslyt stated.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2008.06.09 15:20:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: BiggestT


The question is, why do minmatar get dmg bonus's when they can use ammo to work against any resist type?


A few different reasons, which is probably why it's confusing.

1. Very low DPS without damage bonuses.
2. Unoptimized ammo. For instance the highest damage T1 does 3 different damage types.
3. They do have an explosive damage bias in their T2 ammo.
4. Fewer hardpoints (and split weapon systems in a few cases)

Bad Borris
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.06.09 16:00:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Bad Borris on 09/06/2008 16:02:41
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Bad Borris
The sacrelidge is the best all-round missile boat in the game. Best damage, fast and cap stable nanoed, nice tank and ability to tackle while sacrifice very little. Only thing it lacks is range which it kind of makes up for when nano with javelin hams or even heavy missiles.


Like giving caldari the best laser-boat. Shocked


I tend to dis-agree, its range is kind-of a joke compared to a cerb etc

But indeed, the caldari missile boats cld use some love..or just missiles in general as previouslyt stated.


So you are saying that the cerbs range outweighs any advantage the sac might have in its greater speed, cap stability, ability to tackle (web and scram)? There is really no argument. Sacrelidge is simply a better pvp ship and a better missile boat than is the cerb. It is certainly better with hams than the cerb and given that the sac retains every other advantage it has over the cerb when fitting heavy missiles then it is not exactly lacking while using long range weapons either.

The comparison between the cerb and sac is a bad joke on caldari imo. Missiles are caldari racial weapons!!! Imagine a new beagle outperforming a deimos.

Issues like this are nothing to do with missiles themselves but ship bonuses and the midslot problem. Removing the racial bonus and replacing it with a general missile bonus would be a start but would not solve the problem as far as the cerb sac comparison. Then again since I am not so far from being able to fly sac i should really stfu

Btw does anyone fit missile range rigs to the sac? I think not.

Jack Jombardo
Amarr
Cosmic Allianz
Posted - 2008.06.09 16:12:00 - [20]
 

Amarr is suposed to be the TANK-rase but then let's talk about the Drake.

Well, there is somethink wrong as this BC tanks better then some BS and bar far better then any Amarr (other) BC.
Oh and most Amarr-Laserboots doesn't even get a real turret bonus. Just a "-10% energy need peer shot".

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.06.09 16:12:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Bad Borris
stuff


You're just saying something like 'Amarr should not use missiles at all because it's a caldari weapon' ?
So the Cerberus should outperform totally the Sacrilege for that fact?

There's one thing called game balance, and it dictates that each one outperforms the other in a different area which are heavy missiles for the Cerb and Heavy assault missiles for the Sacrilege.

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.06.09 16:35:00 - [22]
 

Well, regardless of the actual bonuses, it's ironic that the best missile HAC is the sacrilege, rather than a caldari ship.

Also, I support more caldari ships with explosion velocity bonuses!

Ariko Gunaris
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.09 16:52:00 - [23]
 

I agree with the op, Caldari ships definitely need to be nerfed.

The Raven's rof bonus should be changed to a kinetic damage bonus -- the way it is now is out of line

The velocity bonus also shouldn't apply to torpedos.

Bad Borris
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.06.09 16:58:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Originally by: Bad Borris
stuff


You're just saying something like 'Amarr should not use missiles at all because it's a caldari weapon' ?




Nope.

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac


So the Cerberus should outperform totally the Sacrilege for that fact?




Nope. Im not arguing that the sac should be any less effective than the cerb. Im just pointing out that the sac has greater utility over a larger number of areas and is significantly better than the cerberus at all but one thing : long range missile spam and it aint bad at that either seeing as it is cap stable and fast enough to kill or evade most stuff. In fact I would argue it is still better with heavys since u can take out vagabonds easy with a heavy missile sac.

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac


There's one thing called game balance, and it dictates that each one outperforms the other in a different area which are heavy missiles for the Cerb and Heavy assault missiles for the Sacrilege.




So you are arguing that ccp balanced the game to make amarr better with hams and gallente better with blasters and caldari ****e with every short range weapon they have?

Nonsense.





James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.09 17:49:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: KingOzar
Hold on here, forget the damage bonuses. Look at what missiles are being buffed here; all short range. Caldari get bonuses to short and long range missiles, these bonuses only apply to short range.


Be carefull with this too, because the most caldari ships cant really viable fit shortrange, highdamage weapons(maybe torps are exception)


Actually, they're not. The cruiser sized ships have a hard time with the powergrid for HAMs, but Siege launchers are quite tough to shoehorn onto a PvP fit - 6x Siege II, and an MWD leaves you with a little over 500 powergrid left, which is extremely marginal. Not that I feel this is a bad thing.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.06.11 01:52:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
I agree with the op, Caldari ships definitely need to be nerfed.

The Raven's rof bonus should be changed to a kinetic damage bonus -- the way it is now is out of line

The velocity bonus also shouldn't apply to torpedos.


..Are u an idiot? nerf caldari? Neutral LOL
yeah lets nerf ammar, their lasers are too cap stable @[email protected]
/sarcasm
if u read the post op wants an effective boost to caldari not a nerf.
Oh and Bad Borris, id like to see a webbed sac still be as combat effective as my weebed cerb (if u try not-nanoing a cerb they perform much better, fit ab and buffer tank). OH NOES! I DIDNT NANO Shocked cerbs are rarely called primary so just sit with the snipers out far and u can still do awesome in gang situations.

KingOzar
Caldari
Skill Training Completed
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:20:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
I agree with the op, Caldari ships definitely need to be nerfed.

The Raven's rof bonus should be changed to a kinetic damage bonus -- the way it is now is out of line

The velocity bonus also shouldn't apply to torpedos.


Velocity bonus not applying to torps? Are you insane? You obviously have never used torps before, much less seen one. The precision skill doesn't even apply to torps, now you don't wnt one of the best missile boats in the game LOOSING it's missile bonuses?

Katashi Ishizuka
Caldari
Tritanium Workers Union
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:56:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: KingOzar
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
I agree with the op, Caldari ships definitely need to be nerfed.

The Raven's rof bonus should be changed to a kinetic damage bonus -- the way it is now is out of line

The velocity bonus also shouldn't apply to torpedos.


Velocity bonus not applying to torps? Are you insane? You obviously have never used torps before, much less seen one. The precision skill doesn't even apply to torps, now you don't wnt one of the best missile boats in the game LOOSING it's missile bonuses?


Your sarcasm detector is broken.

Merroki
Posted - 2008.06.11 19:49:00 - [29]
 

It bugs me more that a lot of Minmatar ships aren't slotted to do full turret fits, or full missile fits, and only have the turret bonus, meaning that they effectively only get HALF the bonus other ships may get due to the other half of weaponry having to be unbonused launchers.

Buyerr
Posted - 2008.06.12 02:45:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: BiggestT
The reason cal dont get a across the board damage bonus is because the other ships that simply get dmg bonus's such as the thron are actually only getting a kinetic/thermal dmg bonus, as hybrid charges can only do kin/therm. This is similar for ammar.

Its a tad unfair that minmatar get many diff dmg types for their projectile ammo and still get dmg bonus's though, perhaps they shld have their bonus's changed to be inline with other ships bonus's...


minmatar... amarr missile boats...
so your wrong...

peace out, caldari needs some help on the missile field


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