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teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:17:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: teji on 13/06/2008 16:19:36
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
T2 BPO holder deserve to make a little more profit that ppl without them and considering that they do not effect the profits that inventors make one bit the only reason to remove them is because of jealous cry baby prats who are never satisfied no matter what is done.


T2 BPO holders deserve nothing. When things need to change the last thing that needs to be thought about is entitlement. When titans get nerfed will the alliances that build them get a refund? Nope. It doesn't matter that you spend 60 billion isk on the titan bpo and many billions more to build one. When **** is broken you fix it.

Like I said before some CCP dev probably has a ton of T2 bpos which is why we will never end up seeing this fixed. I wish I could prove this though. ugh

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:20:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 13/06/2008 16:31:49

Originally by: teji
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
T2 BPO holder deserve to make a little more profit that ppl without them and considering that they do not effect the profits that inventors make one bit the only reason to remove them is because of jealous cry baby prats who are never satisfied no matter what is done.


T2 BPO holders deserve nothing. When things need to change the last thing that needs to be thought about is entitlement. When titans get nerfed will the alliances that build them get a refund? Nope. It doesn't matter that you spend 60 billion isk on the titan bpo and many billions more to build one. When **** is broken you fix it.

Like I said before some CCP dev probably has a ton of T2 bpos which is why we will never end up seeing this fixed. I wish I could prove this though.



BPO's work fine as far as Ive been told and they have zero impact on players in eve other than those who own them or buy them in the future, so not broken in fact working perfectly.

If your going to make accusations of corruption within ccp i suggest you have facts to back it up or start a thread for the csm to investigate it.

The Speaker
The Clue Factory
Posted - 2008.06.13 17:14:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Boy you are a bad liar. You don't know a bit about the BPO return.
Or you are a very bad builder and think that the minerals and T2 building materials are free because you build them yourself.


Yes, proper accounting and math is oh so difficult Rolling Eyes Nice try at refuting points by trying the marginalize-your-opponent route.

Who knows. Maybe your prints are no longer very profitable. Maybe you are a horrifically inept builder. Honestly, that's most likely not the case - but it's a strong strategic move for you to try to paint the picture that T2 BPO holders are oh-woe-is-me nerfed and deserve more. I understand why you would take that tack, but it's somewhat transparent.

As far as the other guy's assertion that T2 BPO holders aren't the ones driving margins down, in some cases this is true but in others it most definitely isn't. Some T2 BPO holders derive a warped sense of glee by griefing inventors and other BPO holders. I know that I do. Unfortunately I've only been able to kill the margins on four, maybe five, product lines (which really is just a drop in the bucket).

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.13 17:17:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 13/06/2008 17:20:24

Originally by: The Speaker
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Boy you are a bad liar. You don't know a bit about the BPO return.
Or you are a very bad builder and think that the minerals and T2 building materials are free because you build them yourself.


Yes, proper accounting and math is oh so difficult Rolling Eyes Nice try at refuting points by trying the marginalize-your-opponent route.

Who knows. Maybe your prints are no longer very profitable. Maybe you are a horrifically inept builder. Honestly, that's most likely not the case - but it's a strong strategic move for you to try to paint the picture that T2 BPO holders are oh-woe-is-me nerfed and deserve more. I understand why you would take that tack, but it's somewhat transparent.

As far as the other guy's assertion that T2 BPO holders aren't the ones driving margins down, in some cases this is true but in others it most definitely isn't. Some T2 BPO holders derive a warped sense of glee by griefing inventors and other BPO holders. I know that I do. Unfortunately I've only been able to kill the margins on four, maybe five, product lines (which really is just a drop in the bucket) .


Still more lies from the guy who claimed to be making 500-900% profit from his BPO's, AFTER invention came out.

Originally by: The Speaker

Sure, invention murdered my profit margins, but they're still astronomical by real world standards, 500%? 600%? 700%? 800%? 900%? All the while pricing product lines at rates intended to make inventors cry.


You should have researched prices and profit margins before posting this total delusion.

procurement specialist
Posted - 2008.06.13 17:23:00 - [125]
 

um. how bout we replace the bpos with like 1000 or 10,000 (some large number) of bpcs at the current me/pe of the bpo. then you have a few years worth of jobs to build steady or you can sell off good bpcs, or you can keep the steady rate you have now and coast still for a few years as everyone else vapors their bpcs and the price comes back up.

not really saying bpos need to be killed but seemed a better compromise than a single max run bpc for a friggin bpo.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.06.13 17:49:00 - [126]
 

While I am still seeing all kinds of acrimonious shouting in this thread, with people saying other people deserve nothing, and etc...

May I suggest shouters, again, go to this thread: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=793692 AND ASK for answers.

I am afraid shouting is not allowed in that thread.. just polite nudging to the devs for answers. The loudest mouths in this thread, by the way, are the ones who are not seen in the other... and it has been linked here 3 times so far.

I still firmly believe that the provocateurs on both sides are really afraid to ask the developers of the game real questions, because they are really afraid of the answers.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.06.13 18:16:00 - [127]
 

Market forces will eventually devalue them to reasonable levels of sane cost.

That is.. once people finally catch a clue and grasp that a 2 year ROI for anything in this game is a little insane.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2008.06.13 19:33:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: teji on 13/06/2008 19:35:48
Originally by: Jinx Barker
I still firmly believe that the provocateurs on both sides are really afraid to ask the developers of the game real questions, because they are really afraid of the answers.


I know the answers already.

I stand by my statement of: If it's not available for anyone to get then it shouldn't be in the game. It's the same reason that the lottery was a failure as a game concept and why many other games that try the same type of thing remove it shortly after. Except in this case there is some unkown reason to keep the remenants of a failed system around. To make it even more funny they made invention less profitable than the bpos.

As far as my hypothesis of CCP employees having t2 bpos. It's the only logical reason that I can come up with that they are still around. Eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth (yes I stole a quote). Since there is no logical reason to leave t2 bpos in the game what remains is that personal interest has interfered with good game design sense.

Anane
Brother Theo's Monastery
The Ancients.
Posted - 2008.06.13 19:35:00 - [129]
 

lemme just say one thing... if you don't like the way CCP runs the game then WHY are you playing it? it is just a game after all, no one is forcing you to play it.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2008.06.13 19:40:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Anane
lemme just say one thing... if you don't like the way CCP runs the game then WHY are you playing it? it is just a game after all, no one is forcing you to play it.


Why are you reading this forum? All this forum contains are people asking for changes that they would like to see in game. That is the purpose of this forum. To discuss what you would like to see changed. Hence we are discussing it.

This thread is for talking about t2 bpos. This is not for complaining about other forum members. Please stay on topic. Thanks

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.13 19:55:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 13/06/2008 19:55:50
Originally by: teji



As far as my hypothesis of CCP employees having t2 bpos. It's the only logical reason that I can come up with that they are still around. Eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth (yes I stole a quote). Since there is no logical reason to leave t2 bpos in the game what remains is that personal interest has interfered with good game design sense.


Your ignoring the obvious reasons they do not remove them like:

1. As with the fed navy and other ships the T2 BPO's are a pinnacle of their particular type in the game.

2. They effect game design and game play not at all unless your a jealous and bitter nerf hound, and so there is NO reason to remove or nerf them unlike every other removal or nerf the game has seen.

3. They are available or at least can be available for ppl to buy if they have enough isk to do so.

Now considering these facts id say your Sherlock Holmes logic needs a lot of work.

Elenath
Gallente
Bluebird Capital Management
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:21:00 - [132]
 

I disgree almost completely with the OP. I don't even own a single BPO of any sort, and I'll be the first to say that those who have them have the right to keep them.

/not signed

Sally Hemmings
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:53:00 - [133]
 


teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:56:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: teji on 13/06/2008 20:57:01
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean

1. As with the fed navy and other ships the T2 BPO's are a pinnacle of their particular type in the game.

2. They effect game design and game play not at all unless your a jealous and bitter nerf hound, and so there is NO reason to remove or nerf them unlike every other removal or nerf the game has seen.

3. They are available or at least can be available for ppl to buy if they have enough isk to do so.


1) T2 bpos have nothing to do with things that anyone can purchase by running some missions. Maybe if they removed the missions and left the ships in the game you might have a point. If you are talking about unique ships that have been given out in the past that isn't a good idea either.

2) Either they A) don't matter or B) are extremely valuable (see: contracts). So either they are imbalanced which is shown by the ridiculous sale prices or they don't matter so no one should miss them if they were to be removed.

3) A bpo that I want never comes up to contract or it's put up at such a high price it is unfeasable to own it. Either way it doesn't matter. It's not available.

Twisted Mechanic
Posted - 2008.06.13 21:02:00 - [135]
 


sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.13 21:27:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: teji



1) If you are talking about unique ships that have been given out in the past that isn't a good idea either.


Nice argument well presentedRolling Eyes.
Originally by: teji

2) Either they A) don't matter or B) are extremely valuable (see: contracts). So either they are imbalanced which is shown by the ridiculous sale prices or they don't matter so no one should miss them if they were to be removed.



Even if they are ridiculously priced nobody is forced to buy them, and they do not matter to others as far as effecting profits are concerned. So the only reason to remove or nerf them is because ppl are bitter cos they do not own one and that is the worst reason to do anything as ppl like that (you) should not be catered to EVER.

Originally by: teji

3) A bpo that I want never comes up to contract or it's put up at such a high price it is unfeasable to own it. Either way it doesn't matter. It's not available.


Just because you think the price is unfeasible does not mean other would not like to add one to their trophy case, who do you think you are to remove a item from the game that has zero effect on your game at all just because you feel its over priced.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.06.13 21:29:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: teji
3) A bpo that I want never comes up to contract or it's put up at such a high price it is unfeasable to own it. Either way it doesn't matter. It's not available.


Finally we hear some truth here... the above exemplifies ALL of your arguments - you do not have the ISK or the ability to buy a good BPO, and you want to take it away from all others that have them, one way or another.

Basically we come down to a real reason why all the people who want T2 BPOs be taken out of game - their own inability to make enough ISK and their own jealousy at the others.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2008.06.13 21:52:00 - [138]
 

Let me boil this down as simple as possible. It is in CCP's best interest to preserve some sort of equal opportunitiy between players. This is the basis of pretty much every multiplayer game design.

Good game designers don't arbitrarily say ok you get a free pass and you don't. You don't just give an arbitrary set of people a magic bullet that instantly kills everyone else and even dream of it being considered fair. That is why the lottery system was doomed from the moment it was conceived. Work should be rewarded. More work should reward more. This is why invention is so great. Randomness is part of the system but not so much that it prohibits anyone from entering a market.

I never want to purchase a blueprint and I have no interest in building anything. I could not care less about owning one of these or reaping the rewards of having such an item. If you think this has anything to do with me you are wrong. This is about getting CCP to realize they ****ed up.

If you want to rant and rave about how bitter I am please go ahead. Maybe we can reference some conspiracy theories too.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.06.13 21:58:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: teji
I never want to purchase a blueprint and I have no interest in building anything. I could not care less about owning one of these or reaping the rewards of having such an item. If you think this has anything to do with me you are wrong. This is about getting CCP to realize they ****ed up.

If you want to rant and rave about how bitter I am please go ahead. Maybe we can reference some conspiracy theories too.


Ok.

Originally by: teji
A bpo that I want never comes up to contract or it's put up at such a high price it is unfeasable to own it. Either way it doesn't matter. It's not available.


Good luck with your credibility and all that. I still say you are causing trouble and are jealous, and masking it with "fair game" and "balance" garbage. I have read what you were saying, and was just waiting for a slip up like above, again, your kind always comes out with it, you are just not careful enough, or clear-headed enough to try an avoid pitfalls of fallacy.

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.13 22:01:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: teji
Let me boil this down as simple as possible. It is in CCP's best interest to preserve some sort of equal opportunitiy between players. This is the basis of pretty much every multiplayer game design.

Good game designers don't arbitrarily say ok you get a free pass and you don't. You don't just give an arbitrary set of people a magic bullet that instantly kills everyone else and even dream of it being considered fair. That is why the lottery system was doomed from the moment it was conceived. Work should be rewarded. More work should reward more. This is why invention is so great. Randomness is part of the system but not so much that it prohibits anyone from entering a market.


BPO's in the game do nothing to effect the profits of inventors so other than jealousy your whole point here is worthless.


Originally by: teji

I never want to purchase a blueprint and I have no interest in building anything. I could not care less about owning one of these or reaping the rewards of having such an item.



The rewards are minuscule for a good builder and just because you cannot afford one or do not want one is not reason to remove them from the game. In fact because you want nothing to do with them they do not effect you or your game play at all.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2008.06.13 22:13:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
BPO's in the game do nothing to effect the profits of inventors so other than jealousy your whole point here is worthless.


Oh yes my jealousy drives me Rolling Eyes. I'm just against free rides which the lottery and the t2 bpo situation was / is. I suppose that makes me jealous. Whatever, you won't listen to anything I say and I won't listen to what you say.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.06.13 22:39:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: teji
Oh yes my jealousy drives me Rolling Eyes. I'm just against free rides which the lottery and the t2 bpo situation was / is. I suppose that makes me jealous. Whatever, you won't listen to anything I say and I won't listen to what you say.


Thank you for being honest, for once, and admitting the truth in whatever perverse form it may be.

Blackjack Turner
Caldari
State Protectorate

Posted - 2008.06.14 00:20:00 - [143]
 

Lies, greed, envy. This is all the posters who would leave the T2 BPO's in game have to argue with. Made mostly by T2 BPO owner's alts I'm sure.

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.14 00:24:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Blackjack Turner
Lies, greed, envy. This is all the posters who would leave the T2 BPO's in game have to argue with. Made mostly by T2 BPO owner's alts I'm sure.


Im a main actually, if you understood manufacturing you would know that BPO's do not effect inventors at all or their profits. So the only reason anybody would want them removed is false greed, envy and jealousy as no other real reason exists.

Reachok
Amarr
Wrecking Shots
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.06.14 00:26:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Blackjack Turner
Lies, greed, envy. This is all the posters who would leave the T2 BPO's in game have to argue with. Made mostly by T2 BPO owner's alts I'm sure.


Im a main actually, if you understood manufacturing you would know that BPO's do not effect inventors at all or their profits. So the only reason anybody would want them removed is false greed, envy and jealousy as no other real reason exists.


You've just clearly illustrated my point. Thanks! Very Happy

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.14 00:39:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Reachok
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Blackjack Turner
Lies, greed, envy. This is all the posters who would leave the T2 BPO's in game have to argue with. Made mostly by T2 BPO owner's alts I'm sure.


Im a main actually, if you understood manufacturing you would know that BPO's do not effect inventors at all or their profits. So the only reason anybody would want them removed is false greed, envy and jealousy as no other real reason exists.


You've just clearly illustrated my point. Thanks! Very Happy


Your point claims that i am a alt (im not) and that their are other reasons why ppl want BPO's removed.

Did you not read your own post?.

Bra'nn Draythe
Eight-Fold Means Industries
Posted - 2008.06.14 08:07:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Blackjack Turner
Lies, greed, envy. This is all the posters who would leave the T2 BPO's in game have to argue with. Made mostly by T2 BPO owner's alts I'm sure.


Im a main actually, if you understood manufacturing you would know that BPO's do not effect inventors at all or their profits. So the only reason anybody would want them removed is false greed, envy and jealousy as no other real reason exists.


It's amusing how you can say something and not know what you're talking about.

The profit of something is determined by it's selling price. The selling price is determined by market conditions. You can put a T2 ship or item on the market for higher than the current price, but it probably won't sell all that quickly. That's what keeps your price lower to draw more consumer demand (Because they don't want to pay more, and EVE won't let them for that matter)

You have a minimum amount you can sell it for before you actually realize a loss on your product. That's determined by the costs of manufacturing. If your costs are higher than mine and there's nothing you can do about it, the competitive advantage is in my court. This is what's known as the "Wal-Mart" effect. Lower costs = Lower prices with a profit = driving out of business those with higher costs.

The safety margin for an invented ship (I don't know about modules) tends to vary by class, being the best for Recon ships and the worst for most T2 frigates (The Electronic Attack Ships are an exception to this because no T2 BPO exists).

Of course, inventors can understate their costs by treating their R&D Agent datacores and explored decryptors as free, but that's not really sound economic sense.

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.14 09:39:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Bra'nn Draythe
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Blackjack Turner
Lies, greed, envy. This is all the posters who would leave the T2 BPO's in game have to argue with. Made mostly by T2 BPO owner's alts I'm sure.


Im a main actually, if you understood manufacturing you would know that BPO's do not effect inventors at all or their profits. So the only reason anybody would want them removed is false greed, envy and jealousy as no other real reason exists.


It's amusing how you can say something and not know what you're talking about.

The profit of something is determined by it's selling price. The selling price is determined by market conditions. You can put a T2 ship or item on the market for higher than the current price, but it probably won't sell all that quickly. That's what keeps your price lower to draw more consumer demand (Because they don't want to pay more, and EVE won't let them for that matter)

You have a minimum amount you can sell it for before you actually realize a loss on your product. That's determined by the costs of manufacturing. If your costs are higher than mine and there's nothing you can do about it, the competitive advantage is in my court. This is what's known as the "Wal-Mart" effect. Lower costs = Lower prices with a profit = driving out of business those with higher costs.


Ok bud so you claim that even though the T2 market for years has been steady and the although plummet coincided exactly with the onset of invention that its the BPO owners that are driving it down. Although for years the BPO holders had the sense to keep the market high suddenly they have decided to crash it?.

The BPO guys and gals may be able to make a slightly higher profit than inventors but that profit does not effect in the slightest inventors or their profits as the market and demand is way to large (a fact you either ignored as it did not suit you and your point, or you were just ignorant of because of a lack of insight).


Bra'nn Draythe
Eight-Fold Means Industries
Posted - 2008.06.14 10:18:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Bra''nn Draythe on 14/06/2008 10:19:57
I said it before in the thread and I'll say it again. Maybe this time you'll actually read it and understand it.

Back before invention, an Oligopoly existed in the T2 market. An Oligopoly is when there's a relatively small number of individuals or companies involved in a market, resulting in a limited amount of competition. There wasn't that much underbidding because there was a rather low number of people putting stuff up for sale.

With the previous numbers I quoted, a Vagabond would have cost 50m or so to build (Possibly less, possibly more, I don't know what the component costs were) and were oftentimes selling for over 200m ISK each. Many T2 modules were priced upwards of 8-9x as high as they are now.

The invention came in. The Oligopoly came closer to a true Free Market, but not quite because not all of the 'players', so to speak, are following the same rules. Those that have the advantage of lower costs of production enjoy an automatic boost over those that do not.

The current situation is beneficial to the consumer, but it's not as equally beneficial to the sellers of the goods. These situations do happen in the real world, but it would be very difficult to think of anything approaching a magic money-making machine like a T2 BPO. The holders of the BPOs do not make 'slightly higher profits'. Hell, if I could find a company that could reliably make such 'slightly higher profits' in the real world, I wouldn't have to worry about working anymore and could just live off my investments in them.

Well, I guess I could invest in the oil companies right now, but they're a bit of an extreme and their long-term outlook isn't great, but that's irrelevant here.


Oh, and as for the rare event ships. There's one big difference between them and the T2 BPOs. In order to take advantage of their significant powers and abilities, one would have to risk them in combat, either PvE or PvP, which could end up with one less said rare event ship in the game. Ask the ex-leader of IAC about that. But a T2 BPO is different. They don't even have to be put into any risky situation to be used. It's less effective, but unlike ships, they still produce when they're being 'cargo bay queens', unlike hangarqueen ships that are never undocked.

sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.14 11:36:00 - [150]
 

Your missing the fact that nobody is saying that the T2 bpo guys cannot make more isk per sale on the ships they build from their BPO as they of course can without a doubt.

But the fact is that the market is so large and varied that they do not effect the profits of a inventor in the slightest and to claim that they do is absurd.


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