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blankseplocked AF simple boost idea (no alien role bonus)
 
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2008.06.16 01:10:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Papa Gwan
Personally, I think AF's should smoke Cruisers.
But op idea
Quote:
Make the AF what HAC is to cruisers.
In same matter of skills and fitting hac cannot pick on bc, not mentioning bs, then af neither should be able to kill cruisers. They were ment to be ultimate antifrigate, and they do it just fine, as you pointed.

Thunderbird Anthares
ISK Reliability Inc.
Inver Brass
Posted - 2008.06.16 06:03:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Thunderbird Anthares on 16/06/2008 06:03:55
well as it stands AFs are slow and vulnerable
imho AFs should have more than fair chance against cruisers,same as HACs should have more than a fair chance against BCs
i dont think they should "smoke" them,but they should be a good challenge and a risk

as for inties.... i hate nano tactics,you all know what would i say now anyhow so i wont even start,suffice to say i like tradittional combat more and anything nearly uncatchable just makes my skin crawl

Papa Gwan
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.06.16 08:02:00 - [33]
 

Allow me to rephrase; if AF's base cost was what they currently are priced, they should smoke cruisers.

At their current price, not to mention skill requirement, they are underpowered. Since an AF has the same base price as a cruiser, they should be basically comparable. At the minimum, AFs should be able to shoot to a standoff with cruiser. As it stands, unfortunately, AFs will just about always lose in a 1 on 1 with a cruiser.

This is why I think AFs should be adjusted as the OP thinks. Lowering their mass to their Tech 1 parents as well as boosting their armaments would do this. They should be as fast as Tech 1 Frigates Imo. Sure, not interceptor speed, but they should easily break 2km/s without propulsion upgrades.

Just imo.

Alex Medvedov
Minmatar
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.06.16 11:58:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Alex Medvedov on 16/06/2008 12:01:04
Edited by: Alex Medvedov on 16/06/2008 11:58:16
Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Papa Gwan
Personally, I think AF's should smoke Cruisers.
But op idea
Quote:
Make the AF what HAC is to cruisers.
In same matter of skills and fitting hac cannot pick on bc, not mentioning bs, then af neither should be able to kill cruisers. They were ment to be ultimate antifrigate, and they do it just fine, as you pointed.


I have to disagree completly with you. First, If you manage to fit your HAC precisely aginst specific BC you will win with ease, there is no such posibility for AF to do so aginst Cruiser.
You said AF should be super anti-frig vessels, well if you mean t1 frigs, you are right, but who needs such thing, t1 frigs are going to pop if you look badly at them...
Your idea could make some sence if AF would work as the king of the hill above all frigs - eg. would be able to deal with ceptors, ew frigs and stealth bombers with ease, but i dont see how you can make this happen. If you would be flying AFs for a while, you have to come to a conclusion that their main adversary are Cruisers and so I support strongly an idea to make AF more Cruiser killing able. I dont mean Cruiser the cCruisers shouldnt be able to kill AF (like t1 frigs cant kill AFs) but i want chances to be more even.

Btw. One example why AF really need some boost could be that my Jag was killed by a Thresher (!) and i did not do anything wrong, I simply couldnt beat that beast... So dont tell me AFs are ok.

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.16 20:45:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Valandril
They were ment to be ultimate antifrigate, and they do it just fine, as you pointed.

Destroyers, dictors and even combat ceptors do the job better than the actual AFs AND perform other roles.

Like i said before, scissor rock paper games are bad, boosting AF more or less like i suggested would give it more flexibility and raw efficiency.

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.17 06:58:00 - [36]
 

I like the Idea, and have always thought that the AFs should get a boost affecting their Mass and missing 4th bonus. The figures you give look good with one exception:
Originally by: Arkanjuca
Jaguar:
1100 Tons
High: 4 (3t,1l)
Meds: 4
Lows: 4

Frigate bonus: 5% dmg, 5% speed
Assault bonus: 10% falloff, 5% dmg
* Yes, a mini vaga, the ship screams for falloff and speed bonus


According to this, the Jaguar will have the mass of the Ares Interceptor, and (if the ship velocity is unchanged from its current base 325m/s) its top speed with Navigation 5 and Minmatar Frigate 5 will be about 508 m/s. Keep in mind that the Ares top speed with Navigation 5 is 563m/s.

With just a 1MN MWD II, the Jaguar will be moving at around 3.6km/s, and with the proposed low slots and med slots, It will be able to fit tackle, a decent buffer/passive shield tank (Medium Shield Extender II + the minmatar T2 resists), and still be able to EASILY achieve Interceptor speeds (and have a low enough mass to handle like one at those speeds too) utalizing the rigs and low slots.

The Velocity bonus is just too much. Either it needs to go, the base speed needs to be rediculously low (thus wasting/countering the bonus), or the mass needs to be much more than proposed (which is currently one of the major flaws in AFs we are trying to correct, and the proposed mass conforms with the Rifter anyways). The later 2 sugestions make no sense, so we are left with that fact that the velocity bonus would be overpowering on an AF.

I would recomend a Tracking bonus for the Jaguar, as since it would have the highest base speed and lowest mass of all the AFs (and thus already be the fastest AF) and would benefit the most from the tracking bonus. It already has a double damage bonus aswell as a fall off bonus, and this would round the ship out nicely as a high speed (not interceptor speed) a/c boat.

Alex Medvedov
Minmatar
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.06.17 11:09:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Arkios Odymei

I would recomend a Tracking bonus for the Jaguar, as since it would have the highest base speed and lowest mass of all the AFs (and thus already be the fastest AF) and would benefit the most from the tracking bonus. It already has a double damage bonus aswell as a fall off bonus, and this would round the ship out nicely as a high speed (not interceptor speed) a/c boat...


Or as it was discussed here give all AFs nice speed bonus while using Afterburner only. They will not get to ceptor level of speed, but they will stop being overun by Battlecruisers...

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.17 16:49:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Alex Medvedov
Or as it was discussed here give all AFs nice speed bonus while using Afterburner only. They will not get to ceptor level of speed, but they will stop being overun by Battlecruisers...


I think that is an interesting idea as well, But this thread is more specificaly about a more basic change to ship bonuses, mass and slot layouts, and not so much about givving AFs role bonuses. Hence Im trying to stick with the main theme of the idea here, and not Derail this thread with talk of Role bonuses.

Alex Medvedov
Minmatar
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.06.17 17:46:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Arkios Odymei

I think that is an interesting idea as well, But this thread is more specificaly about a more basic change to ship bonuses, mass and slot layouts, and not so much about givving AFs role bonuses. Hence Im trying to stick with the main theme of the idea here, and not Derail this thread with talk of Role bonuses.


OK, sorry about that.
In that case soulution could be to have Jaguar like:
4 hi slots
5 med slots
3 low slots

That would prevent it from reaching uber speeds but be prepared AF like that will be nasty:)) Anyway I am not much for adding more slots to existing ships, more likely i would like to see reconfiguration of bonuses and/or basic stats.

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.17 18:28:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Alex Medvedov
OK, sorry about that.
In that case soulution could be to have Jaguar like:
4 hi slots
5 med slots
3 low slots

That would prevent it from reaching uber speeds but be prepared AF like that will be nasty:)) Anyway I am not much for adding more slots to existing ships, more likely i would like to see reconfiguration of bonuses and/or basic stats.


No need to apologize. Anyways, I agree with you about the slot layout of AFs, as the Primary focus should be on Mass reduction and fouth (real) bonus. Slot layout / reconfiguration should be secondary to that.





BTW, to get an Idea about how fast this proposed Jaguar will be going, Open up EFT and load up a Republic fleet Firetail. The stock speed is the same as the Jaguar (325m/s) and it has the 5% speed bonus aswell. Also, the mass is slightly higher than the proposed Jaguar mass (1,150,000 kg vs 1,100,000 kg), which means that the proposed Jaguar will be slightly faster then what EFT will show about the Firetail.

As for the Jag being limited to only 3 low slots, while maintaining the proposed 5% speed bonus... With just a pair of Polycarb I rigs (Which ppl will use, as many already use them on interceptors), the Jag would be moving at about 4.8km/s. add one Overdirve II, about 5.8km/s. Add a second, about 6.8km/s. And you will still have 1 low slot to play with...

In this last low slot, you can use a damage mod, MAPC if you need... or you can even throw on another Overdrive II or Nanofiber II to push your speed over the 7.5km/s mark. (Add some Low grade snakes to that, 10km/s. High Grades, almost 12km/s... But Snakes are imba in my opinion, so lets not take thoes too much into consideration.)

If you get rid of the Speed Bonus, The Jag (with out snakes) would barely be able to get 6km with all skills 5, and fit with a pair of polycarb I rigs, 3 overdrive IIs, and a T2 MWD. Thats a bit more reasonable for a non-interceptor all out speed fit.

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.17 18:40:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Arkios Odymei
BTW, to get an Idea about how fast this proposed Jaguar will be going, Open up EFT and load up a Republic fleet Firetail. The stock speed is the same as the Jaguar (325m/s) and it has the 5% speed bonus aswell. Also, the mass is slightly higher than the proposed Jaguar mass (1,150,000 kg vs 1,100,000 kg), which means that the proposed Jaguar will be slightly faster then what EFT will show about the Firetail.

As for the Jag being limited to only 3 low slots, while maintaining the proposed 5% speed bonus... With just a pair of Polycarb I rigs (Which ppl will use, as many already use them on interceptors), the Jag would be moving at about 4.8km/s. add one Overdirve II, about 5.8km/s. Add a second, about 6.8km/s. And you will still have 1 low slot to play with...

In this last low slot, you can use a damage mod, MAPC if you need... or you can even throw on another Overdrive II or Nanofiber II to push your speed over the 7.5km/s mark. (Add some Low grade snakes to that, 10km/s. High Grades, almost 12km/s... But Snakes are imba in my opinion, so lets not take thoes too much into consideration.)

If you get rid of the Speed Bonus, The Jag (with out snakes) would barely be able to get 6km with all skills 5, and fit with a pair of polycarb I rigs, 3 overdrive IIs, and a T2 MWD. Thats a bit more reasonable for a non-interceptor all out speed fit.


Not disagreeing here, but, what about the vagabond reaching 6k with polys and 3 OD?

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.17 19:34:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Arkanjuca
Not disagreeing here, but, what about the vagabond reaching 6k with polys and 3 OD?
A Vaga doesnt have the agility of a frigate, Costs a heap load more than any Interceeptor (or any T2 Frigate for that matter), and therefore is not realy in the same class as Interceptors.

The Reason I feel that this woudld be an issue for the Jag is that it would outclass many interceptors in price, survivability, tackling, damage, and nearly their speed aswell. It would be crossing over into the interceptor niche a bit too much, where as the Vaga is in a completely different role/class all together.

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.18 18:45:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Arkios Odymei
Originally by: Arkanjuca
Not disagreeing here, but, what about the vagabond reaching 6k with polys and 3 OD?
A Vaga doesnt have the agility of a frigate, Costs a heap load more than any Interceeptor (or any T2 Frigate for that matter), and therefore is not realy in the same class as Interceptors.

The Reason I feel that this woudld be an issue for the Jag is that it would outclass many interceptors in price, survivability, tackling, damage, and nearly their speed aswell. It would be crossing over into the interceptor niche a bit too much, where as the Vaga is in a completely different role/class all together.


I really liked the 5% bonus to velocity, it would be the line of vigil->jaguar->vagabond. So, what do you suggest to tweak around without loosing this bonus?

Also, if you compare the jag with poly, any interceptor that fits a poly will be faster than it.

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.19 02:38:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 19/06/2008 02:54:44
Originally by: Arkanjuca
I really liked the 5% bonus to velocity, it would be the line of vigil->jaguar->vagabond. So, what do you suggest to tweak around without loosing this bonus?

Also, if you compare the jag with poly, any interceptor that fits a poly will be faster than it.



The reason I dont think the 5% velocity bonus would work at all is that in order to keep the speed down to a reasonable level, you would need to directly counter (and therefore waste) the bonus by either giving the jaguar a fat mass (much like it currently has) or nerfing its stock velocity. Either way it would result in the waste of the bonus, because you can end up having the same speeds if you dont nerf the stats, forget the 5% velocity bonus, and actualy put something usefull.

As I stated earlier in the thread, I think a Tracking bonus would be a good fit for the Jag. It is already the fastest AF around (even without the proposed velocity bonus), and if it gets its mass tweaked it will be even faster. As the fastest moving AF, it will need the additional tracking the most, and since it has a double damage bonus and a the proposed Falloff bonus, it rounds out the gun bonuses quite nicely.


Also It doesnt matter if a speed fit Interceptor can go faster, all it matters is that the Jag would be able to cross the boundary into "combat" interceptor speeds (IE- Blasteranis, Gat-Pulse Crusader, Rocket Malediction...) which are interceptor speeds none the less.

EadTaes
Minmatar
d o o m
Posted - 2008.06.19 03:37:00 - [45]
 

I like this.

The part i like best is switching the falloff and optimal bonuses on the Wolf and Jaguar. The way they are right now, those bonus make the ships dysfunctional with their slot layout. I dunno if int eh other races their is a simmiller problem just just doing that simple fix will at least make minmatar AF a much more viable.

But as noted the speed bonus on the Jaguar could be to much. But then again it's minmatar. IF their is at least one thing minmatar is good at, it's speed. So it wouldn't matter to much as long as other AFs cant rival other ceptors. But a small mass increase could easily tips the scales just right.

And the default T2 resit should definitely be built into the hulls and not be incorporated as bonus ripoffs.

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.21 11:14:00 - [46]
 

Changed velocity bonus to tracking on jaguar, or else, it would get too much in ceptor range.

Ayeson
Hard Knocks Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.21 14:19:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Ayeson on 21/06/2008 14:19:48
always had problems with AF's...but i'm liking the hawk changes, especially the ROF, i would rather have a ROF then range anyways on a hawk...

good job, keep it up!

/SIGNED

Seriya
Caldari
LogiTech Systems
Posted - 2008.06.21 15:47:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Seriya on 21/06/2008 15:52:12
"Hi I'm a T1 Cruiser with a Web, a Point, a Neut and some random drones."

You're still toast.

HACs have the same problem with BS but at least they're way faster. Assfrigs tend to move slower than HACs right now, so what's the point?

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.06.21 16:55:00 - [49]
 

Thats how I would like to see it :D:D:D

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.09 06:10:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Seriya
Edited by: Seriya on 21/06/2008 15:52:12
"Hi I'm a T1 Cruiser with a Web, a Point, a Neut and some random drones."

You're still toast.

HACs have the same problem with BS but at least they're way faster. Assfrigs tend to move slower than HACs right now, so what's the point?

Giving AF more manueverability will allow good players to work around his situation, like HACs.
I think AFs should be faster than HACs, but that would involve a lot more work on the issue anyways.

Anjelle
Caldari
Freelancer Union
Posted - 2008.07.09 06:55:00 - [51]
 

Yes please. I have found little reason to jump into an AF for a long time now.

eragon alseen
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.05 03:37:00 - [52]
 

Add this thread to the assembly hall so we can vote this on for next CSM meeting

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2008.08.05 06:40:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Arkanjuca
mass adjustment and 4th bonus!

i support this idea

the changes on sisi are nice but not enough to justify the pricetag.

Andre Coeurl
Gallente
TOHA Heavy Industries
TOHA Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.08.05 14:23:00 - [54]
 

/SIGNED
I fully endorse the basic reasoning by the OP, AF badly need a real boost, and this proposal looks like the best I've seen around.

There can be a lot of possible discussion on which bonuses are needed for the various AFs, but that is in fact thinking about the details, the overall concept is great.
Very Happy

I personally think that, keeping the resistances as they are and changing slots layout more in line with cruiser/HAC ratio, it could be interesting to give them a 4th bonus meant for survivability instead than damage related ones (e.g., MWD cap bonus for Enyo, sig radius or repper bonus for Ishkur), or a very specific bonus for a weapon type (e.g., a blaster range bonus for Enyo, a drone speed bonus for Ishkur).
But then again, the specific slot-bonus balance discussion could go in another thread altogether...


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