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Mark Galean
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.02 13:15:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Mark Galean on 02/06/2008 13:27:59
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.



No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.

You really need to read the EULA again :
http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/eula.asp

Especially section 6: TERMINATION; SUSPENSION OF ACCOUNT:
Quote:
ii. Termination of EULA
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if:

(i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due;

(ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide;

(iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or

(iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you.

CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account.Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section.


You are paying for a SUBSCRIPTION that can be CANCELLED at ANY TIME for ANY REASON and ANY REASONABLE GROUND THEY SEE FIT.

(Go directly to jail, do not collect $200 if passing start. Wait untill account is unlocked to throw a dice again).

Edit: Emphasised the parts that show you that CCP can do whatever hoot they want with your account.

Empress Norton
Posted - 2008.06.02 13:17:00 - [62]
 

well I think the idea is , if you get scammed, well, EVE is harsh: sucked in - pay more attention next time

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2008.06.02 13:25:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars


for all those that will say "it is because you lose RL money on it", well and you don't lose RL money by the subscription cost when you get scammed and lose gametime and grinding time?.



No you don't lose RL money, in what way do you think you do? You pay to play the game, doesn't matter how you play it, or if you fall for some scam and lose your isk, isk which belongs to ccp anyway.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2008.06.02 13:32:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Malcanis

Have you ever actually met a lawyer? Intimidating people with their knowledge of the law is pretty much their defining characteristic.


Only if your understanding of a lawyer is based on popular tv-productions.


Indeed, most lawyers couldn't intimidate a feildmouse.

Taint
Caldari
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2008.06.02 16:04:00 - [65]
 

some people just deserve to loose their isk or items, its your own dam foult if u get scammed.

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.02 17:17:00 - [66]
 

OP (and several others) needs not to drink and think at the same time, its just plain embarassing that such stupidity actually gets written.


ETC and Characters are traded via CCP (otherwise its the ban hammer), they have a responsibility to make sure what you buy is what you get. You get scammed its their fault as they provide a trustworthy way for its customers to do each others favors by trading ISK or desired skilled characters.

As for how the game is run and how to play the game, the OP should try to understand that they are very different things, i'm think the best of him by saying he's drunk and my collie has more intelligence than he's displaying at present.

Oh!, yes CCP can ban you for wearing red socks on a tuesday if they wanted (just like a pub landlord in the UK can), its thier game, they decide who plays, your money allows you the right to connect only at thier pleasure not yours.

/rant

Schani Kratnorr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.06.02 17:33:00 - [67]
 

To the OP.

Your question is loaded. You equal scamming with fraud and breach of EULA.

In-game, in-character scams are totally a part of the game. If I can get someone to trust me enoug to place valuables in my hand, logic dictates that I have the choice to run off with it.

On the other hand, if I decide to break the EULA is have stepped across the magic line in the sand, and would be subject to sanctions from CCP.


Some people seem to think that stealing everything from a corporation is against the EULA. Unless I broke the EULA or the LAW doing so, there is nothing wrong and it's all part of the game.

Other, less worthwile games, may have policies that cater to a younger crowd, and as such may need rules to govern those cases that see customers looted of their valuables. In EVE however, you either learn from your mistakes or you succumb to the harsh realities - that anything not directly controlled by YOU is up for grabs.

Nothing in EVE is freely convertable to Real Life money, and as such it does not have any material value beyond the borders of the game world. Some people may think that a certain ship is "worth" X number of U.S.Dollah, but the EULA forbids ietm/isk trade outside sacntioned methods (secure gametime/char trade).

Fraud, scamming, theft and broken dreams are as much part of the game as Veldspar is. The sooner you get into the mindset of EVE the better off you will be.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2008.06.03 07:26:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
OP (and several others) needs not to drink and think at the same time, its just plain embarassing that such stupidity actually gets written.


ETC and Characters are traded via CCP (otherwise its the ban hammer), they have a responsibility to make sure what you buy is what you get. You get scammed its their fault as they provide a trustworthy way for its customers to do each others favors by trading ISK or desired skilled characters.

/rant


first of "ditto"..

secondly:
so they don't provide the service for ingame trading, contracts etc. ? ow i didn't know.. so who does?
so your argument is as dead as a guy that just got hit by a 12-7 ^^

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2008.06.03 07:29:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
To the OP.

Your question is loaded. You equal scamming with fraud and breach of EULA.

In-game, in-character scams are totally a part of the game. If I can get someone to trust me enoug to place valuables in my hand, logic dictates that I have the choice to run off with it.



you don't seem to realize that it have nothing to do with rl fraud, since there is NO rl money involved in the scam.. you get the service you pay for, nothing more nothing less, so it cannot be a fraud or rl scam, only a isk scam of ingame items

Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.03 07:40:00 - [70]
 

to the OP:
the game is character based. therefore one character can scam another.

in game you cannot justify an account scaming another one! scaming is a choice of playing the game not using out of game resources.

try to think in mmoRPg terms!
for your characters the account does not exist!
selling characters: you do not sell 1 character into the control of another but to another account (´the account as such does not exist in the game universe).
ETCs: CCP mixed out of game with in game here but the principle is the same, you withdraw money for something that does not exist in the game universe.

therefore the implemented control mechanisms that have been installed for all trades, contracts etc can not apply!
you can't be scamed in game if you pay attention!
you can be mislead by manipulated character sheets, ETCs etc out of game without there being a safeguard but the sole decision of yes/no.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2008.06.03 11:10:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Mark Galean
stuff...
Edit: Emphasised the parts that show you that CCP can do whatever hoot they want with your account.


You're the kind of person that EULAs with invalid clauses were originally invented for.


Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.06.03 11:59:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Avon on 03/06/2008 16:50:26
Originally by: Pan Crastus
You're the kind of person that EULAs with invalid clauses were originally invented for.



It doesn't really make much difference.
A judge isn't going to be able to force CCP to provide its service to someone it doesn't want to. At worst CCP would have to pay costs and the outstanding portion of the current subscription.
More likely, however, is that it would never get to trial.

CCP can restrict their service as they see fit. That part of the EULA is perfectly valid. Unless you could prove they were doing it in a discriminatory manner then there would be no case to answer; just the same way as a shop can refuse to serve you, or a bus can refuse you as a passenger, or a bank can decline your request for a loan. It may not be great for customer service, but they are certainly entitled to do so.

Maximor
ldiocracy
RED.Legion
Posted - 2008.06.03 12:55:00 - [73]
 

This is not the first time this subject has been broached, and it certainly won't be the last. For me, at least, part of the allure of Eve is that there is no "Ban Stick" safety net.

In every other MMO that I have played, there was always a set of rules that provided a safety net for the player base. In most games, the mechanics and rules didn't even allow for something like piracy to exist. At worst, someone traded you an item that looked like another, much rarer and more expensive item, and made off with your cash while you got stuck with a cheap imitation of what you really thought you were buying. In most cases, you could petition that transaction and get your money back.

In the virtual realm, rules can be forced upon players through software. You can hard code something into the code of a game that the player cannot circumvent. If you don't want them to be able to steal from another player, you can insert code that prevents it. In essence, you remove their choice, for the sake of game play.

In the real world, no such barrier exists. For example, there are laws and rules that say scamming is illegal. But that law, in and of itself, doesn't physically prevent the act of scamming. Anyone who chooses to do so, can engage in the act of scamming. And while there can be consequences to that act, there is no physical barrier that prevents someone from scamming. Reality does have a basic set of rules though. Things like gravity. "What goes up, must come down." Things like physics. "If you want to go up, and stay up, you have to be able to exert an equal or greater force that opposes gravity."

Eve is a sandbox. Just like the real world. And just like the real world, basic laws exist. You must use a jump gate or jump drive to move between systems. POS's use a set ammount of fuel, every hour. Minmatar must use a quantity of duct tape that is equal or greater to the inverse square of the mass of their ships.

Okay, so the last one isn't quite true, but you get the idea. Eve allows you the choice to do practically anything. And while those choices may come with unpleasant consequences, you are free to make them.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2008.06.03 13:00:00 - [74]
 

CCP would get into trouble if they turned a blind eye to GTC/Character scamming because it involves the transfer of RL money and that falls into the RL realm of fraud.

CCP allow in-game scamming because it doesn't, I don't think they openly approve of scamming but don't really want to get involved in policing everything. Customer service isn't exactly a strong point, we get bare bones coverage. I think I went 3 months with an open petition which I eventually closed because I found a player with the answer to my in-game problem before CCP.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2008.06.03 16:51:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Veldya
CCP would get into trouble if they turned a blind eye to GTC/Character scamming because it involves the transfer of RL money and that falls into the RL realm of fraud.

CCP allow in-game scamming because it doesn't, I don't think they openly approve of scamming but don't really want to get involved in policing everything. Customer service isn't exactly a strong point, we get bare bones coverage. I think I went 3 months with an open petition which I eventually closed because I found a player with the answer to my in-game problem before CCP.


okey don't we have any lawyers from iceland that can check on this?
i asked a lawyer freind (but i am from danmark so not sure if it would apply) and he told me the same thing that i concluded, that this could not be considered a breach of the law if ccp allowed scamming with these, since the stuff getting scammed is 100% ccp's property and all you do is moving around ingame data which is not yours, so unless you scam the gtc out of some ones hand which actually could be considered a rl scam since the gtc is your property, then there would be no problem.

so i still don't get why it is okey to scam billions of isk in mods etc. but not okey to scam them in charecter sale or gtc's, as long as the only thing you scam is isk?

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.06.03 16:55:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars

so i still don't get why it is okey to scam billions of isk in mods etc. but not okey to scam them in charecter sale or gtc's, as long as the only thing you scam is isk?

If you scam a character sale the owner loses the transfer fee. That is real money.
If you scam a timecode then the seller loses out on the cost of the code.

Fraud:
Obtaining goods, money, or services through deception.

If the person scammed has a tangible financial loss (as opposed to some missing pixels), then it has ceased to be a "legitimate" in-game scam.

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.06.03 17:05:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
you gotta choice, either one or the other. this "mix and match **** gotta go" :P

This is an idiotic statement. Why does this "mix and match **** gotta go" exactly? What logical justification is there for such an assertion?

What this post is really about is the fact that you don't like scamming, and by asserting that CCP must allow no scamming or all scamming (including scams that deal with real cash, which is not only a bad idea but illegal) you are only giving the impression that you are just unhappy with the ability to scam people in general.

Hegbard
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:54:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Taedrin

Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but I would believe that a game as widespread as WoW, this would be challenged if it didn't hold any legal weight.


It has been challenged not just in WoW, but also in other games and I seem to recall one case where the court didn't accept that piece of the EULA and lots of other cases that were settled outside of courts to avoid a nasty precedent (for game companies).

I'm pretty sure that part of the EULA is void at least in Sweden since we do have some really strong consumer protection laws. And the company I work for has a similar paragraph in the EULA of the service we sell and our lawyer just laughed at us and said something like: "add it, it won't change anything, but at least it will scare away a few".

Relyen
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:57:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Relyen on 03/06/2008 20:57:02
There is one very simple thing you and others can do to prevent 99% of all scams.

Use your brain.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2008.06.04 03:38:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars

okey don't we have any lawyers from iceland that can check on this?
i asked a lawyer freind (but i am from danmark so not sure if it would apply) and he told me the same thing that i concluded, that this could not be considered a breach of the law if ccp allowed scamming with these, since the stuff getting scammed is 100% ccp's property and all you do is moving around ingame data which is not yours, so unless you scam the gtc out of some ones hand which actually could be considered a rl scam since the gtc is your property, then there would be no problem.

so i still don't get why it is okey to scam billions of isk in mods etc. but not okey to scam them in charecter sale or gtc's, as long as the only thing you scam is isk?


Within reason yes CCP owns the property within EVE but for GTCs we are talking about a payment for service, not for property, they are not something that has any physical form in-game. Can't acquire them in-game, they are sourced from outside the game via real money.

There have been court rulings that say EULAs and the like do not hold much water because they void themselves by denying you rights you have via common law. They can put down that agreeing to the EULA CCP can come to your place and shoot you in the head without any legal consequences, when there is a conflict between contract law and other Law it is contract law that loses.


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