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JafoPBCFR
One Stop Mining Shop
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:51:00 - [31]
 

Simple version of it is. GTC CHAR scams involve Credit card/ DBT fraud.

ingame scams isk to game item etc etc. Dont involve RL fraud. And Internationl banking laws.

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:07:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk

I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.



I seriously doubt you have ever graduated. Because such an achievement would probably stop you from running around like a 12-yr old and trying to intimidate people with your vast knowledge (lol) of the law. Seriously, get over yourself.


Tom Tomahawk
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:09:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
The ultimate fudge factor lies in the wording of 6.ii.(iv):
Originally by: "EULA"
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: [Ö] CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct.
The whole "in CCP's discretion" part allows for quite a bit of leeway, but isn't likely to be used unless they want to mass-murder their customer relationship.


Nice try, but read exactly what i wrote above. If there is a breach of the EULA, you might get a ban, i never questioned that. You should provide the headline of the quoted section aswell:

6. TERMINATION; SUSPENSION OF ACCOUNT

A. By CCP for Termination of the Game
...
B. By CCP for Breach or Misconduct


What people claim in this thread is that CCP may arbitrarily ban you whenever they want to, just because it's their game - not understanding that CCP has the obligation to fulfill their part of the signed contract, as long as the other party is fulfilling their part.
There is nothing in the EULA that allows CCP to "...ban you for whatever reason they want". And i knew it before reading the EULA because such a stipulation would fundamentally oppose the principles of contract law, and doesn't exist for a good reason.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:24:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
What people claim in this thread is that CCP may arbitrarily ban you whenever they want to, just because it's their game - not understanding that CCP has the obligation to fulfill their part of the signed contract, as long as the other party is fulfilling their part.
There is nothing in the EULA that allows CCP to "...ban you for whatever reason they want". And i knew it before reading the EULA because such a stipulation would fundamentally oppose the principles of contract law, and doesn't exist for a good reason.
…and if you took your time to read the section quoted, it says exactly that: CCP reserves the right to determine what counts as misconduct, and can choose to terminate your account based on that. Again (this time highlighted and cut down to point):
Quote:
CCP may close all your Accounts if CCP becomes aware of player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct.

Oh, and I didn't include the headlines because I assumed the reader would be clever enough to figure those out by himself.

Granted, CCP cannot "arbitrarily ban you just because it's their game" – you're absolutely right there. However, they can rather arbitrarily determine what counts as misconduct, and ban you for that.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:25:00 - [35]
 

From the TOS (which forms part of the eula)
Quote:
#


# CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userís account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

# We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.


If you didn't *want* to sign up to those conditions of use, you can just cancel and walk away.

Helen
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:57:00 - [36]
 

ITT Internet lawyerz Laughing

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.06.01 22:01:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk

I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.



I seriously doubt you have ever graduated. Because such an achievement would probably stop you from running around like a 12-yr old and trying to intimidate people with your vast knowledge (lol) of the law. Seriously, get over yourself.




Have you ever actually met a lawyer? Intimidating people with their knowledge of the law is pretty much their defining characteristic.

Tom Tomahawk
Posted - 2008.06.01 22:07:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Avon
From the TOS (which forms part of the eula)
Quote:
#


# CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userís account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

# We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.


If you didn't *want* to sign up to those conditions of use, you can just cancel and walk away.


This is a very surprising regulation. You have a contract between two parties and one party reserves the right to step back from the contract without compensation - you don't see that often. And in some legal systems such a stipulation is void because it is unusual and surprising.
But whether this stipulation is void in this particular contract is something i can't say for sure, i'm not a lawyer (but at least its VERY fragile).

And my argumentation in prior posts in this thread was based on the fact that such a stipulation does not exist.
So yes, i admit, you got me there.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.06.01 23:04:00 - [39]
 

what ever happens CCP owns your souls now and your first born must be names after a ship Twisted Evil

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2008.06.02 00:12:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/06/2008 00:14:58
well what people mainly forget is that charecter transfer is NOT buying a charecter, it is just a SERVICE of moving one charecter CHOSEN by a person which chose a ingame item for another ingame item.

you pay for the SERVICE only. nothing else, and if the person transfer another charecter too you or he doesn't transfer the isk to you, then ONLY ingame items have been scammed with.
the rl money have NOT been touched since you have been provided with the service that you payid for in real cash, (which is STILL just a transfer, and if you payid you get a transfer, nothing else).

so there is NO illegality in charecter scamming according to law.

so anything with "it is because of rl scamming is illegal because it involves rl money" is bs, since it have nothing to do with scamming money, you get the service you paid for in cash, if you get something ingame or not has nothing to do with what you payid for.

the same gtc.
the person giving rl cash GETS what he payid for and gets the GTC, if he then scams some one for ingame isk it have NOTHING to do with the RL cash, since you do not PAY him rl cash to get playtime, no you give him isk.

for those people saying "there is no way of defending against it and that is why"...
are you really that naiv?? i means seriously hehe..
there is as many ways and even MORE ways to defend yourself against char and especially gtc scammers as there are of defending yourself against ingame scammers, so wake up.

well untill now i have seen NOTHING that gives a reason why there is a difference in the moral or legally views on this.

Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
Posted - 2008.06.02 00:31:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Mika Meroko on 02/06/2008 00:47:49


very simple:

GTC and character scams involves RL money, credit card fraud, paypal not happy etc..

stuff that can LAND YOU IN JAIL IN RL...

you know, a place where you becomes a prison *****.

CCP doesnt want to deal with courts (many complications, especially different countries have different laws...) when the scammed sues the scammer in RL which the courts will bug CCP to provide information...

hence the EULA... and CCP's stance on no scamming on things that involves RL money...

yes, scamming GTCs, character trades, etc is akin to credit card fraud and other stuff that can land you in jail...(in some places in the world.)

while misrepresentation of item in game scam for money in game well.. doesnt involve any country's legal currency... (technically, RMT is a different issue, and CCP's offical stance is no RMT in game....)



Remember,

There IS a line between reality and the sandbox that we live in..(god I need a life...)


if crime crosses that line.. then prepare for RL trouble.... =P

and hope you got vasaline =P



as for above:

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/06/2008 00:14:58
well what people mainly forget is that charecter transfer is NOT buying a charecter, it is just a SERVICE of moving one charecter CHOSEN by a person which chose a ingame item for another ingame item.


True.. but at the same time, CCP can get into trouble if they let it happen... how do you feel if you brought a ferrai and got a plastic shell of one by your dealer?

Originally by: CrestoftheStars

you pay for the SERVICE only. nothing else, and if the person transfer another charecter too you or he doesn't transfer the isk to you, then ONLY ingame items have been scammed with.
the rl money have NOT been touched since you have been provided with the service that you payid for in real cash, (which is STILL just a transfer, and if you payid you get a transfer, nothing else).

so there is NO illegality in charecter scamming according to law.



I wouldnt be so sure about that...IE: Ebay: I had something listed for sale, you paid for it, you get something different... I can get into big trouble depending on which country I am in...

how ever, if you only listed the character, than by all means, strip everything....

but if you listed it... yeah...

yeah.... nuff said...and Ebay wont like that too .

Originally by: CrestoftheStars


so anything with "it is because of rl scamming is illegal because it involves rl money" is bs, since it have nothing to do with scamming money, you get the service you paid for in cash, if you get something ingame or not has nothing to do with what you payid for.

the same gtc.
the person giving rl cash GETS what he payid for and gets the GTC, if he then scams some one for ingame isk it have NOTHING to do with the RL cash, since you do not PAY him rl cash to get playtime, no you give him isk.

for those people saying "there is no way of defending against it and that is why"...
are you really that naiv?? i means seriously hehe..
there is as many ways and even MORE ways to defend yourself against char and especially gtc scammers as there are of defending yourself against ingame scammers, so wake up.

well untill now i have seen NOTHING that gives a reason why there is a difference in the moral or legally views on this.



Algebra... GTC = money.... think Algebra.

and yes.. there are ways... Secure Trade.




There is no moral/legal blah blah.. just a trail of very annoying paper work for CCP if they let it happen with stuff resembling RMT

I am pretty sure CCP's reason for not letting it is due to the annoying issues associated with them sorting with it...


Remember, People can sue for the most ridiculous things.. and sometimes they win... !!!

which can get expensive for CCP as they are an party involved...

Sniper Wolf18
Gallente
A Pretty Pony Princess
General Tso's Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.02 01:19:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
i don't see eve as a free sandbox the way it is run, i see it more like a sandbox where there are some teachers looking at the kids and randomly vobally attacking them for the stuff that the others do too but it is okey that they do it, but not for the other kid to do it..


i see eve as a sandbox with no teachers.

Though if you started picking up things with your mind, flying around and using mind control on other people in the "sandbox" an intelligence agency will probably want to know how and why you can do this and how best to stop you.

PS: im very ****in tired, so if this dosent make sense, kick me in the balls!

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.06.02 01:33:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Have you ever actually met a lawyer? Intimidating people with their knowledge of the law is pretty much their defining characteristic.


Only if your understanding of a lawyer is based on popular tv-productions.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.02 01:54:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
And my argumentation in prior posts in this thread was based on the fact that such a stipulation does not exist.
So yes, i admit, you got me there.


Other than second life the game makers hold those rights so that they can delete and/or remove items/chars as they see fit.

ShardowRhino
Caldari
Torque Theory
Posted - 2008.06.02 02:58:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: CrestoftheStars
i was sitting here wondering, thinking about scamming and the whole concept around it in eve.
so why is it allowed in eve?.
well i got to a pretty good conclusion but then i stumbled upon something that destroyes ANY and all argument to why scamming is allowed in eve.

Originally by: CCP kieron

17. Scamming ETCís and character sales are not allowed, please petition if you suspect you have been scammed. When buying and selling characters, please note that by confirming the trade via EVEmail, you ensure that the facts of the matter are documented, should any later disputes arise that require GM attention.

P


There is no reason for CCP to choose that they must allow ETC or account theft if they allow in game scams.

ETC= money . Accounts = money. ETCs were purchased therefore scamming will eventually result in no one buying them which means less income for CCP. People losing their accounts means people wont be paying for them. Also account theft can lead to identity theft due to billing information being filed with the account. That could bite CCP in the butt since some lawyer will hammer things out so that CCP was aiding the identity theives by having no policy against account theft that led to the identity theft. Even if the lawsuit fails CCP still needs to hire a defense lawyer which results in lost RL $$$.

Now if someone scams another player into buying the "holy tritanium" that costs 100mil due to its supposed magical properties, thats on the player that bought it. RL money was not traded, CCp was not put in a position to lose RL money and no RL theft was commited. A fool will soon be parted with his in game money. If you buy a "caldari navy Raven" that looks just like an ibis, well your to stupid to have gotten that much isk you were scammed out of,so all is made right in the world by such actions.

Remember that in game goods,e-goods have absolutely no monetary value. In order to ever play eve you have to agree to such terms. Regardless of how long it takes you to make the isk to buy the item or how much time you spent mining veldspar to produce it, that item doesnt truly exist and you also agreed that it has no RL value. Isk has no RL value if you play eve since you also agreed that there is no RL monetary equivalent, meaning if you got scammed its your loss of agreed nothingness.

Now if CCP allowed for people to scam ETC and accounts which are both paid for with RL monies then CCP leaves themselves open to RL courts and RL cases. RL lawyers will be asking CCP to pay RL damages in RL money. Anyone that has a slight idea on how bussiness works (virtually none play eve) they would realize that losing RL money constantly because they don't put in place a few simple rules is foolish. Why bother running and building eve if your determined to lose what RL money you generate? its a game but its a business.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2008.06.02 03:10:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Avon
From the TOS (which forms part of the eula)
Quote:
#


# CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userís account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

# We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.


If you didn't *want* to sign up to those conditions of use, you can just cancel and walk away.


This is a very surprising regulation. You have a contract between two parties and one party reserves the right to step back from the contract without compensation - you don't see that often. And in some legal systems such a stipulation is void because it is unusual and surprising.
But whether this stipulation is void in this particular contract is something i can't say for sure, i'm not a lawyer (but at least its VERY fragile).

And my argumentation in prior posts in this thread was based on the fact that such a stipulation does not exist.
So yes, i admit, you got me there.


Such stipulations are actually pretty common amongst MMOGs.

World of Warcraft -
Quote:
Blizzardís Absolute Right to Suspend, Terminate and/or Delete the Account.
BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE THE ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME WITH ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most account suspensions, terminations and/or deletions are the result of violations of this Terms of Use or the EULA.


Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but I would believe that a game as widespread as WoW, this would be challenged if it didn't hold any legal weight.

masternerdguy
Gallente
Meerkat Maner
Posted - 2008.06.02 03:24:00 - [47]
 

because ccp does not deal with in game crime to force you to take and evaluate economic risks.

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2008.06.02 05:19:00 - [48]
 

Easy answer, it takes a load off of the GMs.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2008.06.02 05:37:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Hannobaal
Asking why it's allowed to scam people in the game, within the game rules and game mechanics, when it isn't allowed to scam them out of game, is almost like asking why its allowed to kill people in Eve when it isn't allowed in real life.


This is kind of stupid thing to say. That scamming is allowed ingame is ultimately CCP's decision and nothing else. Most obviously to keep their moderators from becoming overworked, in addition to any nice philosophical ideas about players ingame freedom.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.06.02 05:41:00 - [50]
 

ERRMMM

12.7 What is a scam?

A scam is the act of obtaining goods from other players through misinformation, confusion, pressure or by taking advantage of basic trust. Players enter into business dealings with others at their own risk and are strongly urged to exercise good judgement and common sense when trading. Scams that relate to issues such as password scams or account theft scams are more serious and will result in an immediate ban.

Game masters may intercede if a player illegally obtained items from another through use of an exploit. However, if a scam is reported and investigation shows that exploiting was not involved, depending on the circumstances and the severity of the scam, we may choose not to intervene.

12.8 How can I spot a scam?

While we make every effort to create a fun and safe environment for our players, there will be times when someone devises a way to take advantage of his fellow gamers. Knowledge and caution are paramount to avoid falling prey to a scammer.

We will make every effort to educate our community on ways to spot common scams and avoid them. However, the ultimate responsibility for being a smart player lies with the individual. Those conducting scams will be warned, suspended or permanently banned, depending on the severity of the scam as determined by our investigation.

If a deal sounds too good to be true, it probably is. "Buyer beware" should be the credo of all players doing business with casual acquaintances or complete strangers in the game.


The point is that someone who were to run an IPO but then run with the money. Such that he used "A scam is the act of obtaining goods from other players through misinformation, confusion, pressure or by taking advantage of basic trust."


The problem is that you have to prove that person misinformed and took advantage of trust.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.06.02 06:08:00 - [51]
 

It's pretty darn simple.
INGAME scamming, made possible by INGAME means, zero theoretical (if not practical) real-life cash value = ok
Scamming anything that involves OOG real-life cash transactions (GTC sales, character transfers) = not ok
I see absolutely no problem.

Rhak Amharr
Minmatar
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.02 08:14:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Armoured C
what ever happens CCP owns your souls now and your first born must be names after a ship Twisted Evil

I'll call mine Moa and skill it up to scam GTCs.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:04:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Misanth on 02/06/2008 09:06:46
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
The basic principle that contracts are binding can be found in any legal system, it's thousands of years old, without it our modern society couldn't function.
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.



Tippia already answered the question for you, but I'm just quoting it. I have a feeling you're one of those that'd harrass people to respond if they didn't, and try to spin whatever facts they provide into whatever you want it to be. :)

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
The ultimate fudge factor lies in the wording of 6.ii.(iv):
Originally by: "EULA"
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: [Ö] CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct.
The whole "in CCP's discretion" part allows for quite a bit of leeway, but isn't likely to be used unless they want to mass-murder their customer relationship.


That's generally what most MMO's have. I used to be GM in a fairly small MMO, at our peak period we had 10-15k subscribers. We had the same lines in our EULA as quoted above, and if you check World of Warcraft, Everquest, Lineage, etc etc, I bet you'll find it in every game. During my 4-5 years as GM I don't know of a single case where we used this rule to kick a player out of the game, but we had it in the EULA as a security.

There's rare cases of players harrassing others but not really violating any general 'rules', like being a racist, using game mechanics to grief, etc etc. Some players are just simply, a 'bully', and I can think of situations where one jerk easily can ruin the game for thousands of players.

This rule is also for protection for CCP. There might be situations where they ban a player for doing something bad, but they can't really prove it, so they can always rely on this line in the EULA. One thing you often hear as GM is that players blame their "4 year old sister" their "mum" or "my drunk friend", etc. Sometimes they claim stupid things like "my friend and I got ****ed at eachother, so he logged in and did it" (account sharing not allowed, ip checks, mmkay, not very bright comment). Anyway, back on track; In these cases, instead of trying to prove the player is 'wrong', you can just kick him out of the game and put the game resources on doing bug fixes and help a player that isn't causing problems. You can prove what ip/account that was used, not who's at the keyboard.

Is that a good thing from an ethic/moral point of view? Can be debateable, but it certainly makes it better for the lionpart of the gamers. Is it a good thing legally? Personally I think not, you pay for a service but you can be treated like crap. But it does make sense to have it, at the end of the day it is there to provide a better service for the majority of the players, and good guys won't have issues with this, just those living in the greyzone.

Primnproper
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:31:00 - [54]
 

Because scamming in game is 'in character' scamming and is totally in keeping with the feel and backstory of the game universe.

Whereas, scamming people for GTCs and characters is 'out of character' scamming and does not take place within the eve universe, therefore it is not in keeping with the feel and backstory of the setting because the setting is the real world.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:34:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 02/06/2008 09:40:56
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 02/06/2008 09:37:16
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 02/06/2008 09:34:35
However, personally I think that certain help from concord part would be useful to make certain ingame stuff possible, like banking. Since there is little actual risk from player side involved in not fulfilling your contracts ingame, these ideas wont get off the ground. CCP could maybe introduce an optional add-on to current contracts that would make them have bigger consequences if you dont fulfill them, like concord aggression for a large period of time.. But that is story of another thread methinks.
edit: typos

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:38:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk

I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.



QFT, people who answer posts with "read the EULA" have usually no clue whatsoever about contract law, validity of EULA terms etc. ...

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:52:00 - [57]
 

While it is ultimately CCP's decision whether they want to allow scamming ingame or not, there is a thin line between "successful scamming because the buyer is stupid" and "successful scamming because of game bugs / stupid UI". CCP have banned people several times when that line was crossed in their opinion, i.e. when people exploited bugs (like when BPCs were shown as BPOs on escrow).

Arguably, the UI is still very bad (it's not clear what the seller-provided title is and what the actual contents are), so it's not really 100% buyer stupidity that causes successful scams nowdays.


Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.06.02 11:47:00 - [58]
 

A Good Scammer takes your isk/ships.

A better Scammer befriends you, then takes your isk/ships

The best scammers are the ones who's names you'll never know. Yet Manage to scam the same person over and over.

Randy Gandhi
Capital Produce
Posted - 2008.06.02 11:49:00 - [59]
 

Because CCP are leet

Amastat
Caldari
Blue Ring Defence
Posted - 2008.06.02 11:58:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Amastat on 02/06/2008 11:58:54
Scamming is allowed because the hearts of the original DEV's are made from black obsidian taken from the ashed remains of the lava that destroyed Pompeii - forged in the blood of the countless millions killed from thousands of years of war.

Their hearts are also embed with the essence of pain, fear, torment, all of the horrors that we knew and dread. They also make a human sacrifice and drink the blood of a WoW player who recently died from a potent overdose of set grinding in this ritual.

In other words - CCP is metal; metal to the point where most WoW players who try EVE end up going mad and their heads explode Very Happy


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