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CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:44:00 - [1]
 

i was sitting here wondering, thinking about scamming and the whole concept around it in eve.
so why is it allowed in eve?.
well i got to a pretty good conclusion but then i stumbled upon something that destroyes ANY and all argument to why scamming is allowed in eve.

Originally by: CCP kieron

17. Scamming ETC’s and character sales are not allowed, please petition if you suspect you have been scammed. When buying and selling characters, please note that by confirming the trade via EVEmail, you ensure that the facts of the matter are documented, should any later disputes arise that require GM attention.


well i can understand that scamming is bad and when RL money is involved it can become a offence against rl law, but the service they are provided as they are will have no such backfire, since it just provide the the transfer, nothing more then that, and as such is not responsibel for any scam and cannot be hold responsible according to rl law for any scams that might happen.

so why isn't it allowed to scam these when scamming is allowed in eve?

so here is what i am looking for:
i am looking for some kind of logical rule or law that would make it worse for ccp and/or it's costumer to get a 2mill sp char scammed of them, or that 1-2billions scammed from them for a char, then to get scammed for X.billions isk in any other ingame way?.
and the same with gtc's where we are only talking about a few hundred mills.

for all those that will say "it is because you lose RL money on it", well and you don't lose RL money by the subscription cost when you get scammed and lose gametime and grinding time?.
you lose the same both ways, so why is one allowed and the other is not when it is not illegal to allow both?

i don't see eve as a free sandbox the way it is run, i see it more like a sandbox where there are some teachers looking at the kids and randomly vobally attacking them for the stuff that the others do too but it is okey that they do it, but not for the other kid to do it..

you gotta choice, either one or the other. this "mix and match **** gotta go" :P

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:48:00 - [2]
 

Because we revel in your angst.

Adonis 4174
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:49:00 - [3]
 

Scamming is not allowed when there is no defence. Ingame there is always a defence.

Andre Ricard
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:51:00 - [4]
 

The simple answer is that it isn't CCP's place to regulate what people do with their Internet Spacebucks. If you want to 'invest' in someone, you assume the risk. The risk and figuring out how far you can trust someone is one of the things that makes EVE interesting. ETC and character sale scams aren't allowed since they involve real money at some point in the equation and CCP doesn't want people getting discouraged with scams that potentially involve actual, real money.

I'm a little surprised you're complaining, too; subterfuge and trickery should be second nature to any CotS fan. Wink

Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:52:00 - [5]
 

Only thing I can really think of on that is that they want GTC trades and character transfers to provide strong competition to RMT for ISK, characters and ingame items both via the usual channels and ebay.

Obviously, that's not going to happen if 70% or better of "sanctioned" GTC or character trades for ISK turn out to be scams.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:58:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Misanth on 01/06/2008 14:58:58
You lose money all the time when playing EVE. One day this game don't exist anymore and all the subscription money has been for nothing. You lose money when you go to the movies, or to the restaurant, or when taking a trip in the local rollercoaster, etc etc.. your arguments are flawed.

The difference is quite obvious, you just either want to troll, or just disagree and thus you don't want to see things with an open mind. I'll try help you:

GTC is paid for by real life money. If you "scam" someone off that, you are stealing, and thus you can be legally be prosecuted - at least in most countries I know. The police may care more or less depending on it, in Sweden it would be considered 'shoplifting' as the sum is fairly low and you'd get a fine for doing it. But yah, it's against the law.

Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want. They can "scam" your items. The idea of allowing ingame scam is related to EVE as a whole. Piracy is a theft, scam is a theft, but both are related to CCPs 'intellectual property'. EVE also lets you shoot down peoples 'property', the game lets you 'kill' their capsules, at least one of the factions want to keep slaves, etc.

It's a huge difference between ingame scams and real life scams.

And at the end of the day, if the GM's would say scams are disallowed (you know, most mmo's are allowing it), imagine the workload it would be for the GM's to check for logs for every single scam that happened.. I used to be GM in a(nother) mmo, we didn't like scams but we didn't take actions against them and considered it a "trust issue between players" (if you lend stuff to others, don't expect it back). That was purely based on the workload it would give us to check logs etc etc. We would have to double our staff just to sort out issues like that, not very appealing. In the regard of GTC's, it's alot easier to sort that out.

NightF0x
Gallente
Intergalactic League of Terrorists
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:10:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: NightF0x on 01/06/2008 15:10:27
Like it was mentioned before, you have no way to defend yourself if someone scams you on a character sale. There is no way to verify the information that is given, such as negative sec status, actual wallet balance...etc. Your argument about grinding time and time spent on subscription don't hold water. There are in-game ways to prevent being scammed. Money spent on subscription and grinding are an entertainment value. You aren't wasting your time and money, you are receiving what you paid for. When a character scam happens, you don't get what you paid for and even more you paid real money for it, which can be considered fraud in some countries. So there are real consequences for scamming out of game transfers, such as characters.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:41:00 - [8]
 

Scamming is allowed ingame.
Character transfers and G/ETC sales are not exclusively ingame acivities, and thus are not allowed.

shady trader
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:43:00 - [9]
 

ISK offically has zero real world value. Where Character and GTC sales do have a real world value (£10 for Charater transfer). CCP can make that ever rules they want in the virtual world so they can say scamming is legal. However outside of the eve universe CCP do not make the laws, as such its still a crime to steal or aquire money or good by deception.

hence scamming in game for virtual cash =legal PVP scamming out of game is a crime hence not allowed.

Smantha Dering
Caldari
Profit Seekers
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:46:00 - [10]
 

In game, out of game. Also, if people started to scam character sales, ccp would lose the $20 transfer fees since nobody would trust character sales. Same with GTC sales.

Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:56:00 - [11]
 

Asking why it's allowed to scam people in the game, within the game rules and game mechanics, when it isn't allowed to scam them out of game, is almost like asking why its allowed to kill people in Eve when it isn't allowed in real life.

Tom Tomahawk
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:04:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.



No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:08:00 - [13]
 

I don't like in game scamming....

However....

In order for Eve to be the ruthless game that it is, players MUST be able free to act ruthlessly.

While I would like to see high sec space a bit safer from suicide attack, I would not change scamming rules (or the lack of them) at all (low sec and 0.0 are just fine....)

Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:10:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.



No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.


Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.

Tom Tomahawk
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:14:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.



No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.


Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.


That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.

Vagablonde
Minmatar
Ouruboros Trading
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:19:00 - [16]
 

no it matches with the eve online principle.


DHU InMe
Gallente
Corsairs Inc.
The Spire Collective
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:43:00 - [17]
 

You can also scam in other sandbox mmo...

I agree there not a lot of sandbox mmo, but still, you don't want eve to become "stupid proof" don't you ?

Look out for immature people that do anything and it alway work without no strategy, tactic, teamplay or what ever that make eve that is IT.

There alreay lot of barrier to protect people. If you want to help out, suggest WAY to improve protection AGAINST SCAMMING, not critic the fact that you can scam (unless you want a static economy that everything got the same price).

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:45:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk

That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.


Good job this isn't some international treaty then, isn't it?
CCP have the right to decide who they will provide their service to, and you agreed to that stipulation.

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2008.06.01 17:19:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.



No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.


Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.


That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.


When you agree to the terms of use, you agree that CCP can terminate your account for any (or no) reason at any time.

It's a pretty standard thing in subscription-based games.

ZERG RUSHKEKE
Gallente
Royal Enterprise
Bionic Dawn
Posted - 2008.06.01 17:23:00 - [20]
 

If you are stupid enough to fall for a scam then its your fault. There is always a defense agaisnt these things.

Tom Tomahawk
Posted - 2008.06.01 18:30:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk

That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.


Good job this isn't some international treaty then, isn't it?
CCP have the right to decide who they will provide their service to, and you agreed to that stipulation.


This is correct BEFORE the contract is made, but once it is signed by both parties, they may not arbitrarely deny service. They may ban you if you for example commit a violation against the EULA and rules you agreed upon by signing the contract, or they may refuse to extend the contract, but they can't deny access without reason. If they do, it's a breach of contract and you can sue them.

Captain Bringdown
Minmatar
Rage Against the Answering Machine
Posted - 2008.06.01 18:50:00 - [22]
 

Show me CCP's signature on any contract and you have a case Laughing

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.06.01 18:52:00 - [23]
 

if people like to fall for the

"let me check you navy raven setting by trading it to me to join our corp-no wait your fitting arn't good im going to keep it"

scams then it there own Darwinism fault i say

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.06.01 19:17:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.



No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.


Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.


That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.



Read the EULA. As for legal issues, remember this game is based in Iceland and we follow that law. I studied law in the country I live in (Sweden), but the knowledge I have from legal issues here doesn't relate to what's in EVE.

Tom Tomahawk
Posted - 2008.06.01 19:27:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.



No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.


Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.


That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.



Read the EULA. As for legal issues, remember this game is based in Iceland and we follow that law. I studied law in the country I live in (Sweden), but the knowledge I have from legal issues here doesn't relate to what's in EVE.


The basic principle that contracts are binding can be found in any legal system, it's thousands of years old, without it our modern society couldn't function.
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:11:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
The ultimate fudge factor lies in the wording of 6.ii.(iv):
Originally by: "EULA"
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: […] CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct.
The whole "in CCP's discretion" part allows for quite a bit of leeway, but isn't likely to be used unless they want to mass-murder their customer relationship.

ZW Dewitt
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:14:00 - [27]
 

There is no in-game scamming... only poor decisions.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:35:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: ZW Dewitt
There is no in-game scamming... only poor decisions.



/signed

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:40:00 - [29]
 

It allowed in game for the same reason its allowed in Monopoly, or Risk, or any other game. If you fool another player and reap the profits, there is no out-of-game form of redress.

ETC etc. are out-of-game transactions. Hence scamming is forbidden.

If you someone promises that you don't have to pay the rent for a hotel on Broadway in Monopoly, but he doesn't keep his word, there is nothing you can do. If somebody agrees with you to sell you his monopoly game, and you give him real money, but he keeps the game, you could take legal action.

Clear enough for you?

Zaqar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:43:00 - [30]
 

It's a game, there has to be some way to lose :P


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