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Zalathar
Minmatar
Trannyz
Posted - 2008.06.01 08:38:00 - [1]
 


Is PC game piracy really as big a problem as game developpers make it out to be?

At first i thought it was a bit of a scare that game makers were spreading, but after some investigation, it seems to be real, and a genuine problem for the game industry.

For a while the PC game market has not been growing, with revenue staying about the same, despite the increasing costs of development to conform to the higher quality standards expected of modern games. The console market on the other hand hass been booming over the past few years, with large increases in revenue, and many exclusive titles and such.

Its hard to think of many PC exclusives recently (other than strategy games, which are best on PC, or possibly), but when pressed, Crysis springs to mind. Crysis was produced by Crytek, a company with a record for good PC exclusives, for exapmle the fist Farcry (not the console remakes). Crysis was a beautiful game, ludicrously so, and thus it was very expensive to produce. I personally was expecting everyone with a PC wich could handle it to purchase the game, or in my case, to beef up the their rig to play it properly. Suprisingly, Crysis sold remarkably poorly, leaving the makers with a severly decreased revenue.

Why was this? Crysis has no DRM (digital rights management), meaning that the game was pretty easy to hack, and distribute illegaly, ie pirate, not pay for it. This of course leaves makers out of pocket, and following Crysis's fizzle, they announced that they can nolonger afford to make PC exclusives.

As we have already seen with Farcry's console follow-ups, great non-linear segments of Farcry , and now Crysis's sequel, will have to be removed to dum it down to the mass console crowd, and scale the graphics down to go with the less powerful processing ability of consoles.

So, let me get this straight. People who could afford to shell out over $1000 for a gaming PC that could handle crysis, could not be bothered to pay the 50 or 60 bucks that it would cost to buy Crysis, and had to pirate it instead. That is one of the lowest, most cheap things i have ever heard.

I am sure their are PC exclusives i failed to mention, so you are all free to flame me on that.

So how to Pc publishers react to piracy, and the shrinking of the market associated with it? they implement excessive DRMs.

example: Mass effect's publisher's EA (dont turn this into an EA falme thread) announced a stringent set of measures to prevent piracy. Every 10 days, you would have to go through verification, and the game would have a maximum of 3 installations.

I hardly need to say that the gaming community was furious, ad many decided to boycott the game, some even declaring that "to punish ea, they would pirate it". So, and excellent game, is being brought to PC, afetr several months reworking, an awsome improvement to the graphics, huge bug busting work, and promise of a whole continued string of 100% free DLCs, by a renowned and respect RPG producer (bioware), and people are boycotting it due to the hassle involved in verification???

Is it really that wrong for a PC publisher to wish to protect their games. EA learned for their missatke with Crysis, are trying to stop piracy, protect and promote the PC market, and respond to many PC gamers asking for Mass effect to come to PC, and then have them complain that they can't pirate it/have to go through lots of DRM.

Thi sis all just wrong. IF games are art, game makers are artists. Do you steal an artists works? Many do, but it should not happen. You would not steal a bag, some beer from a store, or CD from a shop, so dont steal games.

You are all free to flame me, or ewven write TL;DR.

Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
Posted - 2008.06.01 08:43:00 - [2]
 

I agree with you. I've never pirated a PC game because I don't want to bite the hand that feeds me. Just a logical way of looking at it really.

Kyanzes
Amarr
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.06.01 08:54:00 - [3]
 


Crysis was a POS. I's overhyped to the extreme, had nice graphics and effects that's all. A mindless shooter IMHO. That was the end of it, not piracy.

As for Mass Effect: I've tried to buy it from several sources without any success. If you are from outside of the US, you are denied the chance of buying it. They'll release it in Europe a week from now, but I want to play the US version. Nobody cares about it. Then frak them.

IMHO piracy lowers the number of POS games on the market, effectively compensating for the loss incurred for publishers by eliminating competition. You can't make (a lot of) money on POS games, it's that simple.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.06.01 08:58:00 - [4]
 

This very point was already raised, but I will second it.

I want to buy games like Assassians Creed and Mass Effect. I'm in Denmark.

I go to certain online stores where you can buy games. What do I find? I can't buy it unless I'm in the US. Some games also have an UK version. But you STILL have to be in the UK to buy it.

This means that it's move convinient to go pirate that game. And you know what? I think it's their own damn fault then.

As for Crysis, piracy wasn't the issue I believe. The game was so overhyped it wasn't even funny. I played the demo and didn't really feel like buying the game.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2008.06.01 09:10:00 - [5]
 

Games take too long to torrent to be worth pirating imo. I prefer boxes or steam (alot faster download speed).

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.06.01 09:15:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: TimMc
Games take too long to torrent to be worth pirating imo. I prefer boxes or steam (alot faster download speed).

But your options, even on Steam, are limited if you are outside US. I still can't buy Assassians Creed on steam.

Kyanzes
Amarr
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.06.01 09:35:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kyanzes on 01/06/2008 09:35:27
Originally by: TimMc
Games take too long to torrent to be worth pirating imo. I prefer boxes or steam (alot faster download speed).


Only when you are allowed to buy the games you want. Since there's no way I can buy Mass Effect via digital download, I'm forced to look for it on eBay. 6-10 days till arrival. OMFG.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.06.01 10:01:00 - [8]
 

I don't pirate games, why? because I play mmos Laughing

think the only games I bought in the last year were eve subscriptions and halo 3. being rather broke didn't help much either. don't remember seeing much of anything I wanted to buy anyways.

crysis well okay, its pretty, but as for game play I think I'm better off playing counterstrike or battlefield 2, as I already own them. It doesn't look that great, or like it offers anything new. oohh superhero gun game wow thats new Rolling Eyes

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.06.01 10:05:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: TimMc
Games take too long to torrent to be worth pirating imo. I prefer boxes or steam (alot faster download speed).


Laughing?

click download this and the next morning it is done is too long?

Spider Silva
Posted - 2008.06.01 10:23:00 - [10]
 

pc piracy is rife and too easy to do, its the reason why pc games of good quality are few and far between these days, because theres hardly anyone buying at retail price

heres a quote from activision regarding call of duty 4 which is the best selling game of 2007

"Call of Duty 4 is a target of piracy, which may affect the game's sales. One of the game's developers stated, "We pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing Multiplayer [...] What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies.

a few years ago i used to buy a pc game from asda, take it home install it and then run a no cd crack, then id take the game back and swap it for another using various excuses, i got away with this for ages so i always considered games a buy one get one free scenario.

These days its too hard to return pc games so i just pay full price for the occasional good games that i do want.

Remata Lakira
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.06.01 12:15:00 - [11]
 

I started pirating pc games after I bought Oblivion and Kotor2. Oblivion was nowhere near as good as previous Elder Scrolls and a lot of the reviews jsut so happened to leave that minor detail out Rolling Eyes I bought it and was quite disappointed. Oblivion is very shallow for a supposed sandbox rpg game. As for kotor 2, it was a good game...but it wasn't finished....which should be illegal in my opinion.

The game industry has unfortunately been taken over by typical executive types who know nothing about video games but know plenty about how to make something appear shiny the masses. There's nothing wrong with making money but corporations attempt to con customers all the time, and there's no way to really reprimand them.

From then on I decided to pirate every game I was suspicious of. If it turns out to be good then i decide that the devs deserve my money and so i go out and buy it.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.06.01 12:24:00 - [12]
 

Speaking of EA and the oh-so-whatever DRM they are pushing... Mass Effect for the PC is out, with all of their promised DRMs in place except the nontinuous "phone home" activation.
And guess what... "pirated" copies of it have hit the torrents since yesterday.

So... is PC games piracy a big problem ?
Well, depends on what DO you define as a problem.

Yes, it's a big problem, as in "game companies can no longer hope to sell overhyped, bloatwearish crap like CRYSIS, for instance, because everybody and their dog has to buy a 2000$++ game machine every gorram year, again and again, instead of a 300-400$ console once just to run the gorram games smoothly".
But no, it's not a big problem in the sense that "if nobody would pirate, people would buy our games".

There's only a couple of half-decent stand-alone games out there in the first place every year, and most of them come out for the consoles first.
Yeah, I've TRIED Crysis. On my old machine, which runs EVE classic like a charm, and has to be slowed down to play most of the games I actually still enjoy even nowadays. But Crysis, on the MINIMAL detail levels, handling barely acceptable was obviously looking like crap. Other than the eyecandy (which I couldn't have cared less for in the first place anyway), the game was... for lack of a better word, insipid. Yeah, woohoo, they gave the NPCs a tiny bit of AI, glee and stuff. Congratulations on almost reaching the point gaming should have been 10 years ago. Now move along, nothing to see.

On the OTHER hand, look at ANOTHER game.
A fun game, a game where you can actually lose yourself, playing for hours and thinking you barely just started.
One awesome, stunning game, that still looks great even at minimum detail, and runs smoothly on old machines.
And that game has zero DRM protection measures.
I'm speaking of course of Sins of a Solar Empire.

Oh, and then again, there's the whole world of the MMOs.
Yeah, ever heard of somebody pirating WoW or EVE ?
Me neither. And you know why ? Because they're free downloads anyway.


So... you tell me now... does piracy hurt game companies ? And does DRM help ?
Or do they actually just hurt themselves and TRY to find somebody to blame for their own inadequacies ?

Suze'Rain
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.01 12:25:00 - [13]
 

Yes, piracy is a massive problem.

the reality is that most studios developing games are on a financial knife-edge - for every Rockstar, Valve or EA studio, there's a hundred studios creating stuff with only 20-30 staff, and no money at all to survive if their product fails to bring in the cash on release.

CCP is a damn good example of that - 99% of the players will be unaware of how close EVE got to folding before it ever reached the market. I believe from Hilmar's statements at conferences that the final six months of development, CCP were almost bankrupt, and staff were unpaid, working on the game for the love of it. If CCP was an offline game,and had been pirated extensively, thy'd probably have not made enough to continue, in that situation.

I used to think that it was exaggerated, but working in the industry nowadays, I've come to realise just how precarious the survival of many dev studios can be, and how much of an impact piracy can make.

Suze'Rain
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.01 12:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Oh, and then again, there's the whole world of the MMOs.
Yeah, ever heard of somebody pirating WoW or EVE ?
Me neither. And you know why ? Because they're free downloads anyway.




Actually, it may not have occurred to you, but the reason no-one has pirated wow or eve, is becasue there's a few billion lines of code that you dont download.

it's called the entire server-side game.

the client is just that. the player-end of the game. the real guts, the AI for bots, the market servers, the transfer intermediary between players etc, every single part that makes a MMO a MMO, instead of a singleplayer game, that's all run by CCP/Blizzard and never sees public access.

PLust, the minor detail that even if you did get the server code for Eve, are you going to spend 100 grand for a small supercomputer server so you and 100 freinds can play eve in your own personal shard? Doubt it.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.06.01 12:31:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2008 12:35:17

The age of the offline game has passed.
There are only two acceptable lines of thought for games from now on : online play (even if the game is "massively singleplayer with atouch of multiplayer") or shareware.
Console releases MIGHT still work for a while, but only because modding them is cumbersome enough and voids the warranty (not even speaking about "illegal").
Originally by: Suze'Rain
Actually, it may not have occurred to you, but [...]

Yes, it did occur to me, seeing how I said the exact same thing (or, at least, I tried to) but in different words... the client is a free download, but all the logic depends on you connecting to THEIR machines. So there's nothing TO pirate, you're "renting" gametime on their server, you're not buying a game.

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.01 12:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Remata Lakira
I started pirating pc games after I bought Oblivion and Kotor2. Oblivion was nowhere near as good as previous Elder Scrolls and a lot of the reviews jsut so happened to leave that minor detail out Rolling Eyes I bought it and was quite disappointed. Oblivion is very shallow for a supposed sandbox rpg game. As for kotor 2, it was a good game...but it wasn't finished....which should be illegal in my opinion.

The game industry has unfortunately been taken over by typical executive types who know nothing about video games but know plenty about how to make something appear shiny the masses. There's nothing wrong with making money but corporations attempt to con customers all the time, and there's no way to really reprimand them.

From then on I decided to pirate every game I was suspicious of. If it turns out to be good then i decide that the devs deserve my money and so i go out and buy it.





Agreed on so many levels mate, KOTORII was unfinished and pure hack job, EA release a new game when A patch would do, and TBH Developers are making too much of a big deal out it, take Introversion They made Uplink, Defcon and Darwinia and they started in a bedroom FFS, there not broke or posting epic posts on how there going to close doors due to piracy like BIG companys are doing.

If a game is worth it i'll buy it (if I can) if it's not worth it, it gets NAS'd and stored until I'm broke and bored.

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.01 12:35:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Suze'Rain
Originally by: Akita T

Oh, and then again, there's the whole world of the MMOs.
Yeah, ever heard of somebody pirating WoW or EVE ?
Me neither. And you know why ? Because they're free downloads anyway.




Actually, it may not have occurred to you, but the reason no-one has pirated wow or eve, is becasue there's a few billion lines of code that you dont download.

it's called the entire server-side game.

the client is just that. the player-end of the game. the real guts, the AI for bots, the market servers, the transfer intermediary between players etc, every single part that makes a MMO a MMO, instead of a singleplayer game, that's all run by CCP/Blizzard and never sees public access.

PLust, the minor detail that even if you did get the server code for Eve, are you going to spend 100 grand for a small supercomputer server so you and 100 freinds can play eve in your own personal shard? Doubt it.


I would if I won the lottery, but i'm sad Crying or Very sad

But arn't there hacked WoW servers out there ?

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:38:00 - [18]
 

the sad thing is that stricter and stricter DRM drives more piracy. i remember when i could buy PC games and use a virtual drive program and then put the CD somewhere nice and safe. nowdays lots of the DRM wont even let the CD run if such programs exist on your system because virtual drives clearly are only used by pirates.

though i honestly feel sorry for the devlopers of small shops who have such a limited choice of publishers today, the big conglomerate publishers want a game and they want it on shelves now. CCP and Blizzard could never hold their current rep if they had to say publish through EA which wants a product out for the right times and not when its ready to go.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
the sad thing is that stricter and stricter DRM drives more piracy. i remember when i could buy PC games and use a virtual drive program and then put the CD somewhere nice and safe. nowdays lots of the DRM wont even let the CD run if such programs exist on your system because virtual drives clearly are only used by pirates.


And this is the vicious circle. A minority of people download the game illegally -> developers see this and create absurd DRM protection that hurts legitimate players too -> people who would have been prepared to pay for the game, download it illegally. This is possible because there is no such thing as a hack-proof system.

And of course, the whole virtual drives thing drives me nuts. There are PLENTY of legitimate uses for them. Half of the games I own I wouldn't be able to play if I hadn't created .iso files of them and had a virtual drive. This is because the disks are either damaged or lost.

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:51:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Last Wolf on 01/06/2008 14:51:12
EA = Wal*mart of games. EA sells nothing but mass produced sequels that are complete crap. I don't get how they make any money, they haven't made a good game since.... well never (I hate sport games so I can't comment on those). But they have RUINED a lot of "used to be good" titles.

Yes, I'm still mad about Earth and Beyond

Marisal
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:52:00 - [21]
 

ON a side note I find it slightly amusing that games companies are now looking into DRM on their products, yet those that have been leading the DRM banner charge over the past few years have turned around on it either offering DRM free versions for a little extra cash or simply abandoning DRM altogether. Tbh quite alot of people would say the DRM wave has passed and those trying to get onboard now will probably sabotage their market share

Mtthias Clemi
Gallente
The Space Bastards
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:00:00 - [22]
 

I dont know why they dont just release them on steam.. steam is awesome...

Lord MuffloN
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:40:00 - [23]
 

I buy games if they are GOOD and i LIKE them, I get it then, I feel the developers have deserved it then, they made a product I want to use, I pay for it, easy as that, I will however never install a retail game with ****ty software protection.

Also, I don't want to go to my "local" game retailer that is always a month behind, I want to be able to buy it spot on on the internet, thus I LOVE steam, if a game is there, available to me, I'll buy it.

I want it on the retail day, nothing else, the market got to adapt, if I had every game available on Steam, without the god damn horrible copy protection, and I've pirated and seen it's good, I will buy it, instantly, I will however never ever wait for a game once it's released, live with SecuRom, StarForce or any other **** like that, if so,

I'll pirate the game, and buy a retail copy later and still play on the pirated as it's far better and feel "morally" right about it later on as I still got it, I just don't want to live with the **** on the discs.

Brea Lafail
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:54:00 - [24]
 

I propose that the reasons the computer game market has become stagnant while consoles thrives are the following:

Party Hard - Consoles have 4 controller ports nowadays. That's 4 dudes rocking the Mario Kart or whatever. At a gathering, does everyone want to huddle around and watch one dude play crysis? Right proper LAN parties arent an option, as no one I know wants to admit to being that nerdy.

Cabbage - It's expensive and time consuming to keep a computer up to snuff for the new releases. Unlike console games, computer game designers arent forced to squeeze the most possible out of the same old hardware (compare an early PS2 game agains Zone of the Enders 2 or some crap like that).

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:57:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Oh, and then again, there's the whole world of the MMOs.
Yeah, ever heard of somebody pirating WoW or EVE ?
Me neither. And you know why ? Because they're free downloads anyway.


Actually your wrong here, WoW has numerous private servers, and while they may not copy WoW directly, i look at it rather the same as someone downloading a pirated version of the latest overhyped piece of crap FPS mindless "i'm invincible, one man against the world!" shooters.

And as for eve, well, a birdy told me CCP's doing a good job on that one.

Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:58:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kyusoath Orillian on 01/06/2008 17:04:04
Most 'piracy' is people like me.

the last game i downloaded was sim city societies.
after downloading and playing it i have decided that :

A) i don't want to play it.
B) i don't want to pay for it.

the developer has not lost any money. and i have not paid money for a game i don't like.

only good companies that bring out quality games get my money.

the makers of crysis cryed about piracy , but there game was ****. i did not even consider pirating it. thats right its so **** i was not going to download it for free.

good games sell well. piracy is just a bull**** excuse.

a great example is the orange box games , which i downloaded and tried, later i paid for them and am happy with my purchase. valve have done things really well and deserve their success .

oh and anti piracy measures mean nothing , they still are up on torrent sites after a few days with the ****ty copy protection ripped out. it only hurts people who paid for it and use the retail copy.

EDIT : the only time i had fun playing wow was on a private server. the fact the private servers are easy and plentiful and blizzard makes billions of dollars shows how the piracy arguement fails.

Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
Posted - 2008.06.01 17:00:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: TimMc
Games take too long to torrent to be worth pirating imo. I prefer boxes or steam (alot faster download speed).


lol at your internet connection

Adonis 4174
Posted - 2008.06.01 17:01:00 - [28]
 

When I was a penniless student I pirated more than my fair share of games.

Now I'm not I find the quirks in pirated versions annoying enough to have replaced pretty much every last one with a legit copy, just like I always said I would.

tsimpouklou
Posted - 2008.06.01 17:15:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: tsimpouklou on 01/06/2008 17:17:25
First: There are actually people that dont use their pcs only for gaming. For example, though you actually shelled more than 1000 for agaming pc (and made a complete fool of yourself) there are people who buy PCs for work AND play a game nopw and then.

Second: Availability. Like many other issues its another issue that availability matters a lot. Copied games are so easily and freely available in the Internet that many people download them even for trial ppurposes. So even someone as idiotic as spending more than 1000 euros for a gaming platform , is very possible that he will downl;oad and play a game that is pirated instead of buying it

third: People buy games. They just buy games that require cd keys for online use and/or they really like the game for some reason.

fourth: Whining about piracy and what people do with their PCs is lame at best since its really not the reason why PC games are falling down in quality, quantity and variety. If thats your problem then learn to adapt to society, get the frack of your parents eggshells and think for more than 2 brain cells of worth (maybe 3 cells just dont over do it and burn any of your last ones)

Fraszoid
Caldari
Healthcare for Space Hermits
Posted - 2008.06.01 17:15:00 - [30]
 

I was reading a post made on the Sins of a Solar Empire forums by one of their devs, that stated that they don't sell to China or ever plan to because of the rampant piracy that exists there. The game companies could start by not selling to where piracy is more rampant. Whats the point of marketing a product that has 25 million consumer target market if 1 million are sold, and the remaining are pirated? I'm not saying there aren't people that can do it else where, but you cut a large chunk out of the pirate base and you can slow it a bit.

DRM is hurting sales on what could be a good game without it. I was going to get BioShock and Mass Effect, but now that they have rather restrictive DRM, I'm giving it second thoughts. I bought Sins of a Solar Empire because it was unique and didn't have any protection, it was hyped as such having no DRM. I agree that DRM is losing the battle it was built to fight when people end up buying the game then getting a crack just to make it playable. As for offering a DRM free version of a game for more money, is simply extortion, DRM costs money for the company to license, so why should you have to pay more for less? Its like buying a pair of shoes and having to pay an extra to not have bright pink shoe laces in them.

As for Crysis' poor sales, it was probably due to the high requirements of the game to run with all the pretty graphics that it was hyped to have. Designing a game that looks great on tomorrows hardware is all fine and dandy if you are aiming for a small segment of the market. Trying to make a game with mainstream appeal requires your game be playable on the mainstream computer. That can be done with a well built engine that is optimized to use what is available and scale up with better hardware. My laptop is a good example of what I look for in a game; its an Intel Pentium Dual Core 1.8GHz, 1 Gig of RAM and Intel Integrated graphics. If I can play it on there, I'll likely buy the game because I can play it at home or on the go. I've tried Sins of a Solar Empire on it, and it works very nicely, as long as you don't zoom in to close up action which lags the graphics card. Its still playable which is nice (I used to play EVE at 6fps while mining on a good day, to me thats playable).

On the topic of software distribution, Steam is wonderful. When I got my new computer, I was set on getting The Orange Box so I could play Portal. I downloaded Steam, setup my account and looked through to buy The Orange Box online for $50, when I noticed at the bottom there was the complete Valve collection for $100, so I got that. Steam is a wonderful system for game distribution, and in many ways cuts costs and increases revenue. When The Orange Box came out it was $60 on Steam and in-stores, so either way you got the same content, but Valve needed to print and package fewer boxes since many people would opt for the online distribution channel, because it was faster, while others that are sentimental about having the CD and case could get it, everyone wins. There is still piracy of Valve games, but it is less and more difficult.

Online gaming is more difficult to pirate because the software is changing all the time, and as such what works today may break tomorrow. Its no secret there are Ragnarok Online or WoW servers that are privately owned, my friend was even running a SWG server with the code pre-NGE because he liked it. He also managed to find the server code to run a small EVE Server, don't know how, but the showed me it worked, it just takes some know how to do it. You also have to remember that its the size of the player base in a game that makes online games fun to play, I tried RO on a private server and it was fun, but very limited in terms of what you can do because there aren't as many players online, let alone that will group with you to achieve something. My brother leveled up a Bard, but you need about 6 people in your group to be worth anything.

Those are my thoughts.


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