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blankseplocked [issue] Moon mining, possible "mining out" and random redistribution
 
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Alexi Kalashnikov
Posted - 2008.08.14 13:03:00 - [61]
 

Yes, let's continue to punish 0.0 alliances for being successful at holding valuable regions and vast amounts of stations. Let's force them to preform tedious procedures in order to maintain themselves while the groups in empire do nothing but run level 4 missions in 1.0 security space with no risk.

This movement would also directly influence you Jade, as the reduced high end moon pool to draw from would result in inreased T2 costs and T2 margins. I don't appreciate your abuse of your position to further your wallet. Moon mining, as it stands, is fine: what needs to be addressed is the break-down and distribution of the resources requiring Moon materials. That says that instead of 1000 units of low ends and 500 of the high, you require 4000 of the low and 250 of the high, making the low more valuable and the high's less. This would be a far larger and more beneficial step for moon mining than any random distribution of moons which change from time to time.

Additionally, I would encourge that the high end moons be re-distributed. Right now well over half of EVEs high ends are contained within three regions: and that's just bloody ******ed (I speak, of course, of Paragon Soul, Feythabolis and Delve).

HenkieBoy
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.08.14 13:33:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: HenkieBoy on 14/08/2008 13:35:47
I would remove the mining from the moons and introduce asteroids that can be mined (not the roids found in belts btw). These asteroids are spawned random in EVE and need to be probed to be found.

The asteriod has a certain ammount of stuff that can be mined untill it is depleted and gone. The asteroid itself has also a timer (it's on the move for role playing sake ;) ) so if the timer is up the roid is gone also wether all materials are mined or not.

In order to mine the asteroid you have a special mining structure that can be launched once and is destroyed when the roid is gone. It is possible to get it back but it needs to be 'retrieved' while the roid is still there.

I really think that moons should be only used for sov and not for mining. One problem though, the system I thought of will not triger wars more often but it does trigger a need for space because holding more space means getting higher chance that a roid will spawn inside the alliance space.


SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2008.08.14 14:03:00 - [63]
 

Maybe just Dynamic Moons within constellations? Like 8/10,9/10,10/10 Plexes.

mynnna
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.14 14:10:00 - [64]
 

I think you're just looking for more ways to screw over the 0.0 alliances that you can't actually bully around like you do empire corps. This is just along the same vein as your destructible outposts suggestions. Laughing

Ifusikae Uiohyu
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.14 14:34:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: HenkieBoy
Edited by: HenkieBoy on 14/08/2008 13:35:47
I would remove the mining from the moons and introduce asteroids that can be mined (not the roids found in belts btw). These asteroids are spawned random in EVE and need to be probed to be found.

The asteriod has a certain ammount of stuff that can be mined untill it is depleted and gone. The asteroid itself has also a timer (it's on the move for role playing sake ;) ) so if the timer is up the roid is gone also wether all materials are mined or not.

In order to mine the asteroid you have a special mining structure that can be launched once and is destroyed when the roid is gone. It is possible to get it back but it needs to be 'retrieved' while the roid is still there.

I really think that moons should be only used for sov and not for mining. One problem though, the system I thought of will not triger wars more often but it does trigger a need for space because holding more space means getting higher chance that a roid will spawn inside the alliance space.




Bluntly speaking, there is not a single aspect of this suggestion that is not absolutely terrible. Sorry if it comes off as a troll, because it's not, but really, this is all just bad as bad can be when flying around in a mothership full of Groon fighters.

I think part of the problem is that much of the people here think that moon mining is some magical ISK fountain where profit flows like rivers of honey. Maybe one of the logistics people could give them an idea of the typical cost? Just a suggestion.

I'm all for redistribution of wealth, but to just randomly move the already spawned moons? This just shows how laughably unqualified you are, Jade, as a CSM and even more so as the head of such a group. If you want this to be taken even remotely seriously you should stop treating it like some... well, magical ISK fountain.

RDevz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.14 17:21:00 - [66]
 

I love scanning moons. It's wonderful how it takes hours to find out what's in a system (usually nothing valuable), and to collate this and work out where you can make money without going insane from the logistics. Now I get to re-scan space, because Jade would have moons move around at random. Hooray!

Even more fun is anchoring POSes. Right click, anchor, wait 5 minutes, right click, online, wait 5 minutes, repeat for 40 modules. Now I get to spend EVEN MORE of my play time staring at a little bar counting down to 0. BRILLIANT. This is just what I wanted to do to help keep my alliance afloat. This is a wonderful, well-thought out idea, from a sensible and not-at-all biased CSM rep, who isn't acting in his own interest.

NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2008.08.14 17:36:00 - [67]
 

It's a pain in the ass to set up a POS. We already hate POS's.

Wait until after "Starbase Logistics is Needlessly Soul-Destroying" has been addressed before making moon minerals migrate around.

Recluse Viramor
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.14 18:57:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Junkie Beverage
before they even consider this they need to make both moon scanning and pos setup/teardown less pointlessly soul destroying


This,

With the current pos mechanics if moons functioned as Jade proposes the prices of moon minerals and the subsequent materials and components would sky rocket as the time spent finding moons and deploying mining operations would rise exponentially.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.14 22:11:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Grim Mercy
Originally by: teji
Edited by: teji on 13/08/2008 16:19:42
Oh god this is dumb. Stop making proposals on 0.0 which you obviously have no idea about.

How about this

Let's have agents that you have improved your standings with just up and vanish. Let's have BPO's just randomly vanish from your hangar and show up in my hangar.

there is no :facepalm: big enough for this idea.


And the old guard weighs in...

Interesting.


I propose letting Goonswarm have 100% influence over what gets done in 0.0, because they obviously are the only one's who know anything about it and all of you other carebears should just leave well enough alone! Rolling Eyes

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.08.14 23:34:00 - [70]
 

Why not have moons run out of minerals and then eventually restock over time.

Much like a re-spawning asteroids.

Yeah I know.. random idea... but I'm curious as to the response.

Migrating moon minerals is a bit of a pain... especially from the programing aspect... the algorithms involved would blow your brains out. Let's not make CCP's job any harder ^_^;;

Better yet.... lower the rate at which you gain income from them..and cause the balance to shift more in favor of mining rocks/ice... that would help a bit.

I don't get why theres only "1" ore/type mined from any one moon/planet... why not have a combination of things and then be required to purchase specific modules of various qualities or require various skills to mine that specific type or types of ore.

There are various strengths of asteroids right? Why not have the same type.

A planet/moon in reality would not have a single quality of ore or ice but many kinds of various yields.

Random thought at best I know. Certainly better than migrating moons.... yuck.

Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.08.15 00:03:00 - [71]
 

I'll only support this if asteroid belts get the same treatment.

Mined the veldspar out of existance? Time to move on to another mining spot until it's regrown.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2008.08.15 00:05:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Recluse Viramor
Originally by: Junkie Beverage
before they even consider this they need to make both moon scanning and pos setup/teardown less pointlessly soul destroying


This,

With the current pos mechanics if moons functioned as Jade proposes the prices of moon minerals and the subsequent materials and components would sky rocket as the time spent finding moons and deploying mining operations would rise exponentially.


Really or would that just be BoBs POS people and other current players on the POS scene? Knowing there's a chance to find a high end moon no-one knows about and possibly mine it for a while before the world comes crashing in would serve to bring many more corporations out to 0.0 trying their luck.

Right now there's a finite amount of valuable moons, people know where they are and know whether or not they have a chance in hell of taking them, most of them stay on the same few hands and as a result the prices skyrocket.

Woodwraith
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.08.15 02:57:00 - [73]
 

if you were to do this, youd have to add MORE rare moons,
if its random distribution, how many good moons are going to wind up unfound, sitting in backwater systems that no one goes near,
your not going to find more than 1 or 2 0.0 populations that will keep going out and scanning EVERY FRIGGIN MOON to see if something valuable has popped up,
or theyll write a macro to do it, and general discussion will explode again.

StainLessStealRat
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.15 03:16:00 - [74]
 

I agree with the OP on all points.
Give us smaller alliance's a chance to get some isk even in providance.untill we are booted from the moon that is.

Xam Nesse
Posted - 2008.08.15 03:24:00 - [75]
 

I do not support making moon minerals moving about in any random (or any other) manner. It just doesn't seem to make sense to me. However, that said, I doubt that CCP will ever hurt the Uber-Alliance "Isk Printers" but I will repeat myself and say that at a minimum, moon mining needs to be opened up all the way to 0.5 and 0.6 systems. Sure those moons are crappy but they will help out some of the small research corps.

Side note (perhaps a troll): the absolute vehement opposition to any moon mining changes by the Uber-Alliances really points to them as the true "carebears" who, once they place their POS, want to forever just rake in billions and billions of ISK for no effort.

Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.15 03:37:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 15/08/2008 04:13:11
Originally by: Xam Nesse
I do not support making moon minerals moving about in any random (or any other) manner. It just doesn't seem to make sense to me. However, that said, I doubt that CCP will ever hurt the Uber-Alliance "Isk Printers" but I will repeat myself and say that at a minimum, moon mining needs to be opened up all the way to 0.5 and 0.6 systems. Sure those moons are crappy but they will help out some of the small research corps.

Side note (perhaps a troll): the absolute vehement opposition to any moon mining changes by the Uber-Alliances really points to them as the true "carebears" who, once they place their POS, want to forever just rake in billions and billions of ISK for no effort.



A moon mining POS, like any POS, still needs to be defended and it's not guaranteed that you have it forever. One cannot say there is no effort involved. An alliance that puts no effort into their moon mining loses their moons.

However, I do agree it is disheartening that practically all moons have been identified and will never change (under the current system, that is). But such is the nature of exploration. Once the features have been discovered, in this case the locations of valuable moons, there is nothing left to find.

edit: added italics to clarify my position

Drolus
Posted - 2008.08.15 04:11:00 - [77]
 

Stupid idea. Some things should be static so people can fight over them, that's what EVE is all about.

NOT SUPPORTED

HenkieBoy
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.08.15 07:15:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Ifusikae Uiohyu
Originally by: HenkieBoy
Edited by: HenkieBoy on 14/08/2008 13:35:47
I would remove the mining from the moons and introduce asteroids that can be mined (not the roids found in belts btw). These asteroids are spawned random in EVE and need to be probed to be found.

The asteriod has a certain ammount of stuff that can be mined untill it is depleted and gone. The asteroid itself has also a timer (it's on the move for role playing sake ;) ) so if the timer is up the roid is gone also wether all materials are mined or not.

In order to mine the asteroid you have a special mining structure that can be launched once and is destroyed when the roid is gone. It is possible to get it back but it needs to be 'retrieved' while the roid is still there.

I really think that moons should be only used for sov and not for mining. One problem though, the system I thought of will not triger wars more often but it does trigger a need for space because holding more space means getting higher chance that a roid will spawn inside the alliance space.




Bluntly speaking, there is not a single aspect of this suggestion that is not absolutely terrible. Sorry if it comes off as a troll, because it's not, but really, this is all just bad as bad can be when flying around in a mothership full of Groon fighters.

I think part of the problem is that much of the people here think that moon mining is some magical ISK fountain where profit flows like rivers of honey. Maybe one of the logistics people could give them an idea of the typical cost? Just a suggestion.

I'm all for redistribution of wealth, but to just randomly move the already spawned moons? This just shows how laughably unqualified you are, Jade, as a CSM and even more so as the head of such a group. If you want this to be taken even remotely seriously you should stop treating it like some... well, magical ISK fountain.


The idea I posted is just something that popped out of my head. It isn't about dividing the wealth because in RL the biggest countries hold the most resources and have the most money to spend, there is nothing wrong with that. In EVE things are ok as they are now. But I do think that moon mining and sov holding should be split up. Right now you got one structure, a POS at a moon, that does all tasks at once and that needs to be split up I think.

Xanja
2H Industries
Posted - 2008.08.15 07:33:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: HenkieBoy

It isn't about dividing the wealth because in RL the biggest countries hold the most resources and have the most money to spend, there is nothing wrong with that.


Yeah, those damn paupers from Switzerland, Monacco, Austria, Lichtenstein and the Vatican etc.etc. sure don't have two pennies to rub together.

Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.15 08:32:00 - [80]
 

Well, I'm hearing a lot of dissent against this idea by Individual Members of Goonfleet. What I'd like to hear is what the two Goonfleet CSM's have to say on this issue as if this gets onto the CSM Agenda then their positions on the issue are what's going to matter. Likewise, the positions of the other members of the CSM on this issue.

Getting the arguements hammered out here will definately help save time during the CSM meeting as most points will have already been covered leaving it to be a simple vote then.

Also, knowing the positions of the CSM Members would be helpful to various interest groups as they'll know who they need to convince of the strength of their case to get an idea Raised/Dropped.

Farinet
Posted - 2008.08.15 08:54:00 - [81]
 


Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.08.15 10:00:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Farinet



Hehe, from your posting history one cannot deny...you exist to vote!

Nick Bison
Gallente
Bison Industrial Inc

Posted - 2008.08.15 13:37:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Nick Bison on 15/08/2008 13:43:31
For me, the bottom line is twofold (for you goons, that means 2 parts) Smile

1 - keep all moon-mining static. there is no appreciable value to the game in making them random as stated by various folk in this thread.

2 - Open moon-mining up to and including 0.6 systems. Granted, these moons may not be worth much but it there is no viable reason these moons should not be mined as all the data on them is already in-game.
-------------------------
Side Note: i still find it funny how defensive the big 0.0 Alliances get when anyone even mentions how foolishly unballanced their private ISK-printing moons are to the game.

But seriously, maybe what needs to be looked into is makeing the top 4 moon-materials only produce 50% or 33% of the lower end moons?

NOTE: I gave this a thumbs up mark as I believe this does need to be discussed in the CSM meeting but I do NOT support moons being mined-out or the materials being moved randomly. Eve is not that old of a game and, in my opinion, it would probably take hundreds of years to actually exhaust a planetoid's resources.

Ifusikae Uiohyu
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.15 18:01:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Nick Bison

2 - Open moon-mining up to and including 0.6 systems. Granted, these moons may not be worth much, but there is no viable reason these moons should not be mined as all the data on them is already in-game.
-------------------------
Side Note: I still find it funny how defensive the big 0.0 Alliances get when anyone even mentions how foolishly unbalanced their private ISK-printing moons are to the game. Run-on sentence; see me after class.



Sorry, that was just staring at me, mocking me.

High-sec moon mining is also a terrible idea. You would think it would open up these "ISK-printers" to more people, but think about it for a second. Who lives in Empire? Most of the game. Where is it "foolishly" easier to make money? Empire. What do you think will happen when the capital-holding rich get a whiff of new moons, however low in value, now open to them? If you say anything but "snatch every damn one up in the span of about 2 weeks" you are an idiot.

And let's not even BEGIN to talk about how that affects Empire space. Suddenly you have deathstars in the middle of a "PVE-only" area.

The only result of this plan is a strengthened status quo and what may as well be an oligopoly (for you pubbie scum, this means economic dominance by a select few companies who will compete with one another until either A) one company goes bankrupt, or B) the two companies come to an agreement and gouge the **** out of prices).

PS: Moons are still not ISK-printers. Please see prior posts.

Nick Bison
Gallente
Bison Industrial Inc
Posted - 2008.08.16 04:25:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Ifusikae Uiohyu

Sorry, that was just staring at me, mocking me.

High-sec moon mining is also a terrible idea. You would think it would open up these "ISK-printers" to more people, but think about it for a second. Who lives in Empire? Most of the game. Where is it "foolishly" easier to make money? Empire. What do you think will happen when the capital-holding rich get a whiff of new moons, however low in value, now open to them? If you say anything but "snatch every damn one up in the span of about 2 weeks" you are an idiot.

And let's not even BEGIN to talk about how that affects Empire space. Suddenly you have deathstars in the middle of a "PVE-only" area.

The only result of this plan is a strengthened status quo and what may as well be an oligopoly (for you pubbie scum, this means economic dominance by a select few companies who will compete with one another until either A) one company goes bankrupt, or B) the two companies come to an agreement and gouge the **** out of prices).

PS: Moons are still not ISK-printers. Please see prior posts.


You have some valid points here, couched in sarcasm. Smile However, I must disagree that with your assertion that all these HiSec crappy-moons will be snatched up by the major alliances. In all cases of the moons I have been looking at in HiSec, not a one of them makes enough ISK to even pay for the fuel to keep a small POS running monthly.

That said, I will relook at my notes and run a few more scans to see if I have missed something that would better support your arguement.

Thanks for the input ...

waristina
Amarr
Slavers Inc

Posted - 2008.08.16 09:22:00 - [86]
 

Agree with the premise of making moon minerals a finite comodity.

Lord Testament
Posted - 2008.08.16 09:49:00 - [87]
 

support

AgentX
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.08.16 16:22:00 - [88]
 

Before something like this is even considered, the deployment and removal of towers needs a complete overhaul.

Spending 5-6 Hrs deploying and 4-5 hrs removing one tower every 3 months (multiply that by however many towers is currently run) just to keep the same production going, simply should not be an option.

Xam Nesse
Posted - 2008.08.18 20:01:00 - [89]
 

Two things strike me:
1 - Goons almost universally don't want their private isk-farms disrupted and don't want anyone else (HiSec) to get any slice of the pie, no matter how small.

and

2 - BoB supports finite moon resources but wants it easier to move an entire POS. When you think of the size of a POS and all associated structures, I just can't see how a few hours work is that big a deal ... except when that means a few hundred million ISK to you.

Final thoughts:
1. I sure hope the CSM can discuss and perhaps propose a logical course of action or two.
2 - Yes, I am posting with an alt.

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2008.08.18 20:12:00 - [90]
 

More game, less same same.


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