open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked Halos and Talismans - time for a looksee?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.30 07:37:00 - [1]
 

With all the changes and balances that have come into the game over the past couple years, some items have fallen by the wayside. The market has responded accordingly and deemed these items unwanted and therefore not profitable for those looking to make an ISK. While I'm all in favor of imbalance between items, because it makes the game interesting, it does not help that pirate LP stores have been essentially ignored. This is especially apparent if one looks at the T2, or pirate, implants.

With nanogangs so popular right now, Snake implants are in high demand and prices are as well. As of this writing, the Snake Omega implant is selling in Jita for 1.9 billion ISK. There's obviously high demand for this item and not much supply. This is likely because of the war in Fountain currently, but it isn't the only factor, just a factor of the recent price hike. The Snake Omegas have sold constantly above 1 billion, usually in the 1.2-1.5 range.

The price and demand (as well as the supply) can say quite a bit about consumer desire for an item. In the above case, Snakes currently have great speed bonuses that are valuable to any pilot looking to make their Ishtar go something upwards of 7 or 8km/s.

Since the nosferatu nerf several months back, Talisman Omegas have plummeted from 700 million or so to current levels: 250 million. And aside from what seems to have been a temporary manipulation of the Jita market, Halo Omegas have never broken above 400 million, usually staying under 300 million.

These are just examples but you can find this across all of these sets of implants. What the market is saying here is that there's no demand for these items. What's irritating about this is that the Halo and Talisman implants make absolutely 0 ISK for those wishing to buy them from the LP store. These items cost exactly their market value from the LP store, not even counting the LPs.

The problem seems to lie in the fact that the Halos are extremely situational -- only ever really used for complexing -- and the Talisman refresh rate bonus is notoriously hard to deal with on, say, a Curse because said ship would end up with no capacitor very, very quickly if used. The solution seems to be making these implants a little broader in scope and use, like the Slaves increase armor HPs or the Crystals the shield boost amount. This isn't to say the implants should be related to tanking, but more universally usable. They are too niche to have any value, currently.

Please take a second look at pirate stores, CCP. You don't have to make them perfectly balanced, but it is as if we were comparing level 1 and level 4 mission rewards, here. If you don't do it for the mission runners trying to earn an ISK, do it for the sake of balance of usage opportunity.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.30 07:43:00 - [2]
 

hey hey

Halo's are great for PVE and have some benefit in PVP.

Its just not as popular as crystals and snakes. snakes and crystals also have mods to help them with a boost so when combined you get such huge and dramatic effects.

/me huggs his halo set :)

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.30 07:45:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
snakes and crystals also have mods to help them with a boost so when combined you get such huge and dramatic effects.


Perhaps the Halos should also have modules to help boost them. I think that's nail on head, there. -20.7% is a rather measly bonus for signature radius when there's nothing else helping it.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.30 07:53:00 - [4]
 

id like to agree but unfortunatly i cant.

CCP are nub programmers for the first part so there would probably be a bug where you could stack enough mods and implants to get a negative signature radius . . . [/sacrasm]

but; you would also get people stacking mods to get insanly small signatures. personally i wouldnt like to see a fast hac with the signature radius of a shuttle. or a command ship you just couldnt hit :/

the halo benefit as it stands is quite nic for PVE and it increases lock times and reduces damage from the higher end NPC's Boosting them to be more pvp effective would have dire consequences. Maybe CCP thougth first on this one Wink

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.05.30 09:46:00 - [5]
 

Halos have their uses the same as small sig radius has its uses. Situational (and not so useful for bigger ships) yes, but not useless.

One of the major issues with the Halo set though is the fairly low bonus it gives compared to other implant sets (on a not so universally attractive stat, as well).

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.05.30 09:49:00 - [6]
 

The fact that these supposedly valuable implants are selling 'at cost' is a really clear indication that something is wrong with the overall balance, in much the same way that the cost of getting health insurance for a smoker indicates that smoking damages health.

Halos make your ship harder to hit. So do Snakes (in fact, much more so), but Snakes also make it much easier to withdraw at will from a tough situation. So not only are you less likely to lose ships while using Snakes, but the implants themselves are more survivable.

A pilot using Talisman implants is going to have to engage at fairly close range, and will probably be exposed to the effects of nos, neuts, and warp scrambling, in return for a bonus that only affects one or two ships at a time and is vulnerable to ewar. The bonus usually isn't even needed - any dedicated nos/neut boat can do a pretty good job without any extra nos/neut bonuses, and because nos/neuts don't depend on tracking, Snakes or Halos are actually much more useful.

The problem with Snake implants is really a symptom of a wider malaise - excessive speed - that permeates through much of the game, but there is no simple fix to that problem, and I don't want to address it here. Talisman & Halo implants are not widely used and I don't think it would be game-breaking to rework them.

Unlike Crystal or Slave implants, Halo implants have no effect on your survivability if your ship isn't moving. Speed & agility bonuses are already covered by Snake & Nomad implants, so I'd propose adding a web immunity bonus along the lines of 'webs work at 20% of their usual strength on you if you have a full-grade set', or 40% with a low grade set.

Talisman implants offer very little in the way of increased survivability to pilots using them, so perhaps a nos/neut resistance bonus would be preferable. As it's a really specific bonus, it ought to be powerful - I'd go with 80% immunity for low grad and 90% for full grade.

Any thoughts on these ideaS?

Arana Tellen
Gallente
Clan Death Corps
Posted - 2008.05.30 11:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
The fact that these supposedly valuable implants are selling 'at cost' is a really clear indication that something is wrong with the overall balance, in much the same way that the cost of getting health insurance for a smoker indicates that smoking damages health.

Halos make your ship harder to hit. So do Snakes (in fact, much more so), but Snakes also make it much easier to withdraw at will from a tough situation. So not only are you less likely to lose ships while using Snakes, but the implants themselves are more survivable.

A pilot using Talisman implants is going to have to engage at fairly close range, and will probably be exposed to the effects of nos, neuts, and warp scrambling, in return for a bonus that only affects one or two ships at a time and is vulnerable to ewar. The bonus usually isn't even needed - any dedicated nos/neut boat can do a pretty good job without any extra nos/neut bonuses, and because nos/neuts don't depend on tracking, Snakes or Halos are actually much more useful.

The problem with Snake implants is really a symptom of a wider malaise - excessive speed - that permeates through much of the game, but there is no simple fix to that problem, and I don't want to address it here. Talisman & Halo implants are not widely used and I don't think it would be game-breaking to rework them.

Unlike Crystal or Slave implants, Halo implants have no effect on your survivability if your ship isn't moving. Speed & agility bonuses are already covered by Snake & Nomad implants, so I'd propose adding a web immunity bonus along the lines of 'webs work at 20% of their usual strength on you if you have a full-grade set', or 40% with a low grade set.

Talisman implants offer very little in the way of increased survivability to pilots using them, so perhaps a nos/neut resistance bonus would be preferable. As it's a really specific bonus, it ought to be powerful - I'd go with 80% immunity for low grad and 90% for full grade.

Any thoughts on these ideaS?


Snakes are speed, maybe a target painting resistance.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2008.05.30 13:03:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda

The problem seems to lie in the fact that the Halos are extremely situational -- only ever really used for complexing -- and the Talisman refresh rate bonus is notoriously hard to deal with on, say, a Curse because said ship would end up with no capacitor very, very quickly if used. The solution seems to be making these implants a little broader in scope and use, like the Slaves increase armor HPs or the Crystals the shield boost amount. This isn't to say the implants should be related to tanking, but more universally usable. They are too niche to have any value, currently.


I'd suggest the opposite, the slave/snake/crystals aren't narrow enough in scope. Using slaves/snakes/crystals have such a huge impact on general pvp that the pilots featured in many eve-videos are often using one of these sets(Cown comes to mind, ABP 6 another).

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2008.05.30 15:14:00 - [9]
 

The value is just running with what the current trend is in eve, i.e. nano***s want snakes, cap pilots want snakes, carebears want crystals (all generalisations ofc). Rather than changing what the implants do, ccp should simply adjust the "cost" value of getting them, to be more in-line with demand. That way they can simply adjust it back when they re-boost neuts or adjust down snakes if they end up nerfing speed to the point snakes make little difference, etc.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2008.05.30 16:41:00 - [10]
 

Halos I think could just use a boost to their bonus and they'd be fine. Still not as all around useful as Snakes, but handy. If micro-sig Intys would be a real problem (which I kind of doubt) then perhaps unlike other ship and implant bonuses, it could be stacking penalized.

Talismans I haven't thought about so much. Maybe an additional range bonus would be appropriate, I don't know.


Face Lifter
Posted - 2008.05.30 17:22:00 - [11]
 

Halo and Talisman are both "reductionists" - they have negative bonus while others has positive. Because of the stacking math, the negative bonus turns out to be much weaker than the positive bonus.

It's only part of the problem, but it is one of the factors contributing to their suckiness

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.30 18:39:00 - [12]
 

Halos need to give a bit more sig reduction and talismans either need to be changed to something else (cap recharge maybe?) or to have an added feature of extra range on NOS/NEUTS.
I mean, I don't think I'd even use the talisman set while flying a bhaalgorn and that's saying a lot,Confused

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.05.30 20:27:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Face Lifter
It's only part of the problem, but it is one of the factors contributing to their suckiness


Did you just make a joke about Talisman implants sucking? Mad

Snake implants are good if you want to go fast and keep range, but with a web resistance bonuse, Halos might see some use by heavy tacklers or close-in blaster boat pilots.

iudex
Posted - 2008.05.30 20:29:00 - [14]
 

I totally agree with OP, some balance in lp value is highly appreciated.

I love to do missions for Angels (which have halos in lp store) but noone wants to buy those halos, if they were not utter crap, there were some demand for them, but there isn't any for a fair price.
The only good thing in Angel lp stores atm. are machariel and dramiel bpc, which give a lp value of around 1500isk/lp, actually even lower (i'm trying to sell a machariel BPC for 650m, which cost 400 lp + 100m isk).

Other pirate factions do a lot better, guristas for example with their valuable crystal implants. Serpentis lps were worth around 3000isk/lp last time a checked (snake implants) but they don't have nice agent hubs like angels or guristas.

A little boost for Angel lp store can't be wrong, i hardly see more than 10 people in the system, whenever i visit my missionrunner-hub, which contains 10 lvl 4q20 and 5 lvl 3 q20 agents (isn't it a shame that such a hub is empty ?), it would be a nice way to draw more caldari missionrunners (they are neutral to angels) out of highsec by offering them a lucrative missionrunning alternative in curse.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2008.05.31 10:52:00 - [15]
 

hummm i don't mean to ruin the OP but i must point out that it can't get any broader than signature ^^; as somebody mentioned earlier already, it's a bonus against missles, turrets, scan probes, getting locked, etc.

so i believe it's not been made all that powerful, _because_ it touches so many equations.


as long as speeds are borked and a web improves your shooting by up to 900% (yep...), there's no point in getting real close to the enemy in order to take full advantage of signature and sub-MDW speeds.
besides, even minnies "ignore" their signatures by slapping two LSE II on vagas, one (plus invul) on scimitars.

i've been trying scimitars for roughly a year now (did i say halleluja for the new model, ccp? can't say it often enough) - been trying LSE II, MSE II, pithi b-type small sb and whatnot. but its signature just does not deliver; you still have to fly it like a vagabond with roughly half the hitpoints.
if i had the choice between the nomad set and halos, i'd go for the agility.


and that's market forces at work.
although i've always complained about static LP costs ruining the player-driven aspect held up high in this game (i still believe those things should vary by popularity), one could go and start flying missions for another faction... too bad my standings don't allow such of a choice. so they introduced the part where you could report to your agent with a gang - aka "an alt you're paying for"



suggesting a stacking penalty to something that lives only through stacking like pirate imps, is... contradictory

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.31 13:16:00 - [16]
 

speed and tank is the key, so why get halos over snakes, slaves and crystals?

in my honest opinion, the halos do not give enough bonuses to prefer them for other implants.

i think that pirate implants require a revision.

there is very little benefit in some of them, and when one exludes the use of the other you think twice about what you get.

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.05.31 13:51:00 - [17]
 

Indeed. Double the halo bonus maybe ? And change talisman to increase neutralized / drained cap amount. With better bonus too (snakes are always nice for amarr neut ships)

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2008.05.31 15:15:00 - [18]
 

Well... if you increase the Halo bonus, it'll render certain ships completely invulnerable to damage while moving at less speed than Snakes. Here's what I'd do with Halos and Talismans instead:

Halo implants should now work as a sort of personal ECM burst. They break any hostile locks on you, on a cyclic timer like an ECM burst - every 30 seconds. The more implants you have, the more likely you are to break your enemy's lock - one implant gives a 5% chance every 30 sec, up to a 30% chance with the full set.

Talisman implants not only improve your nos/neuts, but ALSO remove the nosferatu cap equivalency penalty. Having one talisman lets you drain 10% more cap than your enemy has, whereas having a full Talisman set makes nosfers work like they did pre-nerf - able to nos the enemy down to 0% cap.

Face Lifter
Posted - 2008.05.31 19:31:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Face Lifter on 31/05/2008 19:34:41
for full Halo set, a bonus of 50% reduction in sig radius would make it significant enough to choose over Snakes

for full Talisman set, no matter how good it is, it's useful only for certain types of ships. It is completely useless for Nos mods, it is useful for Neuts. I say: keep the current Talisman bonus and ADD a special effect: makes Nos function like before the nerf. With that, Talisman would be instant hit

edit: just noticed Istvaan Shogaatsu's Talisman idea is same as mine. It definitely has merit.
For the invulnerability theory of -50% sig reduction - I don't buy it. Most of the kills happen on webbed ships. Once webbed, your super small sig radius may buy you a few extra seconds of life, but nothing close to invulnerability. That's in general PvP, averaged out.

Danari
Invictus Australis
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.05.31 20:19:00 - [20]
 

Off topic. This is for the discussion of changes ALREADY IMPLEMENTED.

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.31 20:35:00 - [21]
 

I rather like Istvaan's ideas, the Talisman one much more than the Halo one. I do think the Halos need to be changed to something other than signature radius bonus, because simply increasing the bonus too far as said may actually make the wearer able to tank damage they shouldn't. The signature radius bonus is a fickle thing -- too low and it's useless, too high and it is too powerful.

One possibility I've been pondering for Halos is an increase in remote repair/transport amount. This might be an incentive for carrier pilots to wear them, as well as spider tanking battleships and Logistics pilots.

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.01 00:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Danari
Off topic. This is for the discussion of changes ALREADY IMPLEMENTED.
Sorry, what?

Guns nButter
Stormlord Battleforce
Vanguard.
Posted - 2008.06.02 04:30:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Well... if you increase the Halo bonus, it'll render certain ships completely invulnerable to damage while moving at less speed than Snakes. Here's what I'd do with Halos and Talismans instead:

Halo implants should now work as a sort of personal ECM burst. They break any hostile locks on you, on a cyclic timer like an ECM burst - every 30 seconds. The more implants you have, the more likely you are to break your enemy's lock - one implant gives a 5% chance every 30 sec, up to a 30% chance with the full set.

Talisman implants not only improve your nos/neuts, but ALSO remove the nosferatu cap equivalency penalty. Having one talisman lets you drain 10% more cap than your enemy has, whereas having a full Talisman set makes nosfers work like they did pre-nerf - able to nos the enemy down to 0% cap.

i'd love that idea for the talismans...ofc you can also go back to seeing curses raping people just as they were before the patch...total removal of the equivalence thing is a bad idea, i think 50% would be fine.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.06.02 12:15:00 - [24]
 

The halo have a quite low bonus, I can only agree. I bought a low grade halo set some time ago and finally never used it... Well, it was cheap and I gave it a try.

Signature should be a good choice for nanoships, why is it not a good choice?
Pursuit situations : enemy will keep point on you and you may get webbed and die. With snakes, you're just faster and laught at them, even if they were 20.
Defense against turrets and missiles : it's just much better to totally overrun the missiles than to be hit for a little damage, snakes win on missiles. For turrets, as everyone uses MWD that increase signature, you can only beat the tracking and not too much play on the signature resolution vs signature.

So, the main issue on halos is to get webbed and the not efficient enough signature reduction.
If it would go at -35% signature with a 10% webifier resist (-90% becomes -81%, nothing huge, but I can web back my opponent and try to escape, marauders go from -99% to -89.1%), it would rock. Totally killing a web effect kills the game, a 10% resist already means you are 90% faster when webbed with a standard T2 web, it's enough to save you if you fly properly and have a small enough signature.

And this brings me to a second point : Halos are best on ABs, if you get a signature as low as 15-20m, you don't want to loose it to a 550% malus of mwd. So, halos could boost ABs!

Give the halos multiple stats :
* -35% signature
* -10% web effect
* +30% AB speed boost (with my skills, an AB II is +162%, it means +210% with halo, still far from mwd)

With that comes another way of building nanoships which wouldn't be sooo fast but just survivable enough.

PS : or just boost those damn ABs.

Arthor Dark
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.18 18:46:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Arthor Dark on 18/06/2008 18:47:52
I couldn't agree more with OP. There needs to be something done about the pirate implants. Serpentis LP is worth 5m for each 1k LP, whereas you'd be lucky to get 1.5m for any other pirate faction.

Talismans, due to NOS nerf, have been made almost worthless.


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only