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Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.29 23:11:00 - [1]
 

I'm pretty sure you're all aware of the falcon discussion going on the forum atm.
Anyway, here is a summary:

Issue:
The falcon is currently used as a long range jammer in low sec. With max skills and 2 x rigs it has a optimal of 228km with racial jammers. By making safespots and staying 180-200km away from his own gang he provides ECM cover. This is typically done at gates and stations.

The tactic is to stay cloaked until the rest of the gang is fighting, then de-cloak and jam the hostiles.
By staying out at such a distance from the actual fight the falcon is practically untouchable. No normal fitted short range ship can even target it, and if it could there is no other EW, besides a rigged ECM ship, that could reach that far.
This tactic and use of falcons have a huge impact on low sec pvp atm. When it comes to small gangs and if one of the sides have a “untouchable” falcon, it usually means the total destruction of the other side. Often with no losses.

There is currently 4 ways of countering such a falcon.

ECCM
Many say that ECCM works, but when it comes to small gang warfare the falcon will still manage to jamm enough to win the fight. The falcon pilot argues that he misses more jams when they have eccm fitted, but it don't help if the falcon loses a few jams when its enough to win the fight anyway.
ECCM don't work good enough to be effective in small gang warfare.

Sniping
This would in principle work. But roaming around in low sec with a sniper BS in a small gang is the equivalent of suicide. Besides the sniper has a big chance of getting jammed when he finds a falcon to shoot at. It works in theory, not in practice.

Nano
This is imo one of the viable counters to falcons. In a nano gang you can chase away the falcon and/or get out when it gets to hot.

ECM
Bringing your own falcon and do to them what they do to you.


Of those 4 counters only 2 work imo. More ECM and more nano. This is a circle that has started and is escalating. It polarizes the pvp in low sec and don't leave room for much in between. Stationary gangs that stay in a few system have them all bookmarked and use long range falcons, roaming gangs is pretty much forced to use nano or bring more ECM.

I think this should be addressed by either providing a better counter to ECM or adjusting the jamming range on the falcon.

For further reading, here is two threads that's currently discussing the subject.
It's official. Falcon IS overpowered.
Jammer Balance Suggestions

Im not sure if this is a case for you CSM guys,, but im posting it in here anyway .

Akiba

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.30 00:28:00 - [2]
 

Why would a distance over 150 km keep close-range fits off you? Can't they just warp to hit you right in the face?

Gorbon Hauler
Posted - 2008.05.30 01:32:00 - [3]
 

Falcons are not untouchable they are as vulnerable as any other ship and will die very quickly if caught. Often spots that are 200km away cannot be created in systems you haven't visited before so you have to warp in at 100km anyhow.

Gangs that have ECM have an advantage that is clear so rival gangs need to grab ECM themselves or get a tackler to burn out to the Falcons position.

There are lots of counters to Falcons - I think the real issue is that being jammed annoys people generally :)

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2008.05.30 01:32:00 - [4]
 

What about fofs? Try having a crow with fof's burn toward the falcon, its will leave real quick. Not to mention I rarely see missile boats with fofs. ECCM works great as well, I have a killer falc alt( max skills for everything jamming ) and when Im using 2 eccms( on a bs ), he only gets about 50% jamms, that means death to the jammer or members of his gang FYI. To keep me permajammed a falc has to use twice the racials to keep me jammed, meaning my gangmates can most likely deal with the jammer.

Falcons are fine, you just have to deal with them first when you encounter them, and you have to expect to HAVE to deal with them whenever your have an engagement

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.30 03:01:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 30/05/2008 03:03:40

Originally by: JVol
What about fofs? Try having a crow with fof's burn toward the falcon, its will leave real quick. Not to mention I rarely see missile boats with fofs. ECCM works great as well, I have a killer falc alt( max skills for everything jamming ) and when Im using 2 eccms( on a bs ), he only gets about 50% jamms, that means death to the jammer or members of his gang FYI. To keep me permajammed a falc has to use twice the racials to keep me jammed, meaning my gangmates can most likely deal with the jammer.

Falcons are fine, you just have to deal with them first when you encounter them, and you have to expect to HAVE to deal with them whenever your have an engagement


Don't flame me for this as I admit I am not expert in this. The following is my understanding so certainly correct me where I am wrong. Mostly I want to understand this better.

A 50% jam rate on a battleship seems to me to be nearly an effective permajam.

Say you get your first jam and miss the second and make the third. By the time the battleship gets a lock he'll be lucky to get one, maybe two shots off before he is jammed again. Granted you may miss two or three jams in a row but then you may make several in a row. In the end you have cut the damage from that ship to less than half since even when the jam is done he needs to re-acquire a lock which can take awhile. All added together and it sounds like you can seriously defang a battleship beyond what "50%" would lead you to believe.

As for the interceptor burning out to get the Falcon doesn't the interceptor open himself up to a fast death? He is no longer maintaining transversal and arrowing to the Falcon. Any BS with the range to hit 30-70km out on a inty moving in a straight line should melt him pretty quick I'd think.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.30 03:11:00 - [6]
 

The solution is a Bigger Blob!

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2008.05.30 08:03:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 30/05/2008 03:03:40

Originally by: JVol
What about fofs? Try having a crow with fof's burn toward the falcon, its will leave real quick. Not to mention I rarely see missile boats with fofs. ECCM works great as well, I have a killer falc alt( max skills for everything jamming ) and when Im using 2 eccms( on a bs ), he only gets about 50% jamms, that means death to the jammer or members of his gang FYI. To keep me permajammed a falc has to use twice the racials to keep me jammed, meaning my gangmates can most likely deal with the jammer.

Falcons are fine, you just have to deal with them first when you encounter them, and you have to expect to HAVE to deal with them whenever your have an engagement


Don't flame me for this as I admit I am not expert in this. The following is my understanding so certainly correct me where I am wrong. Mostly I want to understand this better.

A 50% jam rate on a battleship seems to me to be nearly an effective permajam.

Say you get your first jam and miss the second and make the third. By the time the battleship gets a lock he'll be lucky to get one, maybe two shots off before he is jammed again. Granted you may miss two or three jams in a row but then you may make several in a row. In the end you have cut the damage from that ship to less than half since even when the jam is done he needs to re-acquire a lock which can take awhile. All added together and it sounds like you can seriously defang a battleship beyond what "50%" would lead you to believe.

As for the interceptor burning out to get the Falcon doesn't the interceptor open himself up to a fast death? He is no longer maintaining transversal and arrowing to the Falcon. Any BS with the range to hit 30-70km out on a inty moving in a straight line should melt him pretty quick I'd think.




A 50% jam means my drones are not orbititing my domi doing nothing, it lets me sic them on a target, defeating the jammers role. Once the dogs are loose, its all over. I guess your right about the crow, but regardless of how it flys there zig zag or straight there, my point was, there ARE counters to jammers.. What about a cerberus with FOF's.. pretty good range if im correct? ( way over 100km , right )

J'Mkarr Soban
Posted - 2008.05.30 08:15:00 - [8]
 

Not supported. It does what it does well, and **** all else.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.30 09:52:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Gorbon Hauler

Falcons are not untouchable they are as vulnerable as any other ship and will die very quickly if caught.

I agree, the problem here is that they are extremely hard to catch.

Originally by: Gorbon Hauler

Often spots that are 200km away cannot be created in systems you haven't visited before so you have to warp in at 100km anyhow.

This is how the Falcon is used in low sec these days. It doesent take you long to bookmark the systems in a frigate.

Originally by: Gorbon Hauler

Gangs that have ECM have an advantage that is clear so rival gangs need to grab ECM themselves or get a tackler to burn out to the Falcons position.

Yes, this is the problem. The advantage of a 180km falcon, when it comes to small gang pvp, is so huge that it forces the opposing gang to bring more ECM or fly nano ships.
Originally by: Gorbon Hauler

There are lots of counters to Falcons - I think the real issue is that being jammed annoys people generally :)

Not to 200km falcons.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:16:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Why would a distance over 150 km keep close-range fits off you? Can't they just warp to hit you right in the face?

You can only warp to members in your gang.

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:29:00 - [11]
 

Seems to me like instead of scouting a system and setting up bookmarks or setting up a gang capable of fending off a jammer you more prone to nerfing the falcon than Doing the things nessesary to be a sucessfull pvp'er.

Getting jammed sux, but its part of the game.. adapt or die

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:30:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: JVol
What about fofs? Try having a crow with fof's burn toward the falcon, its will leave real quick. Not to mention I rarely see missile boats with fofs.

Im noe expert on fof missiles but dont they shoot at your closest target? (you meantioned using a cerberus in your second post)
Anyway a caldari pilot will be many times more useful in his own falcon then in a missile ship, thus adding to the ECM - nano escalation

Originally by: JVol

ECCM works great as well, I have a killer falc alt( max skills for everything jamming ) and when Im using 2 eccms( on a bs ), he only gets about 50% jamms, that means death to the jammer or members of his gang FYI. To keep me permajammed a falc has to use twice the racials to keep me jammed, meaning my gangmates can most likely deal with the jammer.

If you fit 2 x ECCM on your BS you sacrifice 2 mid slots. It is specially setup to counter falcons and still your jammed 50% of the time.

You say that ECCM work because you can only jamm 50% of the time when a gang have 2 x ECCM fitted, I say it dont work because a gang will lose the fight regardless if it has ECCM fitted.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:36:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: JVol
Seems to me like instead of scouting a system and setting up bookmarks or setting up a gang capable of fending off a jammer you more prone to nerfing the falcon than Doing the things nessesary to be a sucessfull pvp'er.

Getting jammed sux, but its part of the game.. adapt or die

Scouting out a cloaked falcon is not easy. I fly nano most of the time and deals with falcons on a regular basis.
What i would like to see is the option of fighting of (or countering) falcons with regular gangs, like they can do with the rest of the recons.

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:41:00 - [14]
 

Im not all that sure about what targets fofs attack now, they used to go for the closest foe, usually drones, but last week I used them and they went after the ship instead of the drones. Short answer is I'd move toward the jammer and close that gap. As far as 'sacraficing' mid slots, I dont see it that way, im 'using' 2 mids for something I feel the need to protect myself from as im usually primary. The more moduals the falc has to use to jam me the less thats on my gang. So ya know, a falc want's to perma jam the BS's during a fight, his gang usually depends on it, it means certain death to his gang mates when he miss's a jam on me. 50% is what my max skilled jammer alt does to my main, usuing racials, most guys arent that skilled so sometimes I'll get a convo asking wtf just happend. " I had 5 multis on you and didnt get ONE jam! " type of convos.

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:48:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: JVol
Seems to me like instead of scouting a system and setting up bookmarks or setting up a gang capable of fending off a jammer you more prone to nerfing the falcon than Doing the things nessesary to be a sucessfull pvp'er.

Getting jammed sux, but its part of the game.. adapt or die

Scouting out a cloaked falcon is not easy. I fly nano most of the time and deals with falcons on a regular basis.
What i would like to see is the option of fighting of (or countering) falcons with regular gangs, like they can do with the rest of the recons.



I agree that looking for a falcon thats cloaked up is a waste of time, but... If you know your enemys then its an easy task. Knowing what certain pilots fly will take the guesswork out of it, or you could just plan for a falc everytime you undock as well as nannos, neut boats, jamming drones, damps.... list go's on :)


As far as a countter gos, well.. A jammer is there to take your damage out of the fight, FOF's, (even if they dont hit the jammer) still lay damage on your enemy. I'd say 5% of the missile boats we pop have fof's... A shame, very usefull and under used..

Sworn Absent
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:50:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Why would a distance over 150 km keep close-range fits off you? Can't they just warp to hit you right in the face?

You can only warp to members in your gang.


So use one of your gang members to get a warpin?

Gyro DuAquin1
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.05.30 11:43:00 - [17]
 

its does only jaming well its two launchers and limited tanke with a 1600mm dont make it any kidn of uber. PPl that fly thong ships have to pay attention. Also one vagabond or ceptor that can be used as warpin means the death of the falcon

no support

Dr Clock
Sarah Chalke Fan Club
Posted - 2008.05.30 11:49:00 - [18]
 

I've sat in fights where I've been perma jammed and not got on a single mail but I don't want Falcons nerf'd back again.

As has been said, there are plenty of counters for them, and in fleets I've flown in as soon as a jamming ship of any kind comes on the overview support, usually vaga's, go get it.

Works well cause if they have to run, or just concentrating on jamming whats attacking them, they are out of it.

People should stop whining because they can't see ways of countering issues and try and work out what to do for themselves.

Nerf nerf ****ing nerf. Is THIS what people really want in EVE?

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.05.30 12:42:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/05/2008 12:44:02
Originally by: JVol
Im not all that sure about what targets fofs attack now, they used to go for the closest foe, usually drones, but last week I used them and they went after the ship instead of the drones.



Moot discussion, they'll never go for a ship 100 KM away with other hostiles nearby.

Originally by: JVol

Short answer is I'd move toward the jammer and close that gap.



Requires a nanoship (which will still have 40ish seconds of travel time!) and if the Falcon has multiple bookmarks you can't do a thing.
200-150km away takes a while.

Originally by: JVol

As far as 'sacraficing' mid slots, I dont see it that way, im 'using' 2 mids for something I feel the need to protect myself from as im usually primary. The more moduals the falc has to use to jam me the less thats on my gang.



You lose to a comparable size gang because:
(a) Your ships are less effective with wasted mids.
(b) A few of your ships are still jammed and out of the fight.

I mean, even if you reduce the effectiveness of your ships and ECCM up, the Falcon will still win the fight by jamming two people.

Originally by: JVol

So ya know, a falc want's to perma jam the BS's during a fight, his gang usually depends on it, it means certain death to his gang mates when he miss's a jam on me.



LOL, no, it doesn't. People use Falcons to support ordinary gangs which still have good odds. Falcons just make them virtually guaranteed to win unless you have falcons of your own.

Originally by: JVol

50% is what my max skilled jammer alt does to my main, usuing racials, most guys arent that skilled so sometimes I'll get a convo asking wtf just happend. " I had 5 multis on you and didnt get ONE jam! " type of convos.


Anyone using multis on it deserves to die a horrible death, and 50% is a lot, particularly for a slower locking ship like a BS.

That said, the issue with Falcons isn't their jamming power. Nobody whines about a Rook's jamming power (last time I've seen a Rook in low-sec was at least a month ago if not more, Falcons are a daily occurence) or a Scorpion, etc.
You can scout for these ships and prepare; a Falcon has virtually everything a Rook has plus a cloak. Which is the issue really.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.30 13:18:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Dr Clock
,, and in fleets I've flown in as soon as a jamming ship of any kind comes on the overview support, usually vaga's, go get it.


This seems to me to be the main issue with this discussion. Most people supporting the falcon only sees it from a 0.0 perspective, where they fly in fleets. For all i know the falcon might be perfectly balanced for fleet engagements.
However in low sec where we fly in small gangs the picture changes dramaticly.

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2008.05.30 13:20:00 - [21]
 

Most of the gangs we encounter that are any good, have falcs as well. ECCM is just as important as well on a falc now n days when your likley to get into a jammer showdown to see whos side has a jammer even in the fight. We expect it and fit for it simple as that. If we dont run into jammers then its pretty good to go vs jammer drones as well , so its a win win no matter what.

As far as falcs being 180-200km, I rarely see that unless its a set up, most of the time its 100km and at that they are aligning and moving away from the conflict. at those ranges the tactics ive talked about work very well, not to mention its very easy to for a gangmate to warp on top of them.

In eve today if your gang cant handle nano /ecm threats you might as well stay docked up




Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club

Posted - 2008.05.30 13:48:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/05/2008 13:51:37
Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Dr Clock
,, and in fleets I've flown in as soon as a jamming ship of any kind comes on the overview support, usually vaga's, go get it.


This seems to me to be the main issue with this discussion. Most people supporting the falcon only sees it from a 0.0 perspective, where they fly in fleets. For all i know the falcon might be perfectly balanced for fleet engagements.
However in low sec where we fly in small gangs the picture changes dramaticly.


This.

To the poster above: yeah, I'm sure your 25-man 'small gang' has counters to everything and Falcons of its own (heh), and that skilled jammers fit multispecs and stick 100km away, and that you can warp to hostiles on grid easily. It's nice to know.

Mengan
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:13:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Dr Clock
,, and in fleets I've flown in as soon as a jamming ship of any kind comes on the overview support, usually vaga's, go get it.


This seems to me to be the main issue with this discussion. Most people supporting the falcon only sees it from a 0.0 perspective, where they fly in fleets. For all i know the falcon might be perfectly balanced for fleet engagements.
However in low sec where we fly in small gangs the picture changes dramaticly.


So you suggest CCP nerf the Falcon even when it's perfectly balanced in 0.0 just to satisfy your needs?

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:26:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 30/05/2008 14:28:58
Quote:
The falcon is currently used as a long range jammer


Er, that's exactly how it's supposed to be used. Working as intended, as far as I'm concerned. It's the E-WAR ship of the long range hi tech race - naturally it's going to be an effective long range jammer.

ECM ships can't be short range jammers because they give up all tank and dps to jam. They are completely 100% dedicated to jamming. They should be good at it. I'm glad they are. If the falcon were to be nerfed down to a short range ship, which it sounds like you're asking, it would need immense boosts in survivability to be able to take and survive fire.

There are lots of counters to a falcon: fit ECCM - you are now twice as hard to jam. Use fast ships to get close to the falcon and put FOF's or drones on it. Use snipers to shoot the falcon. Etc.

The one thing I will say is that I think possibly gallente recons need to be made even *more* effective with damps, greater damp range, greater damp effectiveness, or something. I think the game needs more viable EWAR, not less.

Of course the gallente recons are effective soloing ships, while the caldari recons are not. Hmmmmm

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:34:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Mengan
Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Dr Clock
,, and in fleets I've flown in as soon as a jamming ship of any kind comes on the overview support, usually vaga's, go get it.


This seems to me to be the main issue with this discussion. Most people supporting the falcon only sees it from a 0.0 perspective, where they fly in fleets. For all i know the falcon might be perfectly balanced for fleet engagements.
However in low sec where we fly in small gangs the picture changes dramaticly.


So you suggest CCP nerf the Falcon even when it's perfectly balanced in 0.0 just to satisfy your needs?

Yes, i want the issue looked at.
I dont know if the falcon is perfectly balanced for 0.0, but it must be fairly balanced there since most people that live in 0.0 somehow dont understand the case presented.


In low sec the falcons is creating a imabalance atm. it is that imbalance im adressing.

Mengan
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:38:00 - [26]
 

You do know that what you've suggested as "fix" for the Falcon will totally destroy its abilility to function in 0.0?

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:49:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Ulstan

There are lots of counters to a falcon: fit ECCM - you are now twice as hard to jam. Use fast ships to get close to the falcon and put FOF's or drones on it. Use snipers to shoot the falcon. Etc.


It would be nice if you could read the thread and post something related to it instead of just posting the standar answer to any falcon thread.
All of your counters have been mentioned, and i have explained why i think they dont work and why i would like this balanced.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:50:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mengan
You do know that what you've suggested as "fix" for the Falcon will totally destroy its abilility to function in 0.0?

I dont, please explain.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:51:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Mengan
You do know that what you've suggested as "fix" for the Falcon will totally destroy its abilility to function in 0.0?


Is the Rook as underused in 0.0 as it is in low-sec?
Months have passed since I last saw a Rook, while I see Falcons on a daily basis.

Hmmm, maybe that ship should have a role which isn't rendered invalid by it's sister ship doing all it can do plus a covops cloak.

Covops cloak must come at a (significant) price. It prevents effective scouting and provides you with a significant factor of suprise in addition to being a show-stopper in any small gang combat as much as a Rook is (which you incidentally don't see people complaining about!).



Sworn Absent
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:54:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Sworn Absent on 30/05/2008 15:06:55

Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Dr Clock
,, and in fleets I've flown in as soon as a jamming ship of any kind comes on the overview support, usually vaga's, go get it.


This seems to me to be the main issue with this discussion. Most people supporting the falcon only sees it from a 0.0 perspective, where they fly in fleets. For all i know the falcon might be perfectly balanced for fleet engagements.
However in low sec where we fly in small gangs the picture changes dramaticly.


Even big 0.0 alliances fight in low-sec (although some not that often) and in small gangs quiet a lot - probably more often than large fleets.. So far I have yet to see a small gang scenario where a falcon has proved itself to be unbalanced.


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