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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Mordus Angels
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:23:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Eventy One on 29/05/2008 14:26:27
I'm looking at the faction ships that require Amarr Battleship skills. Specifically I"m looking at the Nightmare (Sansha's Nation faction BS) and Apocalypse Navy Issue (Amarr Faction BS).

I had a couple of questions I thought I'd bounce of you folks. Role playing aside, why choose the Nightmare over the Apocalypse Navy Issue or vice versa?

The Apocalypse Navy Issue has 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret Capacitor use and 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per Amarr BS level. The Apocalypse Navy Issue just looks cool (just as the Apocalypse does). However it has 8 low / 4 medium / 8 high slots (8 turret / 2 launcher ) which means you can fit 8 large lasers because of the extra capacitor.

The Nightmare has 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret Tracking per Caldari BS level, and 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret Damage per Amarr BS level all with a built in 100% bonus to Large Energy Turret dammage. The Nightmare, too, looks just plain cool! But it has 5 low / 7 medium / 6 high (4 turret / 0 launcher). With only 4 large turrents, but with extra damage - I find it hard to compare to the Amarr Faction Apocalypse in terms of usage.

I haven't run the numbers, and I hope this choice doesn't simply come down to a numbers game, but looking at the two, the Nightmare seems like it can handle the smaller, faster moving contacts a bit better, but the Apocalypse Navy Issue with its 8 large lasers, just does huge dammage (twice as many lasers right?).

Do the damage bonus's on the Nightmare make up for the lack of turret slots? Why choose one over the other?

Thoughts?

Raynar Alcohol
The Executives
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:27:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Raynar Alcohol on 29/05/2008 14:26:58
Exactly, the 100% bonus means 4 guns with the damage output of 8 guns.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:32:00 - [3]
 

I have never flown it but I have seen a number of players dub the Nightmare as one of if not THE best faction battleship there is. Expensive as hell and expensive to fit with really sweet gear but apparently it rocks.

gavhriel
Amarr
Jotunheimr Productions Ltd.
Talos Coalition
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:36:00 - [4]
 

nightmare has better dps and tracking
apoc navy issue better tank and range

it's only a matter of style :D

Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Mordus Angels
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:36:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
I have never flown it but I have seen a number of players dub the Nightmare as one of if not THE best faction battleship there is. Expensive as hell and expensive to fit with really sweet gear but apparently it rocks.



For EM/Thermal damage, I have no doubt that claim may be true. However the lasers don't do Kin/Explosive damage and this is where the balance lies.

Against EM/thermally weak ships the NM rocks! Against some of the others .. not so much. This is one of the points in the Caldari vs Amarr debates (Caldari can fit any type of damage dealing missile while Amarr do huge damage in their two areas only if stuck with lasers).

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:36:00 - [6]
 

The main advantage to the Nightmare is that it has spare high slots for NOS/Neut/other utility high slots, while still retaining the DPS of an 8 turret BS. If you consider that on any other BS with 2 utility high slots, they would only have 6 turrets, so that 100% bonus is effectively a 33% DPS bonus. There are other subtle advantages - since the Nightmare has half the turrets, it has half the cap consumption (sans tank and ewar).

Plus, the Nightmare can fit all the dmg mods it wants in the lows without effecting it's shield tank.

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:47:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Ki Tarra on 29/05/2008 14:50:45
Originally by: gavhriel
apoc navy issue better tank and range
apoc navy issue has the same range as the nightmare.

The navy issue did not get the same change to its bonuses (yet?) that the standard apoc did.

The cap bonus on the apoc is not that big of a deal either: 4 guns + 100% damage = 8 guns - 50% cap usage, the nightmare has a stealth cap bonus too.

Tanking, the nightmare has more mid slots so is often shield tanked to allow maximum damage mods in the low slots. Problem is that most NPC's that are vulnerable to EM damage also deal alot of EM damage, making armour tanking more favorable. The counter point being that a Raven can tank Sansha/Raider missions easily enough, a nightmare is not going to be any worse off than that.

So in my opion the tanking difference does very little to even out the advantages that the nightmare has over the navy apoc. Until we see the navy apoc get a boost (hopefully in EA) the nightmare is by far the better option.

The real challenge is choosing between a Paladin and a Nightmare. ugh

Arvald
Caldari
Drunken Space Irish
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:50:00 - [8]
 

the nightmare is pure EPIC WIN mixed in with chuck norris' blood and the tears of greifed carebears, will ramm through any l4 mission in about 10 mins and is a god at pvp, very very easy to fit as you have alot of extra grid and cpu and yes i am ranting that is just how good this ship is Very Happy

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:00:00 - [9]
 

If we're talking about PvE, then it doesn't matter how good the tank is so long as it can hold up against the mission. Example, if a mission does 100 DPS total, there is no difference between a tank which can sustain against 150 DPS and 200 DPS. Though 200 DPS is better, there is no advantage to using it over the weaker tank, which can still get you through the mission.

Or in other words, so long as you don't have to warp out anyways, a better tank doesn't help you get through the mission faster. Hence, the Nightmare is better for missions.

Azuse
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:04:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Azuse on 29/05/2008 15:08:22
The navy issue is getting the range bonus (on sis for a week now) + the built in cap of the normal apoc however it cannot match the damage, tracking or cap efficiency of a nightmare. It cant compete with hp or slots either.

In fact the only reason to chose the navy apoc over a nightmare would be either cost or looks (skill difference is non existent if you have the sp to effectively pilot either ship. I sold my nightmare afew months ago (well, who can say no to 1.4 bil? Razz) however it is hands do the best sniper in the game, it's also primary.

EDIT: and for pve it's basically ti marauder, heck plain tii tank is more than enough. You should also know that the nightmare is faster than the cnr against all rats but angels however it requires significantly higher skills. Don't make the mistake of pimping it or you'll be suicide where as minor pimping on an apoc is both cheap and effective. I suppose a marauder would be slightly better but will never match the looks.


Endless Subversion
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:05:00 - [11]
 

nightmare hands down.

The apoc has 8 unbonused lasers. The nightmare has 4*2*1.25 lasers for a total of 10 unbonused lasers. Additionally it shield tanks so you get all those sweet sweet dmg mods low.

Forget the navy apoc.

SuiJuris
No.Mercy
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:16:00 - [12]
 

Navy Apoc = FAIL, It has 25% Less Base Capacitor then the Regular Apoc, so the Normal Apoc has a Range bonus and the Navy Apoc is left with nothing it really is currently the worst BS in the game.

The Nightmare = Missionpwnmobile.

Shiken Kan
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:26:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Shiken Kan on 29/05/2008 15:29:27
defense wise the difference is simply that nightmare shield tanks whereas the apoc is an armor tanker. apoc also hasn't got a stronger tank, the one of the nightmare is just more expensive and ofc more susceptible to em and therm but then those are the rats you kill fast with lasers whereas exp and kin are the rats where you probably take a while longer to kill and thus would need to tank better.
nightmare is really easy to fit, requiring almost no fitting skills at all, i dunno if the same is true for an 8 tachyon apoc.
both are capstable without too many problems so no difference here.
nightmare deals more damage and it's hard to find amarr rats that you can't shoot with gamma tachyons, so you can't really make up for this with the longer range of the apoc (once those changes reach tranquility anyways)
as for the price the apoc is cheaper but you need more guns and use more ammo so the difference is less then what it looks like at first glance.
the nightmare can salvage and loot while missioning without gimping it's damage, the apoc can't.

so:

advantage apoc
price

advantage nightmare
damage
looting
vertical AND spikey :D

undecided
tank
skill intensity

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:32:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: SuiJuris
Navy Apoc = FAIL, It has 25% Less Base Capacitor then the Regular Apoc, so the Normal Apoc has a Range bonus and the Navy Apoc is left with nothing it really is currently the worst BS in the game.

The Nightmare = Missionpwnmobile.


Thankfully this is getting fixed in FW though.

Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.29 16:25:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: SuiJuris
Navy Apoc = FAIL, It has 25% Less Base Capacitor then the Regular Apoc, so the Normal Apoc has a Range bonus and the Navy Apoc is left with nothing it really is currently the worst BS in the game.

The Nightmare = Missionpwnmobile.


Thankfully this is getting fixed in FW though.


Not enough of a reason to choose the Navypoc, IMO. This could be turned into a Nightmare vs Paladin thread, but I've seen plenty of those already...

UberDeathDealer
Steel Fleet
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.05.29 16:27:00 - [16]
 

Nightmare is Vertical!!!

Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Mordus Angels
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:44:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: UberDeathDealer
Nightmare is Vertical!!!


So is the Jovian phantom which is where I think the Nightmare got it's style'n from.

I hadn't looked at the Paladin, but its been mentioned a couple of times, so I'm going to check out the Nightmare vs Paladin threads for more comments of interest.

gavhriel
Amarr
Jotunheimr Productions Ltd.
Talos Coalition
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:49:00 - [18]
 

EVE Online: Empyrean Age is slated for a June 10th release.

so stop crying about the Navy apoc :P

Helen
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.05.29 21:13:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Eventy One
Originally by: UberDeathDealer
Nightmare is Vertical!!!


So is the Jovian phantom which is where I think the Nightmare got it's style'n from.

I hadn't looked at the Paladin, but its been mentioned a couple of times, so I'm going to check out the Nightmare vs Paladin threads for more comments of interest.


More like the other way around.

Cry5t4l
The Photon Raiders
Posted - 2008.05.29 22:51:00 - [20]
 

Nightmare looks sexy.

Fitting Tachyons on a Nightmare is sexy.

Lows full of Damage mods is sexy.

Nightmare looks sexy.

Xaelion
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.05.30 11:18:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: SuiJuris
Navy Apoc = FAIL, It has 25% Less Base Capacitor then the Regular Apoc, so the Normal Apoc has a Range bonus and the Navy Apoc is left with nothing it really is currently the worst BS in the game.

The Nightmare = Missionpwnmobile.


lol, you boys really dont have a clue now do you.

I'd choose a navypoc over a NM anyday. A properly fitted navypoc will utterly destroy a NM
based on one single thing, Cap.

I'll agree the nightmare is the better pve ship, but it sucks for pvp compared to the NPoc

Qui Shon
Posted - 2008.05.30 11:54:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 30/05/2008 11:55:00
Originally by: Eventy One
Edited by: Eventy One on 29/05/2008 14:26:27
I'm looking at the faction ships that require Amarr Battleship skills. Specifically I"m looking at the Nightmare (Sansha's Nation faction BS) and Apocalypse Navy Issue (Amarr Faction BS).

The Apocalypse Navy Issue has 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret Capacitor use and 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per Amarr BS level. The Apocalypse Navy Issue just looks cool (just as the Apocalypse does). However it has 8 low / 4 medium / 8 high slots (8 turret / 2 launcher ) which means you can fit 8 large lasers because of the extra capacitor.

The Nightmare has 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret Tracking per Caldari BS level, and 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret Damage per Amarr BS level all with a built in 100% bonus to Large Energy Turret dammage. The Nightmare, too, looks just plain cool! But it has 5 low / 7 medium / 6 high (4 turret / 0 launcher). With only 4 large turrents, but with extra damage - I find it hard to compare to the Amarr Faction Apocalypse in terms of usage.

I haven't run the numbers, and I hope this choice doesn't simply come down to a numbers game, but looking at the two, the Nightmare seems like it can handle the smaller, faster moving contacts a bit better, but the Apocalypse Navy Issue with its 8 large lasers, just does huge dammage (twice as many lasers right?).

Do the damage bonus's on the Nightmare make up for the lack of turret slots? Why choose one over the other?

Thoughts?



NM requires Caldari BS more then it does Amarr BS, hope you noticed that too. You've got the bonuses reversed in the OP, it's Caldari BS for damage, Amarr for tracking.

I guess it's all been said already, but you need to look at the bonuses closer.

Nightmare does more damage, tracks better, is easier to fit, has a longer locking range, and gets the same 50% cap reduction bonus, since the 100% dmg bonus doubles as a -50% cap use bonus (and also a -50% ammo use bonus). Also, it uses Caldari BS for damage bonus, which works for Golem/CNR as well, couldn't be better for a PvE pilot. It tanks better then a CNR/Raven if you want it to, because it has more midslots.

At least for PvE, There really is no contest, other then price. Range bonus won't change that.

Termopan
Posted - 2008.06.04 21:10:00 - [23]
 

only from the title description im gonna say go nightmare ^^ had one ..deals a lot of dmg ..compared to apoc that just has a cool paint and thats all :)

Elhina Novae
HAMMER -N- SICKEL
Posted - 2008.06.04 21:21:00 - [24]
 

I have been thinking about this myself. Now that the Navy Apoc gets the same bonus as the Apoc should I get that, or a Nightmare?

Segge Bolled
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.08 11:52:00 - [25]
 

I have both, as of this week. I'll test the Navy Apocalypse after the patch, but currently I'm greatly impressed by the Nightmare with even mediocre gunnery skills and a rough fitting. The Navy Apocalypse will have hard time convincing me, I suspect.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.06.08 16:46:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Elhina Novae
I have been thinking about this myself. Now that the Navy Apoc gets the same bonus as the Apoc should I get that, or a Nightmare?


I currently fly a regular Apoc and I will not be upgrading to a Navy Apoc come FW.

Why not?

Because my Apoc already uses 3 heat sinks and I'm getting through missions fine, and another low slot won't really make it go any better.

If I had to pick between the Navypoc and a Nightmare, I'd be going nightmare all the way. Easier fitting, stronger tank (harder to sustain though), better tracking, gets to fit tachyons.

This is a pity since I think I'm one of the few people who actually prefers the Apocalypse hull to the Nightmare hull and if Marauders didn't take absolutely friggin forever to train I'd probably be going for a Paladin right now anyway.


 

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