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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.29 07:25:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Wait, so you are saying that its O.K. for there to not be discussion on all subjects because some subjects might not have much to discuss?

If you go to an Obama rally and ask what everyone thinks of the war you do not get a discussion based on facts and merits you get a poll on their feelings.

A poll on their feelings is not required, but open community discussion is, and open community discussion cannot occur in the format presented. Such no voting can occur until open community discussion is up for 7 days.

Hell, if anything the supporting member can post a thread in here about it and then we can all discuss it. Not poll on it, but discuss it.


As long as people can discuss the issue, I don't care if they do. If they don't, it just means that there's no actual debate to be had on the topic - everyone who looks either agrees or doesn't care. That's democracy in its purest form - everybody agreeing makes decision-making processes really easy. And your contention that debate is impossible in the forum format is just nonsense. There's a bunch of threads on Assembly Hall that feature actual discussion on the topic at hand. Half the time, I'm the one starting it. Just look at the BACON thread.

The problem here looks to be that you have fundamentally different expectations of how the process should be run than everybody else seems to, and you're claiming we're all wrong because we don't adhere to your preconceived notions. You're assuming that certain forums exist for certain purposes, when they don't really. Mind you, it'll get somewhat closer to your vision as a lot of the fixes to the CSM process itself get implemented(i.e., "/signed" will go away when you can support without posting), but I think you should really stop throwing a tantrum just because it hasn't done so yet.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.29 07:35:00 - [32]
 

We've been over this, they cannot discuss within that format.

Quote:
You're assuming that certain forums exist for certain purposes, when they don't really.


No, I am assuming our elected representatives will do the right thing and not vote on issues that have not been discussed for 7 days.

Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
Posted - 2008.05.29 07:37:00 - [33]
 

I will have to decline being in attendance as the meeting is 5am Sunday morning my time.

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2008.05.29 08:28:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Semkhet on 29/05/2008 08:52:33
Originally by: Goumindong
We've been over this, they cannot discuss within that format.

Quote:
You're assuming that certain forums exist for certain purposes, when they don't really.


No, I am assuming our elected representatives will do the right thing and not vote on issues that have not been discussed for 7 days.


Why don't you leave these peeps in peace so they can try to fulfill their mission without having to cope with this crap ? You want me to show you the amount of nonsense technicalities which render bureaucratic apparatus of entire governments incompetent ? It's a game and these individuals are doing that in their free time.

Besides, you had your chance: you ran for CSM, and IIRC, the least we can say is that your score wasn't precisely stellar. But despite having failed at that stage, you now consider opportune to bombard the CSM with your unilateral interpretation of rules and still keep attempting playing an indirect role ? Maybe time for you to get a life and fill it with something else than EvE... A girlfriend would be a good start Laughing


Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.29 08:56:00 - [35]
 

The list of topics pending vote by CSM, and selected for raising to CCP are now flagged in the INDEX BY TOPIC sticky on the Assembly Hall.


Inanna Zuni
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.05.29 11:45:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
... open community discussion is, and open community discussion cannot occur in the format presented. Such no voting can occur until open community discussion is up for 7 days.


1. When a thread is created on a subject it has been put up for open community discussion, by definition, since the thread is not locked and it open to comment.

2. Whether other people choose to make an explicit comment or to give a 'thumbs up' or, indeed, not comment to the thread at all, does not detract in any way from the thread being able to be commented upon,

Given the above then the "seven days" clock starts at the point the topic thread is created in the Assembly Hall forum, and whether there are two or two thousand comments makes no difference to that 'open discussion' status.

Originally by: Goumindong
ed: I am not trying to "kill the entire process". Far from it. I am trying to ensure the process runs in a right and proper manner, since it seems those elected to do so are not keenly interested in it.


I have read your many posts in this thread and am trying hard not to say "methinks the gentleman doth protest too much" and assign your views to sour grapes at not being elected.

The CSM is following the discussion requirements as set forth by CCP. Once a minimum of seven clear days has passed since the thread was created then it is open to the CSM to place the topic on their agenda and, should they desire to do so, support it and present it to CCP for a formal response.

IZ


Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:16:00 - [37]
 

My biggest concern with this 7 day listing in the CSM forum only and must have a CSM advocate is that there are only TWO weekends left before the deadline for all Iceland topics.

Thats it folks, get them in now or you loose any chance to get them to Iceland.

Kelsin
Dirt Dog Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:28:00 - [38]
 

At this phase I expect the CSM to recognize the hot topics and determine what needs more formulation to present to CCP. In the long run it would be good to develop a format/standard for the discussion period that will result in more fleshed out proposals/questions by the time the CSM is discussing and voting on them. But as it stands now there is no procedural obstacle to the CSM discussing and voting on the issues listed at their next meeting, as they have been up on the forum and open to discussion for the appropriate amount of time. If the playerbase hasn't refined the discussion topic further, that is our failing and we need the CSM to pick up the slack and o the refining when they present to CCP.

The thing to do here is to post an idea on the assembly hall forum about how the discussion period ought to work, and get it on the agenda.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.29 16:33:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Inanna Zuni


1. When a thread is created on a subject it has been put up for open community discussion, by definition, since the thread is not locked and it open to comment.

2. Whether other people choose to make an explicit comment or to give a 'thumbs up' or, indeed, not comment to the thread at all, does not detract in any way from the thread being able to be commented upon,

Given the above then the "seven days" clock starts at the point the topic thread is created in the Assembly Hall forum, and whether there are two or two thousand comments makes no difference to that 'open discussion' status.




Bull****. An open thread is not what is required. These threads are not discussions.

I am not asking for much. Only that we have the time and space to debate these issues so that you have all the information you need when you make your decision.

We don't, we are required to, its that simple.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:05:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Athre
My biggest concern with this 7 day listing in the CSM forum only and must have a CSM advocate is that there are only TWO weekends left before the deadline for all Iceland topics.

Thats it folks, get them in now or you loose any chance to get them to Iceland.


Its actually not as bad as all that. The face to face meeting in Iceland is one of 3 CSM/CCP consultancy sessions over the course of the term. If issues don't get raised in time for the Iceland trip there will be 2 further opportunities to get these things onto the formal agenda for feedback and reply.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:23:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
We've been over this, they cannot discuss within that format.


You're right, we've been over this. You keep asserting that no discussion can happen, and I can refer you to several threads where it has. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

Originally by: Goumindong
No, I am assuming our elected representatives will do the right thing and not vote on issues that have not been discussed for 7 days.


Last I checked, that's exactly what they're doing - they dropped LaVista's industry thread because it hadn't.

Originally by: Goumindong
Bull****. An open thread is not what is required. These threads are not discussions.

I am not asking for much. Only that we have the time and space to debate these issues so that you have all the information you need when you make your decision.

We don't, we are required to, its that simple.


Just because you define "discussions" differently from the rest of the English-speaking world does not mean that you're correct. If you want more discourse, you've got a week and as much space as you can fill. Get to it.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:27:00 - [42]
 

No, we had 3 days since the time of the posting.

And no, i do not define discussion differently than the English speaking world[I in fact used Princeton's and Webster's definition, which are as good as any]

Papa Ina
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:45:00 - [43]
 

Wow you're amazingly bitter. You do realize of course that nobody will vote for you next time either right?

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:50:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
No, we had 3 days since the time of the posting.

And no, i do not define discussion differently than the English speaking world[I in fact used Princeton's and Webster's definition, which are as good as any]


Which posting are you referring to?

Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2008.05.30 03:22:00 - [45]
 

In all fairness... one has to admit that Goumindong pointed out he does not blame the CSM for the problem (partly due to skosh time till Iceland meeting) that he sees. And depending on how exactly you see the term "open discussion" defined, he has a bit of a point.

But... on the other hand there is that issue of how to exactly define the "open discussion" which seems a matter of debate. Is it the CSM's job? Is it CCP's job? As there seems to be no word from CCP forthcoming on this matter (i.e. clarifcation of their intent) I think it more or less rests with the CSM to assess their own best judgement. And Goumindong, you can probably bring it to the attention of the two members of your alliance on the CSM so they can stress the need for a discussion on how to handle this. Because I don't see a realistic chance of getting an agreement on it in this "open" forum with too many diverging opinions.

Another possible problem I do see, which Herschel at least partially adressed, is the willingness to "discuss". You cannot force people to discuss something. Especially not in a game. If they want, they will do it (okay, till moderated perhaps). How much in depth such a discussion is going depends on many variables. Of which again many are not directly influencable by the CSM, CCP or anyone else here. I'd love to have a more detailed and in-depth discussion on some issues raised, but at least in this term of the current CSM I don't see it happening before the Iceland meeting.Confused

Calyce
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.30 08:17:00 - [46]
 

Why not actually use the two forums responsibly?

Jita speakers corner for the normal raising issues etc.

The assembly hall should only be use for topics that are "up for csm discussion" - ie, one of you CSM people need to pick a popular topic, start a thread in the assembly hall summarising the discussion, and open the topic for discussion.

The mods can then delete any thread in the assembly hall not started by a CSM rep.

(sorry for cross post)

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.30 15:56:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Calyce
Why not actually use the two forums responsibly?

Jita speakers corner for the normal raising issues etc.

The assembly hall should only be use for topics that are "up for csm discussion" - ie, one of you CSM people need to pick a popular topic, start a thread in the assembly hall summarising the discussion, and open the topic for discussion.

The mods can then delete any thread in the assembly hall not started by a CSM rep.

(sorry for cross post)


Problem with that is that it gives too much power to the CSMs, I think. Also, it adds another complete layer of bureaucracy - every issue has to be discussed twice. I'd like the idea of the forums being reworked somewhat, but this isn't the way.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.05.30 17:45:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
We've been over this, they cannot discuss within that format.

Quote:
You're assuming that certain forums exist for certain purposes, when they don't really.


No, I am assuming our elected representatives will do the right thing and not vote on issues that have not been discussed for 7 days.


Well seeing as the whole tick your support thing was my idea in the first place I feel like I should comment.

What makes you think that a topic has been discussed for 7days?
How many replys must there be?
What if only 4 people post meaningful feedback every day? Does it suddenly not count as 7 days just because it shows lack of interest?

My original idea called for the poster to not have to even post the idea being only discussion would be left. Basically you just don't like the idea of players being able to just say "yeah that's a good idea I have nothing to add"

Why?

If you took out all of the /singed posts you would find at least 2 pages of discussion that have been going on for 7 days.

Are you saying there should be another ticker where instead of showing support you post and show that your discussing the topic? and then bas it's importance on character count of posts made?

The whole point of saying you support a topic is just to say yes, the CSM should look at this, it fact /signed is less of a "I support this idea" and is now more of a "I want the CSM to discuss this.

and if it's a poll to ask the playerrs which topics the CSM should disscuss then it's working. It has NOTHING to do with the 7-day discussion thing.

From what I can see you think there should be a minimum number of posts that discuss the topic, however there is no rule set by CCP or the council as of yet that says "Topics must have at least X posts discussing the point"

So what is it? how many pages of posts do you think it should take?

I for one think if it takes 4 posts of discussions for the players to all decide "yeah you know what were done, the idea is perfect, there is nothing for anyone to add just take it to the CSM" then it's done and with the support of a CSM member it should be brought to the meeting.

This is the whole point of your job, to support us the players not elected opinions. If 1000 of us support an idea that you don't deem a discussion by your standards, Then the CSM should vote on what should be considered a discussion.

Or maybe I've got the wrong idea.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.05.30 17:48:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 30/05/2008 17:50:44
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Inanna Zuni


1. When a thread is created on a subject it has been put up for open community discussion, by definition, since the thread is not locked and it open to comment.

2. Whether other people choose to make an explicit comment or to give a 'thumbs up' or, indeed, not comment to the thread at all, does not detract in any way from the thread being able to be commented upon,

Given the above then the "seven days" clock starts at the point the topic thread is created in the Assembly Hall forum, and whether there are two or two thousand comments makes no difference to that 'open discussion' status.




Bull****. An open thread is not what is required. These threads are not discussions.

I am not asking for much. Only that we have the time and space to debate these issues so that you have all the information you need when you make your decision.

We don't, we are required to, its that simple.


well in that case, your posting in an open forum, thus you are not discussing the current topic right?

In that case your not saying anything and can be ignored.

OR are you having a discussion in an open forum about how discussions don't count if they are in an open forum?

MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2008.05.30 18:44:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

Bull****. An open thread is not what is required. These threads are not discussions.

I am not asking for much. Only that we have the time and space to debate these issues so that you have all the information you need when you make your decision.

We don't, we are required to, its that simple.


You really don't get it do you ? Official public notifications are handled more or less the same way all over the world. An official publication notifies events, and when events are submitted to a delay within which people may interact with the matters at hand, said delay runs from the exact date of publication of each single event. Like it or not, it's that simple.

It's then up to the people who may be concerned by a given subject to show enough focus to catch things which might affect them in due time.

A thread has a starting date and it's all what's needed. You really don't seem to need any help to make a fool of yourself on these boards... Remembers me when you stated somewhere that a Falcon is a nanoship Laughing

Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2008.05.31 17:15:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Inanna Zuni


1. When a thread is created on a subject it has been put up for open community discussion, by definition, since the thread is not locked and it open to comment.

2. Whether other people choose to make an explicit comment or to give a 'thumbs up' or, indeed, not comment to the thread at all, does not detract in any way from the thread being able to be commented upon,

Given the above then the "seven days" clock starts at the point the topic thread is created in the Assembly Hall forum, and whether there are two or two thousand comments makes no difference to that 'open discussion' status.




Bull****. An open thread is not what is required. These threads are not discussions.

I am not asking for much. Only that we have the time and space to debate these issues so that you have all the information you need when you make your decision.

We don't, we are required to, its that simple.


That's an interesting point, why don't you bring it up at the next CSM meeting and see if you can persuade the other CSM representatives to your way of thinking? Laughing

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.31 21:36:00 - [52]
 


Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.31 21:46:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Serenity Steele on 31/05/2008 21:48:13
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Chatlog is up.

Eve Almighty you caught that fast! RSS or just refreshing the site?! Shocked


Yes, indeed they are up: CSM #02 Chat log
General link to all CSM chatlogs: All Chat logs

Edit:
INDEX BY TOPIC in the assembly hall also shows who has been assigned which topics to write-up and which passed vote for raising to CCP.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.31 22:12:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Serenity Steele
Edited by: Serenity Steele on 31/05/2008 21:48:13
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Chatlog is up.

Eve Almighty you caught that fast! RSS or just refreshing the site?! Shocked


Yes, indeed they are up: CSM #02 Chat log
General link to all CSM chatlogs: All Chat logs

Edit:
INDEX BY TOPIC in the assembly hall also shows who has been assigned which topics to write-up and which passed vote for raising to CCP.


Manual refresh - wasn't even spamming it. Just happened to catch it at the right time, I guess.

As for the meeting itself, it seems a bit odd to me that all that's discussed at the meetings is bringing things forward to CCP, and not really the merits of the issues themselves. I mean, it's not like this is an actual legislature where you get to make final decisions, but it seems like a waste of perfectly good potential strife to put 9 people that diverse in a room and have them agreeing on everything Sad

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.31 22:40:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

Manual refresh - wasn't even spamming it. Just happened to catch it at the right time, I guess.

As for the meeting itself, it seems a bit odd to me that all that's discussed at the meetings is bringing things forward to CCP, and not really the merits of the issues themselves. I mean, it's not like this is an actual legislature where you get to make final decisions, but it seems like a waste of perfectly good potential strife to put 9 people that diverse in a room and have them agreeing on everything Sad


Indeed. I said as much on my blog as well and everyone in the CSM is aware of that, it's a matter more of playing "catch-up" until we have the template, and can place specific recommendations to debate.

Inanna Zuni
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.01 01:02:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
it seems a bit odd to me that all that's discussed at the meetings is bringing things forward to CCP, and not really the merits of the issues themselves. I mean, it's not like this is an actual legislature where you get to make final decisions, but it seems like a waste of perfectly good potential strife to put 9 people that diverse in a room and have them agreeing on everything Sad


I'll explain my view a moment if I may ...

The members of the CSM will *definitely* have their own views on the topics brought to us and will certainly discuss them to and fro with our own thoughts but at *this* time we are saying that a particular topic is worth getting a discussion with CCP about whether we personally think it is good or bad.

IZ


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.06.01 05:28:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Goumindong
No, we had 3 days since the time of the posting.

And no, i do not define discussion differently than the English speaking world[I in fact used Princeton's and Webster's definition, which are as good as any]


Which posting are you referring to?


This one. There is no reasonable way for the community to give input to the CSM on the threads for them to make their decision until after they have been announced as on the Agenda. If you do not have said reason then you will only have the supporters, making the discussion not a discussion, but, as previously said, a rally. Or could the my post on the 29th be a record for when this topic came up for discussion so that the CSM could vote on it if they so wanted?[By your argument, they can, by your argument they can vote on anything that has been posted to the forums ever]

I mean hell, the CSM didn't record a single nay vote regarding any of the topics(or if they did, it was a strikingly low number), the CSM didn't even have an idea of what half of the suggestions were trying to say or what they ought to be, as evidenced by the minutes where they had to agree to discuss it at a later date.

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Calyce
Why not actually use the two forums responsibly?

Jita speakers corner for the normal raising issues etc.

The assembly hall should only be use for topics that are "up for csm discussion" - ie, one of you CSM people need to pick a popular topic, start a thread in the assembly hall summarising the discussion, and open the topic for discussion.

The mods can then delete any thread in the assembly hall not started by a CSM rep.

(sorry for cross post)


Problem with that is that it gives too much power to the CSMs, I think. Also, it adds another complete layer of bureaucracy - every issue has to be discussed twice. I'd like the idea of the forums being reworked somewhat, but this isn't the way.


No, it does not give any power to the CSM since it only allows players to give the CSM more information. This venue is soft power on the part of the players over the CSM. Which by definition reduces their power.

It means one thread is for people to support an issue and one thread is for people to discuss an issue. It means there is the required discussion and it means there is the venue for which the 5% support can be reached.

_________________________________________________

What is this template and why has it not been posted anywhere for the public to review?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.06.01 05:37:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 01/06/2008 05:54:42
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto


Manual refresh - wasn't even spamming it. Just happened to catch it at the right time, I guess.

As for the meeting itself, it seems a bit odd to me that all that's discussed at the meetings is bringing things forward to CCP, and not really the merits of the issues themselves. I mean, it's not like this is an actual legislature where you get to make final decisions, but it seems like a waste of perfectly good potential strife to put 9 people that diverse in a room and have them agreeing on everything Sad


The CSM is not here to discuss the issues the CSM is here to bring the issues to CCP. If the CSM were to discuss each issue at the meetings they would never get anything done. You couldn't argue the merits and problems of two of the issues in the entire time the CSM had to get through its meetings.

The forums are where the discussion is supposed to happen and that is why it is so important that we actually have a venue to discuss these things instead the **** that we have now. That is why its so important that we have discussion threads on what the CSM is going to be voting on.

There is a clear timeline: Issue(forum) -> Discussion/Formulation(forum) -> CSM Vote(Meeting) -> CCP meetings and response(assuming yes vote)/CSM Rep Summary explanation(assuming no vote)

Implementing this is really really easy, requires no changing of the CSM documents, no vote or anything. All that needs to be done is for a CSM to make a thread after an issue has been on placed on the Agenda[or when it meets the requirements to be voted on] and keep that thread open for 7 days(preferably in here rather than in the assembly hall since since there is not signed mechanism here) before voting on whether or not to bring it to CCP and in what form its going to be in. [note, the CSM document requires no end date, only a minimum of 7 days]

Its that easy.

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.01 08:34:00 - [59]
 

It would be nice to somehow flag threads that MEET the requirements for CSM discussion (one representative support or 5% support) on the discussion thread. I am of the opinion that if a representative is going to support an issue to be taken to the CSM meeting, then that representative should STATE THIS CLEARLY in the thread before the 7 day discussion period is up (and possibly within the first 2 days or so).

An interesting selection of topics brought up for the 2nd meeting- however, don't treat us like idiots- there was no way that some of those topics had popular general support!
It also looks like the CSM is going to become a technical development branch by the look of some of those topics..

Take care,
Arithron

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.06.01 09:20:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Arithron


An interesting selection of topics brought up for the 2nd meeting- however, don't treat us like idiots- there was no way that some of those topics had popular general support!
It also looks like the CSM is going to become a technical development branch by the look of some of those topics..

An interesting point brought up in that post; however, don't treat us like idiots- there is no way that the topics couldn't have had general support!

It also looks like the CSM is going to be a council which represents the playerbase by the looks of some of those topics..


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