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blankseplocked Enough with all the NANO figs?
 
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Exuscon
Amarr
Frontier Explorations Inc.
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:27:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Exuscon

Quit being a twit and face the facts.

You are missing the point.

40 nanos are a balanced fleet?


No they're not, and that's exactly why a balanced, well organized, fleet defeats them.



40 man Fleets grow on trees with those exact set-ups and ships needed?

Why shouldn't 40 Domi's be able to do it?

Ahhh ,because the speed and the option of surviving or fighting each nano ship has?

There is no balance in that.

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:27:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Exuscon
I have no problem killing a few solo as well. That is not what we are talking about here.

I wanna see the fraps of your Raven defeating 40 nanos.

bring in your friends and be safe lol what a FAIL argument "oh noes they have 40 ships, I am alone and cant win, thats unfair *cry*" Rolling Eyes

Exuscon
Amarr
Frontier Explorations Inc.
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:28:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Exuscon on 28/05/2008 06:30:31
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
Originally by: Exuscon
I have no problem killing a few solo as well. That is not what we are talking about here.

I wanna see the fraps of your Raven defeating 40 nanos.

bring in your friends and be safe lol what a FAIL argument "oh noes they have 40 ships, I am alone and cant win, thats unfair *cry*" Rolling Eyes


Dude, you make no sense.

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:31:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 28/05/2008 06:32:43
then where is the problem? there is none!

Originally by: Exuscon
Dude, you make no sense.

lol fast edit = fail, btw it makes more sense what I say then what you say, you have still not brought a valid argument against a nanoing ship.

Exuscon
Amarr
Frontier Explorations Inc.
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:32:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
then where is the problem? there is none!




Hitaro's fix to the problem:

For starters change the way of how overdrives, inertia stabilizers and nanofibers affect the speed. There are two ways i can think of right now...

1.
- Overdrives: Change the cargo capacity penalty to an inertia penalty. This would prevent ships from beeing agile and fast at the same time
- Inertia stabs: Chance the signature radius penalty to a speed penalty. This would prevent fast ships compensating the lack of agility.
- Nanofibers: Leave them alone, they would be a module that affects both attributes a little bit. A ship gets a little more agile and a little faster with an AB/MWD fitted.
- Improve the inertia of interceptors so it would compensate the use of two overdrive modules.
- Allow only 3 mods or rigs to be fitted at the same time that affect either of the following attributes: inertia, mass, speed

This way people would have to decide to be either very agile or fast, but not both at a time!
Interceptors would not be affected very much, cause they are agile as it is and with the inertia improvement they could fit overdrives without having to suffer from a bad inertia. Even covert ops would not suffer from that cause they still could fit overdrives to go fast as they are cloaked.

2.
- Overdrives: Change the cargo capacity penalty to an inertia penalty. Change the bonus to be a thrust bonus (AB/MWD) instead of a speed % bonus. This way the speeds of "supposed to be slow boats" wont get through the roof anymore, cause the additional speed is based on the MWD/AB now.
- Inertia stabs: Change the signature penalty to a speed penalty. If you want an agile ship you won't go as fast anymore.
- Improve the inertia of interceptors so it would compensate the use of two overdrive modules.
- Nanofibers: Leave them alone again, little profits for both, speed and agility.
- Allow only 3 mods or rigs to be fitted at the same time that affect either of the following attributes: inertia, mass, speed

Even with this solution fast and agile are out of the picture if they were not supposed to be. Interceptors would stay where they are. This of course would change the behaviour of cloaked ships.



Euriti
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:36:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: LongHong Dong
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 28/05/2008 01:14:46
Everyone repeat after me:

Nano ships are for skirmishing warfare, tanked ships are for fleets.

A mixed fleet armed with both + ewar equals pwn.

Originally by: LongHong Dong


What counters?


Oh Christ, now you've done it, NOW YOU'VE DONE IT! Rolling Eyes


wait for their transversal to reach 400?


People like you are clueless.

They light up like a christmas tree with 1200 sig radius.

Hell even neutrons on a megathron can hit them with null ammo for 200-300dps.

Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:38:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Hannobaal on 28/05/2008 06:38:10
Originally by: Exuscon
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Exuscon

Quit being a twit and face the facts.

You are missing the point.

40 nanos are a balanced fleet?


No they're not, and that's exactly why a balanced, well organized, fleet defeats them.



40 man Fleets grow on trees with those exact set-ups and ships needed?


The things needed for that size gang to win against any other type of gang of equal size are the same things that will allow it to defeat a skirmishng gang of fast ships. For example, any well set up gang of that size should have recons of all 4 types (and all 4 types are effective in some way or other when fighting against fast ships).


Quote:
Why shouldn't 40 Domi's be able to do it?


I was gonna say 'because that's a stupidly one-sided fleet of heavy ships that really shouldn't be effective at all against a fleet of smaller faster ones'...

...but actually a fleet of 40 dominix with remote repairing and heavy energy netralizers will be insta-death for a force of all fast ships that tries to mess with them.

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:38:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 28/05/2008 06:39:50
Originally by: Exuscon
useless stuff


well then:
-limit turrets/missiles and tanking mods to 3
-if you fit tankmods reduce dmg done by turrets
-if you fit turrets/missiles reduce tanking abilities

now do you see how stupid that is?

and you have still not brought up a valid argument against nano fits Laughing

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:42:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Exuscon

Quit being a twit and face the facts.

You are missing the point.

40 nanos are a balanced fleet?


No they're not, and that's exactly why a balanced, well organized, fleet defeats them.


So, you are solo and I NEED a fleet to *maybe* kill you? In reality you'll probably just bolt (not being snarky...anyone would...point is I cannot catch your nano if you are paying attention or get unlucky).

Exuscon
Amarr
Frontier Explorations Inc.
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:44:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Exuscon on 28/05/2008 06:46:14
Edited by: Exuscon on 28/05/2008 06:44:49
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 28/05/2008 06:39:50


well then:
- I can't speaketh the eingleesh
- my turrets kapootz
- I R A NOOB SOCIALIST

You are stupid and we know it!

and you have still not brought up a valid argument against nano fits Laughing



Heh

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:45:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
[
So, you are solo and I NEED a fleet to *maybe* kill you? In reality you'll probably just bolt (not being snarky...anyone would...point is I cannot catch your nano if you are paying attention or get unlucky).


And you do any better with ratting Torp ravens with cloaks?

More nanos die than those....

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:46:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Hannobaal

I was gonna say 'because that's a stupidly one-sided fleet of heavy ships that really shouldn't be effective at all against a fleet of smaller faster ones'...

...but actually a fleet of 40 dominix with remote repairing and heavy energy netralizers will be insta-death for a force of all fast ships that tries to mess with them.

So, exactly how panic'd is a nano pilot when his cap disappears while 200 warrior 2s scream his way?

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:47:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 28/05/2008 06:39:50
Originally by: Exuscon
useless stuff


well then:
-limit turrets/missiles and tanking mods to 3
-if you fit tankmods reduce dmg done by turrets
-if you fit turrets/missiles reduce tanking abilities

now do you see how stupid that is?

and you have still not brought up a valid argument against nano fits Laughing


His arguments are fine. Yours are lacking.

Everything you listed (gun and tank balance) is counterable by a wide variety of other setups in game. If someone fits tank mods you are not limited to bringing only one or two ships to counter it.

The answer to nano gangs invariably seems to be "learn to fly a Huginn" (perhaps a Rapier or Curse).

That is bogus.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:48:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 28/05/2008 06:49:21
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
[
So, you are solo and I NEED a fleet to *maybe* kill you? In reality you'll probably just bolt (not being snarky...anyone would...point is I cannot catch your nano if you are paying attention or get unlucky).


And you do any better with ratting Torp ravens with cloaks?

More nanos die than those....


C'mon...they are avoiding combat before it ever happens. You could achieve the same effect logging which anyone can do (or for that matter slap a cloak on anything and do the same so essentially every ship in EVE can do that). Those Ravens suck but an entirely different issue.

Exuscon
Amarr
Frontier Explorations Inc.
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:49:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Exuscon on 28/05/2008 06:51:21
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 28/05/2008 06:39:50
Originally by: Exuscon
useless stuff


well then:
-limit turrets/missiles and tanking mods to 3
-if you fit tankmods reduce dmg done by turrets
-if you fit turrets/missiles reduce tanking abilities

now do you see how stupid that is?

and you have still not brought up a valid argument against nano fits Laughing


His arguments are fine. Yours are lacking.

Everything you listed (gun and tank balance) is counterable by a wide variety of other setups in game. If someone fits tank mods you are not limited to bringing only one or two ships to counter it.

The answer to nano gangs invariably seems to be "learn to fly a Huginn" (perhaps a Rapier or Curse).

That is bogus.



I do not fly any of those 3 and feel that I should not have to to be able to take part in war against the mass of nanos. Just sucks ,that this is what EVE Online PVP balance has come down to.

Euriti
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:50:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Hannobaal

I was gonna say 'because that's a stupidly one-sided fleet of heavy ships that really shouldn't be effective at all against a fleet of smaller faster ones'...

...but actually a fleet of 40 dominix with remote repairing and heavy energy netralizers will be insta-death for a force of all fast ships that tries to mess with them.

So, exactly how panic'd is a nano pilot when his cap disappears while 200 warrior 2s scream his way?


Extremely panic'd since he's now sitting in a floating cardboard coffing with a swarm of death comming towards his 250mill investment.

Many pilots will often freeze in these kind of situations in panic, it's a human reaction and it's natural.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:54:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Euriti
So, exactly how panic'd is a nano pilot when his cap disappears while 200 warrior 2s scream his way?


Extremely panic'd since he's now sitting in a floating cardboard coffing with a swarm of death comming towards his 250mill investment.

Many pilots will often freeze in these kind of situations in panic, it's a human reaction and it's natural.


What is stopping him from warping away?

Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:57:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Exuscon

Quit being a twit and face the facts.

You are missing the point.

40 nanos are a balanced fleet?


No they're not, and that's exactly why a balanced, well organized, fleet defeats them.


So, you are solo and I NEED a fleet to *maybe* kill you? In reality you'll probably just bolt (not being snarky...anyone would...point is I cannot catch your nano if you are paying attention or get unlucky).



We weren't talking about a solo ship. We were talking about a gang of 40 all fast ships.

Yes, it's difficult to catch speed fitted ships (solo, small gang or mid-size fleets of them), but that's the whole point. That's what they are meant to do. It's the one thing they're really good at. This is their role. To raid and skirmish.


If there's any kind of problem here, it's in the way almost any cruiser sized ship with lots of low slots can be made to go reasonably fast with a smaller investment in rigs and what not. For example, the Sacriliege and Zealot are supposed to be armor tankers, not Vagabond wannabes. Although, at the same time I think all heavy assaults should remain at least a bit fast, because the speed is the only thing for a lot of them that makes them better than their race's tier 2 battlecruiser.

Euriti
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:58:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Euriti
So, exactly how panic'd is a nano pilot when his cap disappears while 200 warrior 2s scream his way?


Extremely panic'd since he's now sitting in a floating cardboard coffing with a swarm of death comming towards his 250mill investment.

Many pilots will often freeze in these kind of situations in panic, it's a human reaction and it's natural.


What is stopping him from warping away?



A well timed dominix with an MWD comming his way with a web.

You know it ain't hard to keep spread out and time stuff. Also some pilots pvp freeze and then several seconds pass before they catch up with the situation and press warp, then another second or 2 will pass as they align. If you cannot get a ship with an overloaded web to him at that time he deserves to get away.

Exuscon
Amarr
Frontier Explorations Inc.
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:59:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Exuscon on 28/05/2008 07:01:43
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Exuscon

Quit being a twit and face the facts.

You are missing the point.

40 nanos are a balanced fleet?


No they're not, and that's exactly why a balanced, well organized, fleet defeats them.


So, you are solo and I NEED a fleet to *maybe* kill you? In reality you'll probably just bolt (not being snarky...anyone would...point is I cannot catch your nano if you are paying attention or get unlucky).



We weren't talking about a solo ship. We were talking about a gang of 40 all fast ships.

Yes, it's difficult to catch speed fitted ships (solo, small gang or mid-size fleets of them), but that's the whole point. That's what they are meant to do. It's the one thing they're really good at. This is their role. To raid and skirmish.


If there's any kind of problem here, it's in the way almost any cruiser sized ship with lots of low slots can be made to go reasonably fast with a smaller investment in rigs and what not. For example, the Sacriliege and Zealot are supposed to be armor tankers, not Vagabond wannabes. Although, at the same time I think all heavy assaults should remain at least a bit fast, because the speed is the only thing for a lot of them that makes them better than their race's tier 2 battlecruiser.


They are supposed to be the most survivable fitted ship in the game? The most versaltile too , I might add.

Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.05.28 07:02:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Exuscon

They are supposed to be the most survivable fitted ship in the game?


No that would be a cov ops, or maybe a cloaking interceptor.

Exuscon
Amarr
Frontier Explorations Inc.
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.28 07:14:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Exuscon on 28/05/2008 07:16:44
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Exuscon

They are supposed to be the most survivable fitted ship in the game?


No that would be a cov ops, or maybe a cloaking interceptor.


Nanotars and phoons are still a problem.

The current FOTM in eve is nano gangs and in many ways they ARE over-powered. Mostly due to the extremely low risk they take when engaging due to their speed.

Voltain
Dracula Order
Posted - 2008.05.28 09:57:00 - [83]
 

Hmmm, whining about nanos it's pretty much a moot point. The reality is you are not able to cope with organised gangs.

If you are being pwnd in the face by 40 man nano gangs and nanos get smacked with the nerf bat, that 40 man gang adapts and pwns you with something else. You'll all whine about whatever tactic evolves because it's easier than doing something about it.

These things can work though:

Neuts.
Webs.
ECM.
TD's.
SCOUTING.
TACTICS.
TEAM WORK.





Kolatha
Posted - 2008.05.28 10:41:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Kolatha on 28/05/2008 10:42:30
Edited by: Kolatha on 28/05/2008 10:41:49
Nano fitted ships have an advantage in that the pilot is able to engage, and most importantly, disengage at will from almost every encounter. That is their biggest draw card.

Now the only other module that let pilots perform this feat of engage/disengage at will was (past tense stressed here) the WCS and that got hit pretty harshly with the nerf bat (even though it did deserve a good nerfing, I also feel that giving it an activation cost of about 50 to 100 cap with a 5 second activation cycle, ie it doesn't kick in for 5 seconds, or some similar setup would have been a better path to follow), now the WCS is only useful for disengaging and renders your ship next to useless for everything other than travel.

If CCP chose to nerf the WCS so harshly then why not nerf the nano for the same reasons? or even in a similar manner? I'll get back to this question in a bit.

I think however that nano ships are a symptom of more fundamental problems with the design philosophy and some of the game mechanics of EVE. The first obvious symptoms of this problem came with the introduction of capital ships that couldn't be scrambled.

In EVE all the escape denial modules are more powerful than the modules that allow a pilot to escape from an encounter (WCS vs scramblers, not the pre nerfed version as that was overpowered, for example or the HIC vs pretty much everything same class and smaller except). This gives the impression that someone in charge of the design side of EVE believes that any engagement between players should end with someone going Kablooie.

Now the prominance of killboard applications and growing hatered of the nano ships in the forums shows that a great many people share this attitude. However, the ever growing population of nano pilots and the continuing, although abating, gripes over the severity of the WCS nerf suggests that there is also a large player base who don't like the idea that an engagement must always end with someone going boom.

As for the question I asked "why not ..." the answer is simply that any "fix" CCP applies would simply be a bandaid solution to a problem that is deeper than just certain modules. I mean there are as many possible "solutions" to the nano problem as there are people suggesting fixes. I myself think that a good place to start would be to have an overdrive increase the cap usage of ABs and MWDs or have the overdrive increase the grid and cpu requirements of the AB or MWD or even have the overdrive take its own chunk of CPU and powergrid.

But none of these are really addressing the real question of why players keep trying to find ways to allow them to disengage from an encounter without gimping their ship so much that it is useless in said encounter. I think the real solution to the nano problem is for CCP to go back to square one and rethink the entire mechanics surrounding how to capture and engage a ship without denying the victim at least a chance of escape from a scrambler or bubble camp (without having to fly specialised ships and ship setups, ie EW or Nano) while also not denying the ability of a corp or alliance to defend their home territory. Achievable but not without reworking pretty much every mocule related to propulsion or warp denial and possible solutions are out of the scope of this post.

Primnproper
Posted - 2008.05.28 11:23:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Kolatha
stuff


/signed

Also the other reason people fly nanos is because they're fun, your not just sat waiting for to see whose cap and therefore tank fails first in a battle instead your piloting your ship watching ranges, cap, armour, your transversal and a million other things.


Ralagina
Caldari
ReviveX Fleet
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.05.28 11:29:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: LongHong Dong
Originally by: LongHong Dong
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 28/05/2008 01:14:46
Everyone repeat after me:

Nano ships are for skirmishing warfare, tanked ships are for fleets.

A mixed fleet armed with both + ewar equals pwn.

Originally by: LongHong Dong


What counters?


Oh Christ, now you've done it, NOW YOU'VE DONE IT! Rolling Eyes


wait for their transversal to reach 400?


I think webs need to be looked at and taking into effect that most Nano fitted ships go above 11k..

So what is 8% of 11k? 900ish ms?

Please fix this CCP ,if a nano fitted ships gets webbed they need to slow to a 200ms crawl.



Average nano hac is about 3000-4000m/s. Very few go above that.

Most interceptors don't go about 8km/sec.

baltec1
Posted - 2008.05.28 11:34:00 - [87]
 

Everyone flying nano helps me to survive. My little retrebution loves meeting nano fitted ships, its amazing how many cant get though my tank before I get though thiers.
It also probably helps that almost everyone thinks my ship is crapTwisted Evil

Hasak Rain
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.28 11:46:00 - [88]
 

What is amusing is the same people defending Nanoships were probably the same people who cheered when they nerfed the WCS.

I agree with the OPer. Hopefully CCP will take away their get out of jail cards before FW.

Oh wait never mind...I am just whining because I could easily counter it if only I flew a Huggin 23/7. Rolling Eyes

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2008.05.28 11:49:00 - [89]
 

I fly nano ships.
I also kill lots of nano ships. All it takes is a bit of patience and some overloading of webs and MWDs and they melt.

The nano pilot's big advantage is that he can pick and choose his fights slightly better than the average slow boat and maybe be able to disengage slightly easier. But this is no different than a spider tanking BS gang holding on a gate or station and de-agroing.

Fit some neuts, fit some webs, train thermodynamics and get out thar and pwn some nanos.

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2008.05.28 11:55:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Nikita Alterana
nano is not the best tank. Its a decent tank, but you can't nano everything and expect to win, just like you can't armor tank a raven.
The only problem with Nano's are that people are too lazy to use the counters CCP has put in. They refuse to adapt so they die.


raven tanks great with armor, try itVery Happy


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