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Enjia Fullblood
Gallente
Star Frontiers
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2008.05.27 13:14:00 - [1]
 

well if there is anything that has depressed me more and made me want to play this game less it is lag, and i'm not talking 5sec or 10sec lag i'm talking about 10 minute lag. here's my story

i was recently involved in the fighting in r-6 on the side of IRC to defend ED space. i spent about 15-20mins preparing a ship to take into battle and then spent the next 2-3 hours preparing with the rest of the alliance to head of to r-6. when we finally get there (there was a lot going on as this was a 200+ man fleet) we all jumped into r-6 and prepared for our 'epic battle' as they say. when it all went to hell. i was able to target 1 person and start firing, but only one of my guns starting firing. my screen lags out of the next 10 minutes, so i logout and log back in, i get a black screen for another 5 minutes, try again same thing, about 2 hours later i am finally able to log back in. To find myself in a POD.

Since this i have really not felt like playing and have only logged in to chat with corp mates and do skill changes. This is not whining this is a serious gameplay issue, the most serious issue i would say. I understand there is only one server with many clusters around the world and i can only imagine the logistics and code required to keep it all working, but something has to be done.

The thing i enjoy most in this game is large scale battles and as it stands, i cannot do that. CCP has made improvments and i am glad those things have happened.

If there is anything i would like to see the CSM work more for it is this, we can worry about game balance after we have fixed the gameplay issues. I voted in the CSM, make my vote count =P

Andrew

P.S. goonswarm did not lose a titan due to a 'strategic mistake' it was lag plain and simple. The story in eve-news was not accurate.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:28:00 - [2]
 

Pretty sure CCP always has an eye to lag and would love to make it possible for 500v500 battles to be lag free. Thing is I think it is just the nature of the beast. There is no way around it with current technology. When you have 400 people on one grid all doing this and that the calculation requirements on the server go nuts.

I'm not sure there will be an answer to this short of considerably more powerful computers. As such your only answer now is don't willingly engage in 200 v. 200 battles! You know the lag beast awaits you. Try and make lots of 20 person gangs and be more nimble and avoid their 200 person fleet.

I wouldn't mind if CCP found a way to penalize large fleets frankly to encourage small(er) sized fleets. However anytime I have seen that suggested a large contingent screams bloody murder that they should be able to do 2 bazillion people on a node if they want. Rolling Eyes

Dapto
Minmatar
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.05 08:54:00 - [3]
 

Sorry Enjia, my comment is and CCP thinks Faction WARS will work and be lag free?

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.05 17:06:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Enjia Fullblood


P.S. goonswarm did not lose a titan due to a 'strategic mistake' it was lag plain and simple. The story in eve-news was not accurate.


Well, that's mincing words. The 'strategic mistake' was using the Titan in the first place when we weren't certain the node could handle it. (It couldn't). I wouldn't fault Eve-news for their attempt to tell a story, even if it is a partial work of fiction. They're story tellers.

Regarding lag... I agree with you that it sucks. I'm also not going to pretend to know the source. I don't believe CCP WANTS their game to run like garbage. I'm sure if they could find a way to reduce it they would. There are really only two possible answers to why this has not been done in my view.

1) They don't know
2) The solution is too expensive.

While I'm more than happy to raise the issue at the CSM and have a chat with the devs and try to at least get some form of answer out of them I don't believe that it's not something they're not already concerned with. I'm sure it will be a long topic of discussion in Iceland and it will find its way onto the agenda one way or another.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.05 17:07:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Pretty sure CCP always has an eye to lag and would love to make it possible for 500v500 battles to be lag free. Thing is I think it is just the nature of the beast. There is no way around it with current technology. When you have 400 people on one grid all doing this and that the calculation requirements on the server go nuts.

I'm not sure there will be an answer to this short of considerably more powerful computers. As such your only answer now is don't willingly engage in 200 v. 200 battles! You know the lag beast awaits you. Try and make lots of 20 person gangs and be more nimble and avoid their 200 person fleet.

I wouldn't mind if CCP found a way to penalize large fleets frankly to encourage small(er) sized fleets. However anytime I have seen that suggested a large contingent screams bloody murder that they should be able to do 2 bazillion people on a node if they want. Rolling Eyes



Artificial limits on fleet sizes won't do a thing for Eve Online as a whole.

Damien Cerverus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.06 02:46:00 - [6]
 

seconded and signed

as a witness of mega lag generated by the NC and Trisurg wars (especially the QCWA- incident)the lag issue needs to be addressed by the eve-devs if at all possible.

one suggestion ive heard from a tech friend of mine was eve should go multi threaded. helps server end lag and user end lag for multi core processors

thoughts?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.06.06 03:48:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Pretty sure CCP always has an eye to lag and would love to make it possible for 500v500 battles to be lag free. Thing is I think it is just the nature of the beast. There is no way around it with current technology. When you have 400 people on one grid all doing this and that the calculation requirements on the server go nuts.

I'm not sure there will be an answer to this short of considerably more powerful computers. As such your only answer now is don't willingly engage in 200 v. 200 battles! You know the lag beast awaits you. Try and make lots of 20 person gangs and be more nimble and avoid their 200 person fleet.

I wouldn't mind if CCP found a way to penalize large fleets frankly to encourage small(er) sized fleets. However anytime I have seen that suggested a large contingent screams bloody murder that they should be able to do 2 bazillion people on a node if they want. Rolling Eyes



Artificial limits on fleet sizes won't do a thing for Eve Online as a whole.


then people will just fight without the fleet system, no reason metagaming doesn't work.

also you can't nerf metagaming.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2008.06.06 17:46:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Taedrin on 06/06/2008 17:47:41
Originally by: Damien Cerverus
seconded and signed

as a witness of mega lag generated by the NC and Trisurg wars (especially the QCWA- incident)the lag issue needs to be addressed by the eve-devs if at all possible.

one suggestion ive heard from a tech friend of mine was eve should go multi threaded. helps server end lag and user end lag for multi core processors

thoughts?


Multi-threading is only possible when the problem can be solved in parallel. Computing irrational numbers, analyzing protein structures and folding behaviors and processing background radiation are all problems which can be subdivided easily, and processed in multiple threads. But think about it rationally... how could you subdivide EVE's combat system?

When events occur in EVE's combat system, they MUST happen in order. For example, the 2 similar scenarios are identical except for their order of execution, but have 2 completely opposite results!

Scenario 1:
Titan starts warp attempt
HIC tackles Titan
Titan reaches necessary speed to warp
RESULT: Titan fails to enter warp

Scenario 2:
Titan starts warp attempt
Titan reaches necessary speed to warp
HIC tackles Titan
RESULT: Titan gets away (HIC doesn't tackle Titan until it is already in warp)

If you have 2 threads computing the same engagement, but both threads produce different results, how should you reconcile the differences? Which one is right? Which one is wrong? This problem becomes much larger as you increase the number of interacting entities and the number of threads.


Multi-threading is not a silver bullet. When you have multiple threads working on the same data, you have a whole new slew of bugs and problems. Resource locking, race conditions, deadlock, livelock, etc... And on top of this, you still have the same bottlenecks that a single threaded app has: Memory bandwidth, I/O lag, waiting for devices, etc... The problem is that even if you multithreaded EVE combat, all the threads would be trying to access the same resources (memory). The advantages of multithreading are diminished when the threads have to wait for their turn to access a resource.

Now, CCP WILL be distributing SOME systems of EVE across multiple CPUs. They have stated that when they implement RDMA, market transactions and station activities will not effect out of station activities. This will hopefully help out immensely. The thing that I want to see implemented though, is dynamic node balancing. IIRC, currently in order for a system to be reinforced, they have to take the node down and manually set it up to work only on a single system. If they can get dynamic node balancing working, a system could be automatically reinforced when a large fleet jumps in, without CCP intervention.

/EDIT:
However, I am in full support in multithreading the client, since the client performs NO vital computations in itself. I would really like it if EVE didn't lock up my entire computer everytime I opened up the market window, or tried to log in.

Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2008.06.07 18:08:00 - [9]
 

Shortly after Fanfest last year I read on the forums that CCP is working with IBM to create one of the largest super computers in Europe to be our server. Dynamic node processing, dynamic memory allocation, etc.

I'm sure the old threads are still around here somewhere.

Walter Skinner
Posted - 2008.06.08 08:40:00 - [10]
 

I wish they'd put an optional 'Update' button on the market and not have it happen automatically.

I sell something then have to wait a few seconds for the client to query the server for the new price list when I'm no longer interested in that item.

Sure it would only cut down a small bit of traffic/server load(?) but it would get rid of an annoyance at the same time.


 

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