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blankseplocked [Issue] Remote repairing can flippers
 
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Temitten
Posted - 2008.05.25 11:59:00 - [1]
 

As someone who has enjoyed killing can flippers many a time there is one thing that annoys the hell out of me.
Sometimes you have your flipper coming up to you in a ship that evenly matches what you're in, a fun test of skill and tactics it would seem. However, as soon as the fight starts you notice your opponent brings in a support gang to remote repair him. Now the combat fitted cruiser vs trap fitted cruiser fight (with the odds already favoring the combat fit) turned into combat cruiser + a bunch of bs remote repairing him vs trap cruiser. And if you're stupid enough to engage any of the new red blinkies you'll die quickly of course.
At this point obviously the only thing you can hope for is to warp away intact.
Am I the only who thinks that interfering in a fight, such as remote repairing one side, should be considered equivalent to engaging the other side (and be concorded when applicable)?
I am all for can flipping, obviously, and would like mechanics that encourage more of it, but this can flipping with no risk at all (except of course the very slight risk that I'd have an equal sized gang of corp members nearby, which I dont!) I find very lame and bordering an exploit. Especially since alts in other corps can do it.
(I already scan local for more members of the flippers corp before engaging, but seeing as anyone can repair him that doesn't really matter much)

Hersheff
NTeK Industries
Posted - 2008.05.25 12:21:00 - [2]
 

I can define can flipping as an exploit, as you deceive noob's to aggro and then kill them.

And now you even complain about the fact that some might think ahead and deceived the deceiver.

Temitten
Posted - 2008.05.25 12:32:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Hersheff
I can define can flipping as an exploit, as you deceive noob's to aggro and then kill them.

And now you even complain about the fact that some might think ahead and deceived the deceiver.


No no, you got it all wrong. Am I that bad at getting my point across?

Piitaq
Gallente
19th Star Logistics
Posted - 2008.05.25 13:54:00 - [4]
 

I think the problem is, theft is not a crime. So CONCORD doesnt respond to a can being flipped or a wreck being looted.

What the remote repper is doing, is actually aiding a thief. So if theivery isnt a crime why should aiding one be?


Im not supporting can flippers in any way shape or form. Infact I despise them.

Can flippers are by nature the lowest of low scum, they prey on noobs and carebears, because they have a hard time fighting real PvPers in low or null sec space. So they try to pick a fight with a mining barge or an industrial ship.
If you dock up and come back in a PvP fitted ship, they either run, or call in their support gang as youve described. Should the amazing thing happen, and the can flipper stays in belt and fights an honourable 1 Vs 1, then youve most likely met a bored PvPer who is looking for a good gank. His ship is most likely pimped with factional and officer modules, and he got 25 million skill points in the gunnery department. Even if you are a semi decent PvPer, you will most definately get killed.

Temitten
Posted - 2008.05.25 14:10:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Piitaq
I think the problem is, theft is not a crime. So CONCORD doesnt respond to a can being flipped or a wreck being looted.

What the remote repper is doing, is actually aiding a thief. So if theivery isnt a crime why should aiding one be?



You are of course right, but this is the mechanic I would like changed, I would indeed like aiding theivery to be a crime even though the actual theft is not. After all, aiding the thief directly, like attacking me, would result in concord action. Remote repairing the thief will influence the outcome of the fight to almost the same extent.


Originally by: Piitaq

Should the amazing thing happen, and the can flipper stays in belt and fights an honourable 1 Vs 1, then youve most likely met a bored PvPer who is looking for a good gank. His ship is most likely pimped with factional and officer modules, and he got 25 million skill points in the gunnery department. Even if you are a semi decent PvPer, you will most definately get killed.


The "amazing" thing happens all the time, I do not dock up my scythe or osprey or whatever ship i'm trapping in and change to some "proper" pvp ship, I engage and web/warp scramble right away. I may not be semi decent at pvping, but i've killed more than 20 of them so far, and only lost 1 cruiser in a "fair" fight (a few more to remote repair gangs though).
(Also, only one of them had faction gear of any kind, faction ammo excluded Laughing)

Piitaq
Gallente
19th Star Logistics
Posted - 2008.05.25 14:28:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Temitten
Originally by: Piitaq

Should the amazing thing happen, and the can flipper stays in belt and fights an honourable 1 Vs 1, then youve most likely met a bored PvPer who is looking for a good gank. His ship is most likely pimped with factional and officer modules, and he got 25 million skill points in the gunnery department. Even if you are a semi decent PvPer, you will most definately get killed.


The "amazing" thing happens all the time, I do not dock up my scythe or osprey or whatever ship i'm trapping in and change to some "proper" pvp ship, I engage and web/warp scramble right away. I may not be semi decent at pvping, but i've killed more than 20 of them so far, and only lost 1 cruiser in a "fair" fight (a few more to remote repair gangs though).
(Also, only one of them had faction gear of any kind, faction ammo excluded Laughing)


Seems like you are "mining" with the goal to attract some can flippers, and have some fun fighting them.

I on the other hand mine for the sake of the ORE, so when Im in the belt Im usually in a hulk, Ive heard of people taking down others in a hulk, but Im not to keen on loosing my 100 million ship to a 3 million ship. So therefore I need to dock in order to get a proper ship to match the opponent. Ive tried this a couple of times, unfortunately there are no honour among thieves. So when I showed up in a matchable ship they either ran or called in support.

I would like theft being a crime in EVE, but it doesnt seem like there are any support for this. So whenever being rubbed I just accept the loss and move on.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.25 15:33:00 - [7]
 

When you start jumping in on legal combat, you should be shootable for it(like a can thief is now), but that should be the only penalty. Isn't that how it works right now?

Originally by: Piitaq
Originally by: Temitten
Originally by: Piitaq

Should the amazing thing happen, and the can flipper stays in belt and fights an honourable 1 Vs 1, then youve most likely met a bored PvPer who is looking for a good gank. His ship is most likely pimped with factional and officer modules, and he got 25 million skill points in the gunnery department. Even if you are a semi decent PvPer, you will most definately get killed.


The "amazing" thing happens all the time, I do not dock up my scythe or osprey or whatever ship i'm trapping in and change to some "proper" pvp ship, I engage and web/warp scramble right away. I may not be semi decent at pvping, but i've killed more than 20 of them so far, and only lost 1 cruiser in a "fair" fight (a few more to remote repair gangs though).
(Also, only one of them had faction gear of any kind, faction ammo excluded Laughing)


Seems like you are "mining" with the goal to attract some can flippers, and have some fun fighting them.

I on the other hand mine for the sake of the ORE, so when Im in the belt Im usually in a hulk, Ive heard of people taking down others in a hulk, but Im not to keen on loosing my 100 million ship to a 3 million ship. So therefore I need to dock in order to get a proper ship to match the opponent. Ive tried this a couple of times, unfortunately there are no honour among thieves. So when I showed up in a matchable ship they either ran or called in support.

I would like theft being a crime in EVE, but it doesnt seem like there are any support for this. So whenever being rubbed I just accept the loss and move on.


Word of advice man, stick a scram on your combat ship Wink

Temitten
Posted - 2008.05.25 22:38:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
When you start jumping in on legal combat, you should be shootable for it(like a can thief is now), but that should be the only penalty. Isn't that how it works right now?


Yes that is exactly how it works now, and it confuses and infuriates me.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.25 23:17:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Temitten
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
When you start jumping in on legal combat, you should be shootable for it(like a can thief is now), but that should be the only penalty. Isn't that how it works right now?


Yes that is exactly how it works now, and it confuses and infuriates me.


Why? Repping a thief is the same as being a thief, and it has the same consequences. That's neither confusing nor irritating to me. The aggro rules are a bit odd in places, but the rules on repairing make good sense - it's never a crime to repair someone, but it means that anyone in legal combat with them gets to shoot you too. Of course if "anyone" is Concord then you're boned, but that's just a natural.

Temitten
Posted - 2008.05.25 23:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto


Why? Repping a thief is the same as being a thief, and it has the same consequences. That's neither confusing nor irritating to me. The aggro rules are a bit odd in places, but the rules on repairing make good sense - it's never a crime to repair someone, but it means that anyone in legal combat with them gets to shoot you too. Of course if "anyone" is Concord then you're boned, but that's just a natural.


Ok it doesn't actually confuse me. However, it is very annoying. The can flipper already has the advantage of choosing if my ship is worth picking a fight with.
I have enough things to worry about without having to consider if what appears to be a mining apoc a couple of km away is actually sporting some remote reps and or armor maintenance drones.
I'd settle for allowing corp mates to repair fellow corp members, but repairing a thief outside of your corp should get your barbecued (of course there would have to be a warning, I can see all kinds of hilarious accidents happen otherwise).
I should be the one doing the trapping, not the other way around Very Happy

Buck Starchaser
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
Posted - 2008.05.31 10:43:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Temitten
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto


Why? Repping a thief is the same as being a thief, and it has the same consequences. That's neither confusing nor irritating to me. The aggro rules are a bit odd in places, but the rules on repairing make good sense - it's never a crime to repair someone, but it means that anyone in legal combat with them gets to shoot you too. Of course if "anyone" is Concord then you're boned, but that's just a natural.


Ok it doesn't actually confuse me. However, it is very annoying. The can flipper already has the advantage of choosing if my ship is worth picking a fight with.
I have enough things to worry about without having to consider if what appears to be a mining apoc a couple of km away is actually sporting some remote reps and or armor maintenance drones.
I'd settle for allowing corp mates to repair fellow corp members, but repairing a thief outside of your corp should get your barbecued (of course there would have to be a warning, I can see all kinds of hilarious accidents happen otherwise).
I should be the one doing the trapping, not the other way around Very Happy


That's just a simple twist on the bait and gank. It's very common in 0.0 and it can still be worked in your favor. When you're selecting and setting up your bait ship for someone to come steal your crap here's a coupple things to aim for. Either build your ship to incapacitate the target with scram, tracking disruptors, ecm drones, etc. so he's no longer as tough as you while you burn him down. switch to your dammage drones when you feel it's safe or jam him with ECM drones if things go wrong so he can't scram you and you warp (and ditch your ecm drones in the process). The other basic setup is to go for as much gank as you can stuff on there and try to melt him before those big, slow, repping BS's can come out of warp and get a lock on him. If they're using remote armor reps you'll get 1 more salvo in before they finish the cycle and he gets his armor. If there are potential allies to him within, say 10-15k of him (max range on a good remote large rep is like 8700m) and he is moving twords them then abort. You can also zoom in on the other ships to see if they're missing turrets. Mining lasers have a certain look to them and blank spots can be remote reppers or anything.

The guys you're trying to get are the lamest as they are atempting to single out only the people that can't defend themselves properly, or simply haven't learned yet, thus making it a sucker gank. Only someone that hasn't learned what is about to happen falls for his tricks. Hope this helps.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2008.05.31 13:42:00 - [12]
 

you could bring your own rep gang too Wink
trap, counter-trap, counter-counter-trap, counter-... you get the ideaLaughing

Beaverid Tesu
Posted - 2008.05.31 14:48:00 - [13]
 

Or... you could just not jettison the ore that you mine in the first place. Wink

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.31 15:48:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Temitten
Originally by: Hersheff
I can define can flipping as an exploit, as you deceive noob's to aggro and then kill them.

And now you even complain about the fact that some might think ahead and deceived the deceiver.


No no, you got it all wrong. Am I that bad at getting my point across?

Apparently so.

From what I read you want to make it so corpmates are unable to help eachother in high sec. Which is absurd. The whole point of being in a corp is that you the **** disturbing instigator aggro his entire corp.


 

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