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Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.25 04:33:00 - [1]
 

Why are Learning skills in the game?
  1. A kind of hazing - we all had to do it, so, so shall you?
  2. A "test" for newbies to prove their loyalty to the game?
  3. A throttle for fun?
  4. CCP's equivalent of skinning boars until you get to level 70 leatherworking?

  5. or is it

  6. A terrible terrible mistake?

I think CCP knows learning skills were a mistake; the fact that they haven't removed them is probably because they fear a backlash from older players (see point A above). I urge CSM to use your soap box to tell CCP that we the players will support the removal of learning skills. Discuss.

Brachis
Caldari
Eve Liberation Force
OWN Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.25 07:05:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Brachis on 25/05/2008 07:19:23
I'd love to see learning skills balanced out by removing them entirely, and giving all players the effects of having each and every learning skill at level 5.
This could either be done by removing the skills and their bonuses, and replacing them with a global stat boost or by removing the skills and their bonuses, and scaling skillpoint accumulation globally to match it (And make it as though everyone effectively had each learning skill at level 10 invisibly).

Why this is good for both new players and old players:

All players have the benefit of an increased global skillpoint gain, which speeds up the process of getting things in general.
New players benefit the most from this because it will greatly help with accelerating them into a capable position of matching players who have been around for many months or years longer than they have.

And, of course, old players benefit as well, because by simply improving skillpoint gain globally, you don't actually invalidate the time and resources that those players spent in the learning skills. They have the advantage of having had the faster skillpoint accumulation rate for however long they've had the learning skills.

Learning skills WERE a mistake, and it needs to be corrected.

Edit: This thread should really be in Assebly Hall, not Jita Park.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.25 16:50:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Brachis
Edit: This thread should really be in Assebly Hall, not Jita Park.

Ah, well, you do it.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.26 09:51:00 - [4]
 

Yep learning skills seem a terrible thing. I had a friend starting Eve about a year ago and he was actually playing another mmo (wow, for that matter) for months while training the learning skills (he did the occasional lvl1/2 missions but couldn't go above those).
So yeah, it indeed is really painful and it almost seems like it's some kind of tax we pay to CCP for those months when we barely play. Yep a new can do many things as well but not too many and you reach your limits quite fast and get bored without useful skills.

Or remove them for good and lower the training multipliers. But then I demand a stat resetting option to get rid of my highest stat, charisma, even if it takes training time or $$ :)

RoCkEt X
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2008.05.26 12:41:00 - [5]
 

If you remove learning skills i want my sp compensated - as will many other players. CCP would have to go thru every player and have them select skills to be modified, with CCP's massive client-base - this would be impractical.

i trained my learning skills to make my char train faster, if i did it - you should have to aswell...

would also point out that learning skills are optional, and you train them to whatever level you feel worth it, which is good.

WHEN I TRAINED MY LEARNING SKILLS YOU NEEDED BASIC LEARNING SKILLS TO 5 TO TRAIN ADVANCED.

so stop whining, new guys these days have it much easier than we did.

Joe Failbreaker (sorry... the guys said i had to), your ignorance is as amazing as it was when we removed you from our alliance. MOST of eve feels learning skills are a valuable part of this game - delayed satisfaction is part of eve, i hope it remains this way for years to come.

-RoCkEt X


Cpt Striker
Posted - 2008.05.26 18:57:00 - [6]
 

"delayed satisfaction is part of eve, i hope it remains this way for years to come."

This is pure idiocy in the context of skill training. What possible benefit is there to delayed satisfaction? As someone who has trained all the learning skills, before the prequisites for the advanced ones were lowered, i believe them to have added nothing of value to the game experience. To force others, and especially newer players, to endure such a lengthy timesink, in order to be able to compete is just selfish and short sighted.

People should be encouraged to enjoy the fun and interesting parts of the game right from the outset. A system which all but requires a certain level of learning skills in order to even begin the process of competeing with the established player base is, in my opinion, flawed. Remove the skills.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.26 19:54:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: RoCkEt X
a. A kind of hazing - we all had to do it, so, so shall you?

I don't think this is a good enough reason. Certainly not from the point of view of CCP, a company that wants to attract new players to its game.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.26 21:15:00 - [8]
 

Linkage
No point in posting the same thing all over again.

Theramin Dogon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.26 22:04:00 - [9]
 

You do realize that if you get rid of learning skills, you'll train everything else slower.

Cpt Striker
Posted - 2008.05.26 22:09:00 - [10]
 

.....whooooooosh....

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.26 22:25:00 - [11]
 

As requested, I cross-posted this in the other CSM forum, and then was told that there was already a thread there. Y'all now have three threads in which to agree with me.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.27 00:41:00 - [12]
 

People have been gaining SP at an accelerated rate because of them for years now, are you saying that the accelerated learning times should be denied to new players, or would you delete a few million skillpoints from the older players because they never should have had those attribute bonuses? What about existing players who never fully trained learning, or who missed out on the full benefits because they waited for a few months/years before they got around to the learning skills? Are they going to have their total SP increased to compensate for the skillplan choices they made?

You can argue that learning skills were a terrible idea and should never have been introduced, or that in a hypothetical EVE 2 game they shouldn't be made available, but winding the clock back on the existing game at this stage causes more problems than it solves.

Comander Brenni
Kraktech Industries
Posted - 2008.05.27 04:44:00 - [13]
 

The learnig skills are optional, you choose to train then if you think this vill be benefitial.
learning skills shoud be as they were basic to lvl 5 before you soud be able to train the "advanced" learning skills.
and what happaned to the real advanced learning skills CCP? the ones that shoud have a 5 x ore even a 8 x time multiplyer?
I woud love the possebillety to be able to fly implantless and stil have my +15 to a stat.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.27 05:29:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
People have been gaining SP at an accelerated rate because of them for years now, are you saying that the accelerated learning times should be denied to new players

I don't think I said that. CCP should just pick a rate somewhere about the average currently enjoyed (+6 or +7 attribute effect) so everybody trains fairly quickly.

RoCkEt X
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2008.05.27 11:43:00 - [15]
 

in the context of skills as with everywhere else, its fine to have delayed rewards.

i.e.

invest time in learning skills - train everything else faster.

the whole point in learning skills is that YOU can choose to what level they are worth training, its the same with every other skill in eve. like 'is the lvl 5 for warhead upgrades worth 2% extra damage for 20 days of training?' if the answer is no - then you dont train it, if its yes - then you do.

learning skills also act as a buffer, otherwise people would get into larger ships when they were still very new, so they know less of the game and will lose them, although it takes time its a built in safety measure.

people would be more likely to leave eve if they got killed in bigger ships every day because they did not know enough about eve to keep them alive than if they have to spend a few weeks training learning skills and slowly learning the essential bits

Quote:
I urge CSM to use your soap box to tell CCP that we the players will support the removal of learning skills.


this is clearly not true.

not only that but IF you get rid of learning skills, there is no PRACTICAL way to reimburse the people who lose out.

THE CHOICES YOU MAKE IN EVE DETERMINE YOUR SUCCESS AS A PLAYER, LEARNING SKILLS ARE ONE OF THOSE CHOICES

Slistine Death
Sons of Angelus Mortis
Posted - 2008.05.27 14:54:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Slistine Death on 27/05/2008 14:54:16
Originally by: RoCkEt X
Joe Failbreaker (sorry... the guys said i had to), your ignorance is as amazing as it was when we removed you from our alliance.



/signed to Rocket's comment

Learning skills suck, but they are a good training buffer for new players and allow you to specialize your character. Just because you can't use evemon, be little patient, and read more about how to play the game doesn't mean the rest of eve wants to hear you whine about your failures.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:55:00 - [17]
 

The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort.

Skill training in EVE is one of the things that separates it from other online games and makes EVE better than other games. In those other games you acquire XP during actual play and use it to boost your skills. EVE's system works for those that don't want to run macro's 24/7 or sit on their duffs for 10 hours every day playing just to acquire XP.

Windjammer

Die Warzau
Posted - 2008.05.28 19:22:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage.

False analogy IMHO. It would be silly to train a trade skill if you didn't intend to trade. However, every EVE player intends to train skills, forever, for the duration of his/her EVE career (one would hope!). Not training learning skills is therefore de facto a wrong decision, always. No other skill or group of skills is always wrong not to train.

The existence of learning skills is just a test of how quickly you figure out how to download EveMon and nothing else. I also find it telling that most of Joe's dissenters seem to have had in-game run ins with him (and therefore very likely ulterior motives for disagreeing with him).

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.28 22:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Die Warzau
Quote:
By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage.

False analogy IMHO. It would be silly to train a trade skill if you didn't intend to trade. However, every EVE player intends to train skills, forever, for the duration of his/her EVE career (one would hope!). Not training learning skills is therefore de facto a wrong decision, always. No other skill or group of skills is always wrong not to train.

The existence of learning skills is just a test of how quickly you figure out how to download EveMon and nothing else. I also find it telling that most of Joe's dissenters seem to have had in-game run ins with him (and therefore very likely ulterior motives for disagreeing with him).
The analogy only seems false because you don't extend it to its completion. Your logic is firm for as far as it goes. However, what you're not taking into account is that a large number of people do not train learning skills or at least do not do so right away. I've run into many pilots who feel that it's a waste of time and prefer to go directly to whatever they wish to pursue. Most of these seem to be PvP oriented pilots.

Thus training a learning skill becomes a strategic decision. One something like Eve-Mon can't help you with. Are you better served to train learning skills to completion first or are you going to get to where you want to go faster by training gunnery, etc, first and worrying about learning skills later? Later when you might want to have them to tackle some of the really long training times.

Remember, it takes a long time to train learning skills. Even with the faster training those skills give you, it takes a long time to recover the time lost while training them. Most of the early skills we train are so short that maxed learning skills don't give you any kind of significant advantage.

Finally, for the record, I've never had a "run in" with Joe in game or to the best of my knowledge in the forums.

Regards,
Windjammer

Sentinel x
Caldari
Syadyne Corporation
Posted - 2008.05.29 00:24:00 - [20]
 

I smell a noob wanting the easy way out.

Cilvius Sanctus
Gallente
The Order of Chivalry
Nex Eternus
Posted - 2008.05.29 00:30:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
People have been gaining SP at an accelerated rate because of them for years now, are you saying that the accelerated learning times should be denied to new players

I don't think I said that. CCP should just pick a rate somewhere about the average currently enjoyed (+6 or +7 attribute effect) so everybody trains fairly quickly.


So you want to make everybody train everything at the same rate (before implants)? Why not just make every player equal in this game. Garbage.

You train the skills that you want to train to gain an advantage over the players that haven't trained those skills (be it at all or to the same level as you). If I have Battleship 4 and you only have it to 2, my battleship gets more of a bonus than yours. Should we fix this as well so that we all get the same bonus regardless of whether or not you have Battleship 1 or Battleship 5?

Rauleff Xerxes
Posted - 2008.05.29 03:22:00 - [22]
 

sniff sniff, I smell fail.

Laae Aenus
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.05.29 11:57:00 - [23]
 

Meh, the problem is, whenever someones mentions learning skill everyone assumes it has to be to lvl5 for basic skills, and level 4 for adv. skills. To be honest, all those people who say:
"I had a friend and he was doing training skills for the first two months..."

Sorry to say, but that is rather stupid. Everyone knows that the skills you'll be messing with in the first few months are usually (1) - (3) and shouldn't be taking too long anyway. When you get up to the need to get a lot of skills to lvl4 and most of those skills are above (3), that's where you start bothering with adv. skills. My point being is that if learning skills ruin your fun, you're really not doing it correctly. Ok, sure, you might save a few days... but then again, if you actually do something in the meantime, you can probably get +3/+4 implants faster. I don't have a full set of lvl5/4 skills, but I'm considering it only now, because I'm training quite a few lvl5s. I think learning skills should remain the way they are.

OP does fail on all points, since he treats learning skills as 'this is what you have to do for the first two months', which is clearly not the case, not even close.

Evil Simian
Posted - 2008.05.29 12:50:00 - [24]
 

Getting all the learning skills to 4/5 in the first two months is just silly.
Yeah, get them up as soon as possible but don't do them all back to back.
Get the small guns\frig stuff you want then go for a level in focus or some such, spread it out, mix in the skills that get you stuff etc.

I think to get all skills to level 5 is something like 20,000 days and with all basic learning skills at 5 and the advanced ones at 4 that drops by 8 or 9 thousand days.

I know that's an over the top example but given they have that much effect, leave them in.

The advanced ones were brought in later right?
Have the basic ones always been in the game?
I can completely understand why they were brought in given how long things take in this game.

Deal with it, there's no decent way to remove them and please the majority.

Devon Vorberg
Gallente
The Citadel Mining Company
Posted - 2008.05.29 13:05:00 - [25]
 

Learning skills add a level of choice to the game that I think only makes the experience richer. Not all games are a race to the top of a skilltree, and EVE definitely gives you options. Next thing you know, people like this are going to be arguing that everyone should have all attributes at 20 automatically!

I have just spent the last year deployed to Iraq, where I cannot even log in to play EVE. I have a family member change my skills when he is able, and when he can't, I just lose training time. But I take what I can get. If this puts me "behind the curve" as far as skills go, so be it. At least I'm able to interact with EVE a little. And no, my learning skills aren't all maxed yet. (close, but not all)

Not to be insensitive, but if you have such a problem with learning skills, that tells me you haven't finished training them yet. Suck it up, put in the time, and you'll never have to worry about them again.

Lastly, as I have put in the time and trianed up all my skills, I can still promise you that I pretty much suck in combat. Call it bad luck, I dunno. But I know plenty of guys flying T1 ships with starting skills who will stomp older players like myself. It's not all what's on your character sheet... some of it is real skill. (and a LOT of luck and friends!)

Just my 2isk.

Devon Vorberg

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:18:00 - [26]
 

leave them alone.

What gives you the right to say newcommers are better than vets? thats what you are saying here "no learning skills". When we all signed up it was known that if you were planning on playing less than 1 year, dont go passed learning 4. Now there are advanced learning skills and that 64 day Battleship 5 skill only takes about 20 days. Worth the learning skill time no?

Anisa Schardl
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:38:00 - [27]
 

I'm a noob. I've got about 2.5 weeks left to finish 5/4 learning. It's mind numbingly boring. And I think they should NOT be taken out.

Why? Because they offer you a choice as to how you want to develop your character, just like the rest of the skills do. They're not mandatory in any way, which can be clearly seen by rooting around people's skill readouts. A lot of people haven't trained much into learning. Are they wrong to do this? No. They made a choice that they'd rather train something else, and it probably benefitted them by giving them the ability to do something they wanted faster.

Me personally, I trained 4/3 learning fairly quickly (within the first two weeks), then I trained a bunch of other stuff, got up into a battlecruiser and started running 3's. Once I had that going, I went back and am finishing up 5/4. For ME, it was more important to train into a decent ship so I could run good missions than it was to sit in my frigate for the first 6 weeks training nothing but learning. In the LONG run, I would have had more skill points, but it was well worth it to me to be able to have fun and play the game in a battlecruiser quickly than it was to maximize my theoretical skillpoints.

Heroldyn
Posted - 2008.05.29 16:08:00 - [28]
 

if you feel that learning skills are an issue, you should be posting that in the "Assembly Hall" Forum,
and see if there is major support for removal of them.

actually i believe there is allready such a thread in said forum.


Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:48:00 - [29]
 

HAHAHA all these PPL *****ing about what a "waste of time it was maxing out the learning skills" back 3 plus years back have now evolved into PPL moaning about what an unfair advantage they are to the PPL who maxed them out!


Taradis
Amarr
The Imperial Assassins
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2008.06.03 09:16:00 - [30]
 

Quite frankly I like how it works thats one of the things that sets this MMO apart from the others. With games like WoW you have to constantly play for hrs on end to get anywhere in the game at least with this you set it and forget it plus if you took away the learning skills it would mess up the balance and it would be a huge deal to rebalance. So leave the damn learning skills alone thats such a noob thing to say imo... I for one will not support this...


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