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blankseplocked 24/5/2008 Opening CSM formal meeting complete - Minutes to follow
 
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.27 15:26:00 - [31]
 

Hey, sorry I was away all weekend from immediately after the meeting onward. I don't personally have any problem with the release of complete meeting logs and assumed that was going to be done.

Inanna Zuni
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.05.27 16:17:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 27/05/2008 22:21:44
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Still waiting to here from:
...
Inanna Zuni

On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend.


I point the Chair to the second post in this thread wherein: "For my own part, I stand by all that I said and have no issue with what I said being public." I do not see it as my job to make a decision on behalf of another Council member as to what the chatlog may include from them, indeed it would be way exceeding my authority (little as it is!)

IZ

ps. "hear" from

Abriana Overlord
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:52:00 - [33]
 

I appreciate there is a process to be run here, and process is important but bloody hell it should not take this long to get meeting minutes out.

Just release the raw log or are you censoring before this thing gets going.

All I see so far is failure to communicate anything of value from meeting that took place days ago

If it continues in this vane i fail to see how this body will represent some of the player base effectively.

I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being

Malar
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:03:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Malar on 27/05/2008 18:04:00
Originally by: Abriana Overlord
I appreciate there is a process to be run here, and process is important but bloody hell it should not take this long to get meeting minutes out.

Just release the raw log or are you censoring before this thing gets going.

All I see so far is failure to communicate anything of value from meeting that took place days ago

If it continues in this vane i fail to see how this body will represent some of the player base effectively.

I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The guy above has a point.

edit:
(girl even - although based on pure statistics, i was prolly right the first time:P Still, the avatar is a female one.)

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:15:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Abriana Overlord
I appreciate there is a process to be run here, and process is important but bloody hell it should not take this long to get meeting minutes out.

Just release the raw log or are you censoring before this thing gets going.

All I see so far is failure to communicate anything of value from meeting that took place days ago

If it continues in this vane i fail to see how this body will represent some of the player base effectively.

I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being


We got the meeting minutes sent off to CCP yesterday, they will be responsible for publishing those. All the hold up with the with chat log is the problem stemming from me not getting people's explicit support to publish at the first meeting - this will get addressed, I'll push a formal vote on the subject at the next meeting and if passed the raw text of future meetings will be available very soon after meetings to come.

As to the principle of transparency. I want this chatlog public. If we can get Hardin, Bane and Dierdra to say yes on this thread tonight I'll post the thing as soon as possible.

Fair enough?






Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:25:00 - [36]
 

I'm disturbed this was ever a question. As members of CSM you have given up the right to anonymity when engaged in CSM business. Obviously the NDA portions of your discussions can not be publicized and everyone knows you have to edit those out. However, the rest of CSM business, including disagreements, arguments and misbehaviour are the business of the people who elected you. Your constituency is the entirety of the EVE community and you are responsible to them within that context.

Closed door sessions have always been the domain of those who don't want to be held accountable for their actions. i.e. in the next elections.

Regards,
Windjammer

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:29:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
I'm disturbed this was ever a question. As members of CSM you have given up the right to anonymity when engaged in CSM business. Obviously the NDA portions of your discussions can not be publicized and everyone knows you have to edit those out. However, the rest of CSM business, including disagreements, arguments and misbehaviour are the business of the people who elected you. Your constituency is the entirety of the EVE community and you are responsible to them within that context.

Closed door sessions have always been the domain of those who don't want to be held accountable for their actions. i.e. in the next elections.

Regards,
Windjammer


I agree completely, but since it didn't get explicitly raised at the first meeting I'm just being polite and scrupulous here in allowing each CSM rep to have their say on the issue. Its very important that the Chair doesn't ride roughshod over the opinions (and votes) of the council members.


Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:32:00 - [38]
 

I do not object to the chatlog being made public

Abriana Overlord
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:35:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Abriana Overlord
I appreciate there is a process to be run here, and process is important but bloody hell it should not take this long to get meeting minutes out.

Just release the raw log or are you censoring before this thing gets going.

All I see so far is failure to communicate anything of value from meeting that took place days ago

If it continues in this vane i fail to see how this body will represent some of the player base effectively.

I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being


We got the meeting minutes sent off to CCP yesterday, they will be responsible for publishing those. All the hold up with the with chat log is the problem stemming from me not getting people's explicit support to publish at the first meeting - this will get addressed, I'll push a formal vote on the subject at the next meeting and if passed the raw text of future meetings will be available very soon after meetings to come.

As to the principle of transparency. I want this chatlog public. If we can get Hardin, Bane and Dierdra to say yes on this thread tonight I'll post the thing as soon as possible.

Fair enough?








Firstly thanks for taking the time to repond constructively

As a stakeholder I have an expectation as do many others within the playerbase that minutes such as these are distributed in a timely fashion.

I appreciate it is early days as such it will take some time to get things running smoothly.

Whether it is ccp or the csm directly who publish the minutes is not of interest to myself or many in the playerbase, what is important is seeing the content.

This then aids to reassure us that the CSM is representing us as our expectation have been set and that the people we elected are living up to their promises

As stated previously, I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.27 20:01:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Serenity Steele on 27/05/2008 20:22:02
Originally by: Abriana Overlord
I appreciate it is early days as such it will take some time to get things running smoothly.


Yep, that's all it is. 1st meeting of 1st CSM.
Minutes are off to CCP. Logs are just waiting on confirmation from members before release.
Won't be an issue, Jade just want to get consensus.

Abriana Overlord
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.27 21:11:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Serenity Steele
Edited by: Serenity Steele on 27/05/2008 20:22:02
Originally by: Abriana Overlord
I appreciate it is early days as such it will take some time to get things running smoothly.


Yep, that's all it is. 1st meeting of 1st CSM.
Minutes are off to CCP. Logs are just waiting on confirmation from members before release.
Won't be an issue, Jade just want to get consensus.


Given this is the first meetng however, I would expect a degree of expediency as would many others in the player base.

Is it possible to reset our expectations as to when we will have visibilty. As soon as possible is not what people are looking for, simply x date they will be available will suffice.

Regards

Sunwillow Auryn
Posted - 2008.05.27 22:17:00 - [42]
 

I think there have been two good points mentioned in this thread regarding a bit of delay between the meeting and issuing the full chat log:

1) possible NDA reasons (unlikely this early, but a possibility for later for those who are sure to scream cover-up)
2) RL details such as email and phone contacts (it's all very well being in the public eye, but you don't see Madonna publicising her personal phone number to all and sundry)

To which I would like to add:

3) Some things I don't want to hear about - anything unrelated to the chat at hand. If a council member is afk to use the bathroom or get a drink, I honestly don't care provided they are not afk for 1 hour 59 mins of a 2 hour meeting ;)

Malar
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.28 09:57:00 - [43]
 

Another day and still nothing. A few more days, and you will owe us two logs, not just one. I think it would be time to hurry up a little.

AltBier
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.28 10:34:00 - [44]
 

I don't see how Jade could hurry things up. The people who need to hurry up are those who have not said yes or no to the question of releasing the log.

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.28 11:07:00 - [45]
 

Since 7/9 CSM members agreed, I've put them up on the eve-csm.com site under the CSM Meeting Logs section.

Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.28 12:35:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Waterfowl Democracy on 28/05/2008 12:35:20
A 2 hour meeting in which 3 positions were decided (only one was constested) and one issue was discussed in any depth. Truely you failed at chairing the meeting Jade. I would suggest learning some techniques for effective chair(sexslavewo)manship before the next meeting.

Also, I do not appreciate the multiple times you attempted to close down discussion about valid topics. Clearly your personal opinions are clouding your judgment.

Kelsin
Dirt Dog Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.28 12:52:00 - [47]
 

Nice work CSM - things are off to a good start. Looking forward to that template. These are the sorts of things we really need taken care of so we can get down to the business of bringing concerns to CCP.

Sworn Absent
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.28 12:58:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Kelsin
Nice work CSM - things are off to a good start. Looking forward to that template. These are the sorts of things we really need taken care of so we can get down to the business of bringing concerns to CCP.


Your sarcasm is not appreciated in the CSM forums.

AltBier
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:35:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: AltBier on 28/05/2008 15:41:21
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Since 7/9 CSM members agreed, I've put them up on the eve-csm.com site under the CSM Meeting Logs section.

Thanks ... but why an RTF file?

Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
A 2 hour meeting in which 3 positions were decided (only one was constested) and one issue was discussed in any depth. Truely you failed at chairing the meeting Jade.

U R LIKE TOTALLLY FUNNY DUDE

Malar
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:54:00 - [50]
 

Reading through the logs but i can't say im too happy bout the things in it.

Okay, this was your first meeting, but i sure hope you all know you have to step up the pace a lot compared to that one.

As for the goon guy's accusation against jade. Maybe you should ask Darius to step back from the council, and it might become a lot more productive that instant.

I sure hope he was just having a bad day tho.

Looking forward to the next one.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:58:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/05/2008 15:59:44
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/05/2008 15:58:53
Originally by: Malar
Reading through the logs but i can't say im too happy bout the things in it.

Okay, this was your first meeting, but i sure hope you all know you have to step up the pace a lot compared to that one.


Yep, I think we all know that one was way too slow with too much time wasted on irrelevancies and petty detail already made clear in the founding documents. I hope that having pre-published agenda items and having thrashed out the moderation role for Chair and V Chair in the previous meeting will help the next one be a lot more productive and efficient.


Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:13:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Serenity Steele on 28/05/2008 16:13:34
Originally by: AltBier
Edited by: AltBier on 28/05/2008 15:41:21
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Since 7/9 CSM members agreed, I've put them up on the eve-csm.com site under the CSM Meeting Logs section.

Thanks ... but why an RTF file?


Speed and ability to make in readable format (column space using tab markers).
If I can work out an efficient way to make it into HTML and readable, I'll do that :)


AltBier
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:21:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: AltBier on 28/05/2008 16:44:51


What's wrong with the original chat log text files?

I find them very readable in Notepad.


Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2008.05.28 18:39:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/05/2008 15:59:44
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/05/2008 15:58:53
Originally by: Malar
Reading through the logs but i can't say im too happy bout the things in it.

Okay, this was your first meeting, but i sure hope you all know you have to step up the pace a lot compared to that one.


Yep, I think we all know that one was way too slow with too much time wasted on irrelevancies and petty detail already made clear in the founding documents. I hope that having pre-published agenda items and having thrashed out the moderation role for Chair and V Chair in the previous meeting will help the next one be a lot more productive and efficient.




Given the circumstances, the format, and the interferences, you did well.

Snitch
Posted - 2008.05.28 23:00:00 - [55]
 

I can't stand to read these threads in their full ugly glory but just in case nobody else has pointed this out I'll say this little bit.

While full disclosure sounds well and good (Sunshine laws in the states) and it usually is I can think of one obvious reason why there needs to be a way for CSM's to not have their full chat logs released.

If they are going to do their job and put the good of the game first, there will be times when they need to take a stand on an issue that will run counter to members of the community but more importantly that might upset members of their corp/alliance IG. I think that if we want there to be any chance of GS reps or Jade not just representing the interests of GS and Jade's: "we're going to grief space holding alliances by destroying their outposts from empire!" corps that they need to be able to take that stand without everyone knowing they did so.

Long winded way to make that point, posting in a hurry from work, sorry.

tl;dr:
You will reduce the ability of the CSM to make choices that are not influenced by thier IG Corp/Alliance mates feelings if they are subject to 100% transperancy.

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2008.05.29 02:01:00 - [56]
 

That was interesting. It is unfortunate that 2 Representatives decided they would not hold to traditional meeting methods and practices. Maybe they should not have run.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.29 02:16:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Athre
That was interesting. It is unfortunate that 2 Representatives decided they would not hold to traditional meeting methods and practices. Maybe they should not have run.


You were there? I don't see any minutes/chatlogs posted yet.

agent apple
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.29 02:59:00 - [58]
 

If your already conducting yourselves in a manner your ashamed for the public to see then GTFO?

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.05.29 03:04:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: agent apple
If your already conducting yourselves in a manner your ashamed for the public to see then GTFO?


Nobody has objected thus far. They're only waiting on, I believe, Hardin to chime in and say that he's okay with it. It's just a consensus check that hasn't cleared yet.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.29 07:05:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Edited by: Waterfowl Democracy on 28/05/2008 12:35:20
A 2 hour meeting in which 3 positions were decided (only one was constested) and one issue was discussed in any depth. Truely you failed at chairing the meeting Jade. I would suggest learning some techniques for effective chair(sexslavewo)manship before the next meeting.

Also, I do not appreciate the multiple times you attempted to close down discussion about valid topics. Clearly your personal opinions are clouding your judgment.
I see goonswarm is wasting no time in dispensing false allegations while at the same time being responsible for much of the problems and wasted time during the CSM meeting. Well......why not? It's a tried and true method for them.

Clearly goonswarm does not look forward to anything which might give CCP more information about the player's wishes and concerns. Apparently they prefer to file petitions and war on the forums in mass to provide a false picture to CCP.

Any further bs of the Darius nature should be dealt with by a summary dismisal and installation of an alternate. It is unacceptable for CSM meetings to be disrupted at the whim of goonswarm.

Windjammer


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