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blankseplocked EVE: Impossibly Imperfect
 
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Harpo
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:00:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Harpo on 23/05/2008 00:04:24
Edited by: Harpo on 23/05/2008 00:03:03
Why am I, after playing since beta, leaving what I believe to be (still) the best video game created?

Claim: Sandbox style games will always be imbalanced.

Claim of Fact: Players will continually find new ways to use an imbalance to their benefit. (Often labeled: exploit, or game mechanics)

Claim of Policy: Eve should properly respond to imbalances, whether exploits or not, in such a manner to service the good of this community as a whole, and not those who exploit or benefit greatly from griefing (especially given the tight-knitted nature and relatively small size of this community).

Opinion: I believe that the EVE community has become progressively worse in the five years that I have been playing as a result of delayed response to such exploits and imbalances. (Sentry gun tanking, corporate theft, nanos, race balancing, warp core stabs, the list goes on...)

Claim of Value: Eve isn't fun anymore, as more fixes that get implemented causes more fixes needed.

One such imbalance is that of suicide griefing in empire space.

Suicide griefing should be better attended to in some degree in .8 space. The mechanics in place to prevent it from happening are minuscule in comparison to the benefit of committing an act of aggression.

The griefer easily returns to 0.0 and rats for a week to renew sec. status and what has he/she lost? A Raven - that's all! Where is the risk?

If suicide bombers today in "real life" were to remain alive and given $500 mil if they destroyed a building, they would be as rampant as they are in Eve. I was told by GM Lelouch this analogy of "real world similarities", yet in real life, the griefer dies. In game life, the grieved leave the game.

I cannot support this game based on principle and based on the imbalance of risk vs. reward.

Opinion: Sandbox style games have a shelf life: as fixes are implemented, they steer the course of the game into itself until there is no other choice but to strip it, open it or start over, i.e. SWG, Planetside, UO, DAoC, EnB, etc.. Most games have never reached this point, as new games come out and take their place, leaving a subscriber base of nostalgics and fanatics. >>>Please, no straw hat arguments discrediting my claims because of this opinion... this part is purely subjective

I am sad that Eve falls prey to such truth, and yes, reframing my mind to the values that allow me to enjoy this game during each patch-debacle has helped foster my continued support throughout the years. Yet, the course has run for me.

This game was refreshing, the community insightful, the memories beautiful.

Eve is persistent to be perfect, but impossibly imperfect.

Fly safe,
-Harpo

Shakari Sween
Gallente
The Night Crew
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:02:00 - [2]
 

can i have ur stuff pretty plz!

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:04:00 - [3]
 

interestingly enough, the 'impossibly imperfect' nature of eve is what keeps me here.

Bloody Mistake
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:06:00 - [4]
 

Wth?
Sorry ... but you got a message somewhere in there?


Harpo
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:07:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Willow Whisp
interestingly enough, the 'impossibly imperfect' nature of eve is what keeps me here.


... same here. As it always has; hopefully for you, the community and CCP, you will continue to enjoy that aspect. Smile

Slickdrac
Minmatar
M Takumi Research and Production
East Empire Trade Federation
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:07:00 - [6]
 

I don't even care for your stuff, I just want your char, if he's 5 years old as you say. I'll even pay the transfer fee Smile

Harpo
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:08:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Bloody Mistake
Wth?
Sorry ... but you got a message somewhere in there?




Yes.

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:10:00 - [8]
 

so well said... and soo true...

fly safe, hope you will find something out there that actually got what you are looking for (and report back when you do :D )

personally i still have half a year or so subscribed so i will properly stay for that long hoping ccp will manage to change for the better, if not warhammer, aion, evolution and properly others will have come out and i can set my mind at those ^^

cots

Mr Friendly
The Lost and The Damned
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:10:00 - [9]
 

have a day

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:11:00 - [10]
 

Sentry gun tanking is an exploit?

Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:11:00 - [11]
 

ITT: OP got suicide ganked one too many times and uses real-life conditions as a premise for whinage.

Gloria Stitz
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:13:00 - [12]
 

Good Luck

But don't come back to tell us about bugs in RL

Smile

Harpo
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:14:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
ITT: OP got suicide ganked one too many times and uses real-life conditions as a premise for whinage.


Real life conditions were used by GM as a way of explaining why they are still allowed.

Harpo
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:16:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Sentry gun tanking is an exploit?


m0o is one of the reasons why the hit a lot harder... a lot of changes have been made over the years that unless you were there for it before, would never notice it now. Torp. kestrels, double AB on haulers...

Khandara Seraphim
Amarr
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:16:00 - [15]
 

Out of everything wrong with Eve, you sure picked a dumb thing to quit over.

I feel like the current logistics of 0.0 warfare to be a much bigger problem than just dumb suicide gankers...

That said, you are right. The solution that I think is the easiest is just invalidate insurance on ganking ships. While suicide ganks should be allowed to occur, that doesnt mean that they should get the money they spent on the ganking ship back as well as whatever the profit is.

All they have to do is make suicide ganking a risk again instead of a 'break even' at worst and your problem is fixed!

I know its been said before, but it's the best solution and one that could be easily implemented. I'm sorry you felt like this was worth quitting over but to each his own I suppose...

Harpo
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:17:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gloria Stitz
Good Luck

But don't come back to tell us about bugs in RL

Smile


lolz... but then why do we play a game, if not to have fun... some would even say "escape"

You guys are mean Evil or Very Mad

Shakari Sween
Gallente
The Night Crew
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Bloody Mistake
Wth?
Sorry ... but you got a message somewhere in there?




His message is saying that theres a few things that have gotten out of hand in eve and havent been fixed as fast he'd like.

While I agree that there will always be something that needs fixing expecting it to be fixed over night is expecting way to much out of the devs.

I used to play eve in 04/05, left to play wow for the last 2 or 3 years and finaly got bored of how simple a game it really is. Eve beeing my 1st mmo ever I will always love it and have come back due to this. Eve is probably the most complex mmo out on the market atm, I cant think of any that come to as close as it. Not only that but it has the best philosophy and probably the best on going story line.

Most other mmo's i've played get a story line to go with an expansion or a major patch. But the story is only there to make more sense of the new stuff that is added. Eve's biggest asset is its story, which is growing and evolving every day.

Anyway, going back on track Rolling Eyes

The dev's are allready over worked, they do alot more than most people give them credit for. It's not easy creating new content, as well as fixing 'exploits' or un wanted 'game mechanics'. Sure they could go back to what it was like before the changes took place, but then all the work they did would have been pointless and the time wasted. The biggest thing im not extactly a fan of atm is nano'ing. I dont belive that a bs should ever get as fast as some i've seen, expecialy with very little down side. But nano's are actualy a very important mod for other ship class's and you just cant go willy nilly and nerf it without looking at how it will effect the people who are using them properly. It takes alot more to balance both all the ships as well as all the mod's for them out there.

Well, thats enough rambling cause im just talking out of my rear end atm ugh

TDLR = You have to accept that balancing changes can take longer than might be need'd because in the end it is humans who will make the changes, not some machine that spits out ideas and fixes in less than a day. You have to take the good with the bad in all things, not just eve but life as well.

Harpo
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:21:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
Out of everything wrong with Eve, you sure picked a dumb thing to quit over.

I feel like the current logistics of 0.0 warfare to be a much bigger problem than just dumb suicide gankers...

That said, you are right. The solution that I think is the easiest is just invalidate insurance on ganking ships. While suicide ganks should be allowed to occur, that doesnt mean that they should get the money they spent on the ganking ship back as well as whatever the profit is.

All they have to do is make suicide ganking a risk again instead of a 'break even' at worst and your problem is fixed!

I know its been said before, but it's the best solution and one that could be easily implemented. I'm sorry you felt like this was worth quitting over but to each his own I suppose...


I know it's a dumb thing... you'd think losing an alliance, or a station your corp worked for and held for years would have done it.

This was an "it's time" straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not quitting over this one incident, but rather a culmination of things that have lead Eve in a direction that I cannot follow. There are plenty more imbalances, this just happened to be the one that finally did me in.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:21:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Armoured C on 23/05/2008 00:29:56
agreed with a few posts up that you cant just changed mechanics because you want it done,

you have to wait for devs to see what other aspects this will effect

e.g people are moaning about cloaking devices where people are suggestion probes or some sort to find them, if the devs automatically did what the player base suggested stright off the bat then just by having cloaked ship being found you would of automatically destroyed 4 classes of ships just because people asked for it

i know being a veteran for such a long time i thought you would of already come to realise that this stuff can take time and suicide ganking ( a valid point you brought up) although annoying hasnt actually been classed as a exploit ( dont burn me at the stake i dont agree with it either) but because it is actually a game mechanic and with eve's complexity shouldnt you be working out a way to overcome the problem, people managed to do it all the time Rolling Eyes

Tyrantus
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:36:00 - [20]
 

Since the OP wants to use Real Life anologys then here is the best one to apply to Eve: "Life ain't fair dumplin'". Twisted Evil

Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:40:00 - [21]
 

The game mechanics you list as unballanced and want to leave the game for are the reasons that I enjoy this game so much.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:47:00 - [22]
 

that why you cant change stuff as what you hate other people enjoy hence sandbox =)

Shakuul
Caldari
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:56:00 - [23]
 

Players find way to benefit themselves in any game, even in totally PVE games. And even in PVE games, people whine about it. Even if you don't directly damage the other person, the fact that you are better at accomplishing goal XYZ in the game makes them annoyed. I don't see anything wrong with this. Balance is important but there will always be good strategies and poor strategies.

I think the reason that CCP has been slow to respond is there have been so many more people testing and looking out for these imbalances. Game knowledge has gotten much better, guides abound, so its that much easier for people to get the basics down and go onto worrying about how to make billions of isk instead of 5 years ago, where people worried when they would be able to afford a cruiser.

Suicide griefing is IMO stupid. Its extremely misleading to project the image of hisec being safe (many noobs get this idea, I dunno if its in the tutorial) and then they discover it isn't. I don't really see how the game is any better off with suicide ganking. Its really about lazy people who don't want to do real pvp, so instead they prey on the weak in empire. (so much for risk vs. reward...)

I think real life are almost always unproductive and misleading. Eve is a game, it has nothing to do with real life. I don't care what real world economic policy is, or what would happen to suicide bombers in real life, or what would happen if you filled a car with cash and drove through London, insofar as I'm just discussing EVE and how to make it better.

Prefacing your statements with "its just an opinion" does not make criticism of them any less justified. I could make a post saying "EVE is a terrible game WoW is much better, but thats just my opinion so don't criticize it." What do you think would happen?

Although I do happen to agree that sandbox games, like all games, have a shelf life. I would guess that EVE will peak subscribes in the next 2-3 years and then start declining from there. I doubt it will make it past 10 years. There are simply too many other MMOs out there, and some competing pvp oriented MMOs in the works to assure that EVE will stay around (being the size it is) for over 5 years.

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.05.23 00:58:00 - [24]
 

Looks like you've played this game for the wrong reasons for much too long. You should have left years ago.

One less warm hearted carebear in our griefer paradise. 200,000 to go YARRRR!!

Martyr Theos
The NecroMonger Faith
Posted - 2008.05.23 01:10:00 - [25]
 

I am forced to point out that suicide ganking veteran haulers in empire is the only mechanism by which righteous retribution may be poured out upon your head by the forces of NOOB in their Kestrel poverty.Laughing

Harpo
Posted - 2008.05.23 01:41:00 - [26]
 

I will also point out that in no way was I a carebear. lol. The thought.

Regardless... not saying sandbox was wrong, just tired of how limiting it becomes patch after patch. It's a community chasing the next imbalance, that's how it has worked, that's how it will always work.

I flew nano ships, torp kessies, cloak, dampener BSs, etc.

And if any of you have an inkling of reading comprehension, then you will note I stated that I love AND hate this game because of its sandbox nature.

Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
Posted - 2008.05.23 04:07:00 - [27]
 

I find it slightly odd that I'm saying this to a 4 or 5 year plus character but...

Welcome to eve.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2008.05.23 05:26:00 - [28]
 

To the OP,

Mind telling us how you got ganked? If you were activly at the keyboard and flying paranoid I'd love to hear it because it'll mean I'm wrong when I flame the guy I quoted below. If you were afk hauling riches then I suggest that the suicide mechanic worked perfectly.

Originally by: Shakuul
...Suicide griefing is IMO stupid. Its extremely misleading to project the image of hisec being safe (many noobs get this idea, I dunno if its in the tutorial) and then they discover it isn't. I don't really see how the game is any better off with suicide ganking. Its really about lazy people who don't want to do real pvp, so instead they prey on the weak in empire. (so much for risk vs. reward...)



Well since it looks like it's been a while since you read the tutorial let me assure you that High sec is never called "Safe." merely "safer" and in all mentions of Concord there is an asside teling you they may not arrive in time to save you, merely in time to kill the agressor.

Sadly I was with you for most of what you wrote, then there was this paragraph. Apologies to the OP if this seems like a derail but this is a suicide gank post and I just can't seem to resist them.

Originally by: Shakuul
Its really about lazy people who don't want to do real pvp, so instead they prey on the weak in empire. (so much for risk vs. reward...)


This statement represents utter fail. What is "Real" PVP? Is it the market? Some imaginary formal duel between oposing battleship gangs? Repetedly getting assult BS fleets nuked at the gate by 5 titans? A gate camp? Two players of magically the same age sp and training arcs in similar fits of similar sized ships agreeing to meet at some forgotton moon while a friend fraps it? Shooting station services in 0.0?

Seccond, who is the lazy player, the one who orginized a hit, found a target and a group and orchestrated a succesful hit? Or the dumb tard with billions in his cargo hold flying to Jita on autopilot because he can't be botherd to actually play the "booring" parts of the game he's shelling out a montly subscription for?

Finally, Oh the poor noobs... Noobs do not have billions of ISK. They do not have hundreds of millions of ISK. Hence they are not the targets of suicide ganking. Can flipping, sure, war dec abuse by large experienced pvp corps against small noob mining corps, sure, but high sec ganking?! I'm not sayning it dosen't ever happen but it's the afk fat cats that keep getting skinned so leave out the concern for the poor defensless no nothing noobs.

The risk and reward of suicide ganking has NOTHING to do with the insurance payout. That is a set value placed on the ship's minerals. The risk reward comes from a flood of market suicide ships sold at low cost by the insustrialists they are killing and the same industrialists hauling absurd amounts of wealth w/o any precautions what so ever.

Again, Harpo, if you were flying at your keyboard with a scout and someone to help your freighter align and warp quickly, my apologies. I'd love to hear how a gang of gankers killed a wary alert target who was doing everything right because then I could rest knowing something truly was unbalanced in empire.

-Galan

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.23 05:28:00 - [29]
 

Is hitting enter after every sentence now a new meme? Confused

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.05.23 05:58:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Is hitting enter after every sentence now a new meme? Confused


no, not at all.

what would make you think that?

oh and suicide ganking is easy enough to avoid its really a non issue.

unless its random, I'm going to gank someone just to mess with them, instead of for profit.


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