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blankseplocked [Issue] POS: Flogging the Dead Horse Be Recommended for Implementation
 
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Col Callahan
Caldari
Boogie Monsters

Posted - 2008.10.04 05:50:00 - [301]
 

I have for a long time supported this idea and have high hopes for its implementation this X-Mass.

/Signed

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.10.04 23:03:00 - [302]
 

I hope this silliness gets fixed. I'm sick of slow-boating all around the POS, wondering all the while, "Why would anyone in their right mind put these so far apart?"

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.05 02:23:00 - [303]
 

Come on CCP - stop hiding, and come out and tell us when this is going to be done.

And, CSM, seems that LvV is the only one who actually keeps us updated... where the hell are you? Come out and tell us why in the world you have not pushed this with CCP hard enough?

I mean, come on, other issues made, and were heard about and this thing has ben just hanging here.

I do not think this is the best way for you guys to appear in the upcoming elections....

Merawen
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.06 00:48:00 - [304]
 

/sign

Mera

K'Tala
Posted - 2008.10.06 12:51:00 - [305]
 

/signed

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.10.06 14:40:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker
Come on CCP - stop hiding, and come out and tell us when this is going to be done.

And, CSM, seems that LvV is the only one who actually keeps us updated... where the hell are you? Come out and tell us why in the world you have not pushed this with CCP hard enough?

I mean, come on, other issues made, and were heard about and this thing has ben just hanging here.

I do not think this is the best way for you guys to appear in the upcoming elections....


I'll give you an update:

We submitted the issue to CCP.
CCP responded with an answer to the CSM.
We will be discussing that answer with them next weekend 15:00.
The initial answer + additional notes from the live discussion will be released the following week pending CCP approval.

Of course I'm not running again in the next election :)

But seriously its nobodies fault in the current CSM that this has taken a long time. We did get a provisional answer - we didn't like it that much, we're going to be asking questions - you'll get the skinny when we've had the discussion with CCP next weekend.

Sorry to be blunt but there it is.


Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.07 11:46:00 - [307]
 

Edited by: Jinx Barker on 07/10/2008 11:47:56
Originally by: Jade Constantine


I'll give you an update:

We submitted the issue to CCP.
CCP responded with an answer to the CSM.
We will be discussing that answer with them next weekend 15:00.
The initial answer + additional notes from the live discussion will be released the following week pending CCP approval.

Of course I'm not running again in the next election :)

But seriously its nobodies fault in the current CSM that this has taken a long time. We did get a provisional answer - we didn't like it that much, we're going to be asking questions - you'll get the skinny when we've had the discussion with CCP next weekend.

Sorry to be blunt but there it is.




Next Weekend? When? The 11th and 12th? or the 18th and 19th? That way I will be here shortly after to hear my answers. Very Happy

Because, from what you have said, CCP does not appear to be too "enthused" about doing this... unless I have misinterpreted what you have written, which I think I have not. Evil or Very Mad

In any event, whatever the news, keep us updated, we can start a threadnought later - worked for goons didn't it? Cool

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.10.08 11:15:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker

Next Weekend? When? The 11th and 12th? or the 18th and 19th? That way I will be here shortly after to hear my answers. Very Happy

Because, from what you have said, CCP does not appear to be too "enthused" about doing this... unless I have misinterpreted what you have written, which I think I have not. Evil or Very Mad

In any event, whatever the news, keep us updated, we can start a threadnought later - worked for goons didn't it? Cool

On the 11th we will be having the (hopefully) last CSM-CCP meeting for this round. We have issues which weren't discussed inside our window of oppertunity with CCP last weekend, so it will be next weekend.

To be fair against CCP, the last month or two has been the conference season(I for one spent a weekend far away from home, due to my attendance in one of the said conferences). CCP Obviously sent their employees there. This means that people like Noah(CCP Hammer) weren't available during the weekends after the initial response. Thus, it had to be post-poned till these 2 weekends.

Prior to the meeting we had Saturday, we had some very interesting discussions(And lots of absurd jokes) on how to thrust forward CSM and take it to the next level. Dr. EyjoG, Greyscale and Hammer(head) especially seemed very enthusiastic about CSM, which was really nice.

So I would certainly not give up hope. The wait is over very soon hopefully. Sadly, when coordinating these kinds of things, not only with 7+ CSM members, but also a large company like CCP, it's bound to be a slow process. But that's just the way it is.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.11 21:27:00 - [309]
 

I am not sure about anyone else but I am excited... within the next 24-48 hours we will finally hear what CCP and CSM talked about in regards to this ongoing issue - more than two years spent posting about it, something finally will get done!

Lets hope.

Kransthow
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.12 00:27:00 - [310]
 

SUPPORT FOR A POS THAT ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE A SPACE STATION

Amandrace
Minmatar
DSC inc

Posted - 2008.10.12 21:07:00 - [311]
 

Signed

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.10.12 21:58:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker
I am not sure about anyone else but I am excited... within the next 24-48 hours we will finally hear what CCP and CSM talked about in regards to this ongoing issue - more than two years spent posting about it, something finally will get done!

Lets hope.

Don't hold your breath.

The minutes has to go trough CCP for approval.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.13 01:23:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jinx Barker
I am not sure about anyone else but I am excited... within the next 24-48 hours we will finally hear what CCP and CSM talked about in regards to this ongoing issue - more than two years spent posting about it, something finally will get done!

Lets hope.

Don't hold your breath.

The minutes has to go trough CCP for approval.


he he he... I figured, at least answer me this: Was the "DEAD HORSE" discussed? If it was discussed, we will hear, at some point, what the deal is. That is all I want to know at this moment.

K'Talas Marta
Posted - 2008.10.13 03:37:00 - [314]
 

I can't wait for a response to this either, hope its good news, would hate to see we lobbied for this for 2 years just to see it all go down the drain.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.10.13 06:30:00 - [315]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker


he he he... I figured, at least answer me this: Was the "DEAD HORSE" discussed? If it was discussed, we will hear, at some point, what the deal is. That is all I want to know at this moment.

It wasn't discussed directly due to CCP's initial response. However, it WAS refered to quite a few times in discussion about other mechanics.

Jaala Creed
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe

Posted - 2008.10.13 10:52:00 - [316]
 

This is a really good idea and really something that "feels" like Eve. :)

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.10.13 11:52:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jinx Barker

Next Weekend? When? The 11th and 12th? or the 18th and 19th? That way I will be here shortly after to hear my answers. Very Happy

Because, from what you have said, CCP does not appear to be too "enthused" about doing this... unless I have misinterpreted what you have written, which I think I have not. Evil or Very Mad

In any event, whatever the news, keep us updated, we can start a threadnought later - worked for goons didn't it? Cool

On the 11th we will be having the (hopefully) last CSM-CCP meeting for this round. We have issues which weren't discussed inside our window of oppertunity with CCP last weekend, so it will be next weekend.

To be fair against CCP, the last month or two has been the conference season(I for one spent a weekend far away from home, due to my attendance in one of the said conferences). CCP Obviously sent their employees there. This means that people like Noah(CCP Hammer) weren't available during the weekends after the initial response. Thus, it had to be post-poned till these 2 weekends.

Prior to the meeting we had Saturday, we had some very interesting discussions(And lots of absurd jokes) on how to thrust forward CSM and take it to the next level. Dr. EyjoG, Greyscale and Hammer(head) especially seemed very enthusiastic about CSM, which was really nice.

So I would certainly not give up hope. The wait is over very soon hopefully. Sadly, when coordinating these kinds of things, not only with 7+ CSM members, but also a large company like CCP, it's bound to be a slow process. But that's just the way it is.


well looking at CCPs obsession with Ambulation, which is a completely unneeded feature from game perspetive and totaly ignoring this issue for well over a year, I am not very optimistic.

seems to me that this horse will wither to dust before CCP even acknowledges the idea ...

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.13 20:33:00 - [318]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jinx Barker


he he he... I figured, at least answer me this: Was the "DEAD HORSE" discussed? If it was discussed, we will hear, at some point, what the deal is. That is all I want to know at this moment.

It wasn't discussed directly due to CCP's initial response. However, it WAS refered to quite a few times in discussion about other mechanics.




What? You kidding me? Why were we not told the CCP response? What happened, are we getting screwed again by CCP?
Why did not CSM notify us as to the content of CCP's response? Isn't CSM duty to the players of this game, and oversight the CCP's actions and to bring suggestions?

You need to lay it all out for us, there has been to many half-words, and double takes with regards to POS/Dead Horse/CCP/CSM - this is the only issue I have seen thus far THOROUGHLY ignored or AVOIDED BY CCP.

K'Talas Marta
Posted - 2008.10.13 22:23:00 - [319]
 

No kidding, that's a crock of crap. Wasn't directly discussed, that's useful, and what pray tell was this referred to from, new sov system? research? that's a crap answer. CCP is going to have a lot of mad POS's runners if this doesn't go through, or they don't explain why it's not going to happen, assuming its not.

Mulco
Dark Star Mining and Industry inc.
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:11:00 - [320]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jinx Barker


he he he... I figured, at least answer me this: Was the "DEAD HORSE" discussed? If it was discussed, we will hear, at some point, what the deal is. That is all I want to know at this moment.

It wasn't discussed directly due to CCP's initial response. However, it WAS refered to quite a few times in discussion about other mechanics.



This. Its crap like this that is breaking the bubble known as player democracy.
And CCP, i know that the CSM where never supposed to have any power over game design and it's purpose are only to present the opinions of the player base.
But what happened to the open dialog that you advertised as ground breaking steps towards an virtual democracy. All i see is a CSM that has it's hands tied behind its back, being forced to refer to the dead horse in related discussions as it apparently was not allowed to be discused directly.

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.10.14 18:25:00 - [321]
 

Originally by: Mulco
This. Its crap like this that is breaking the bubble known as player democracy.

And CCP, i know that the CSM where never supposed to have any power over game design and it's purpose are only to present the opinions of the player base.
But what happened to the open dialog that you advertised as ground breaking steps towards an virtual democracy. All i see is a CSM that has it's hands tied behind its back, being forced to refer to the dead horse in related discussions as it apparently was not allowed to be discused directly.


You mis-understand. It's simply too-hard-basket technically for CCP to re-write and re-generate art work to make it happen.

So we refered to it in other proposals such as small anchorable structures - where there is no existing art-work, so that at least removes one barrier.


LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.10.15 08:11:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker

What? You kidding me? Why were we not told the CCP response? What happened, are we getting screwed again by CCP?
Why did not CSM notify us as to the content of CCP's response? Isn't CSM duty to the players of this game, and oversight the CCP's actions and to bring suggestions?

You need to lay it all out for us, there has been to many half-words, and double takes with regards to POS/Dead Horse/CCP/CSM - this is the only issue I have seen thus far THOROUGHLY ignored or AVOIDED BY CCP.

You are completely overreacting here.

Look, the minutes will eventually be out(I have no idea when they will, but I'm sure they are being worked on). Please wait for those, as I hate to actually disclose things before they are actually official. I don't want to upset anybody.

As it has been stated tons of times before, the initial response from CCP plus whatever extra there is to add from our meetings, will be posted together in the official minutes.

Also, it's baseless claims that it has been ignored and avoided by CCP. CCP gave us an answer, and there's nothing to discuss.

However, as Serenity said, CCP was interested in the actual suggestion and there was talk about the actual thing in regards to small anchorable structures. So we might see it being put in there.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.10.15 08:13:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: Mulco

But what happened to the open dialog that you advertised as ground breaking steps towards an virtual democracy. All i see is a CSM that has it's hands tied behind its back, being forced to refer to the dead horse in related discussions as it apparently was not allowed to be discused directly.

There was open dialogue.

We were fully allowed to discuss it directly. But obviously there was no reason for it, due to the actual response. CCP is well aware that this is on the top of our wishlist, but we can't tie CCP's hands behind it's back and force them to do it either.

I'm sorry we couldn't do more than this. Sadly, I think it's a matter of bad expectations.

Odetta Harpy
Posted - 2008.10.15 10:01:00 - [324]
 

Didnt notice the pretty pictures, all i have to say is, NICE.

Privacy Policy
Posted - 2008.10.15 11:37:00 - [325]
 

Implement ASAP!!!

I went on the test server a while back just to learn how to set up a POS. What a NIGHTMARE!!!

A POS should look similar to a station, not like a bunch of floating space debris!!

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.17 00:37:00 - [326]
 

Edited by: Jinx Barker on 17/10/2008 00:42:21
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Also, it's baseless claims that it has been ignored and avoided by CCP. CCP gave us an answer, and there's nothing to discuss.


I am sorry, you mean just because the guys who made you sign NDA and paid for the trip to Iceland said "no" or something along those lines, there is NOTHING TO DISCUSS? I think something lost in translation here man, because there is plenty to discuss! That is the whole point of CSM to bring PRESSURE ON CCP ON BEHALF OF THE COMMUNITY - no?

Not walk away with the tail between one's legs.

Originally by: LaVista Vista

There was open dialogue.

We were fully allowed to discuss it directly. But obviously there was no reason for it, due to the actual response. CCP is well aware that this is on the top of our wishlist, but we can't tie CCP's hands behind it's back and force them to do it either.

I'm sorry we couldn't do more than this. Sadly, I think it's a matter of bad expectations.


You see what I have highlighted there? Well, the response has been received month or more ago, the discussion took place, and yet, you guys chose not to publish it why?

Furthermore, there has been way too much "half-talk" from CSM about it, you clearly guys have bad news to give to EVE community from CCP, and yet, there was clear avoidance, or appearance of avoidance on CSM and CCP's part when it comes to this issue.

What I predict is that CCP simply gave you guys the same brush off as they did us a year ago, with "it is too much trouble to implement" and yet we have really proven them wrong in the original thread, and since then they simply ignored it.

In my opinion this was and is the issue that 99% of EVE community can get behind, and yet, we have "musical instruments" - does this not make you shudder? Does this not make you appalled? Does this not make you angry?

Basically what I have gathered from S.S and your responses is this: You spoke with CCP and CCP told you to screw off. And you guys were unable to come here and tell us outright so we can follow up with additional pressure on CCP.

For the first time in five years I am really upset at CCP, at their covert attempts at manipulation of their mistakes, and at continual subversion that they have exercised on many occasions. It is definitely not the same company that made EVE Online in 2003, and are not the same people.

By not making even an effort to come out and talk to the community regarding the "dead horse" issue, and by tying your CSM hands when it come to clear, concise, and truthful account about your communications with CCP it proves to me that pretty much all is lost.



LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.10.17 09:37:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker

You see what I have highlighted there? Well, the response has been received month or more ago, the discussion took place, and yet, you guys chose not to publish it why?



Because we had to have the CCP-CSM discussions first, then create the minutes, have them approved by CCP and then have the community team post them. Anything else would be a breach of the NDA. We didn't chose not to publish it, that's stupid to say.

You are basically telling me that the CSM should not care about the NDA and ruin the integrity that CSM has, because you want feedback from CCP.

I'm sorry, but you are *not* being reasonable.

Quote:
In my opinion this was and is the issue that 99% of EVE community can get behind, and yet, we have "musical instruments" - does this not make you shudder? Does this not make you appalled? Does this not make you angry?

Don't even get me started on the musical instruments in ambulation. Mad

Seriously, I wish that they could just implement this. But hey, I'm not Hilmar.

But here's the deal:

Wait till the minutes are out like everybody else who raised an issue or had interest in some of them. The fact that you kept posting here and demanding an update gave you a bit, congratz. But you STILL have to wait for the minutes. Nobody on the CSM is going to break their NDA just because you want an update.

But thanks for proving to me that it was wrong of me to even give you an update on what was going on. I don't think that going to happen in the future like this, when people aren't being perfectly reasonable.

But let me once again point out I would LOVE to see this in game. And I'm pretty sure we will some day.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.17 11:30:00 - [328]
 

Edited by: Jinx Barker on 17/10/2008 11:41:41
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Wait till the minutes are out like everybody else who raised an issue or had interest in some of them. The fact that you kept posting here and demanding an update gave you a bit, congratz. But you STILL have to wait for the minutes. Nobody on the CSM is going to break their NDA just because you want an update.

But thanks for proving to me that it was wrong of me to even give you an update on what was going on. I don't think that going to happen in the future like this, when people aren't being perfectly reasonable.

But let me once again point out I would LOVE to see this in game. And I'm pretty sure we will some day.


1) You do not see me being suspicious about the whole affair, and demanding answers as reasonable, especially since the "ball was dropped" once before, for whatever reason, and issue ignored, or sent too late or what not?

2) LaVista, you did not "give me an update" specifically, you did post for everyone that something has been received, and we should wait. If you read further, S.S. actually said in so many words that it was "useless since CCP gave definitive answer" - from which anyone with modicum if intelligence can glean where it leads, and what is going on. Then you came in and pretty much confirmed that "yea we could talk about i, but why, since CCP already told us .... "

The only reason I received replies from you guys is because I am a pushy bastard, and I pretty much called on CSM and CCP to provide answers continuously, for years with CCP, and for months with CSM, until someone said, lets shut him up, and throw him a bone. Just because I get a bone, does not make me happy, I want the whole steak, or in this case information, every bit of it.

No one wants to break the NDA, it is the question of why it has taken so bloody long in the first place to go to CCP, we know, we know, clerical error, and then why has it taken months to actually get any news at all... when, bring it up again, silly ****... gets pushed through?! The whole thing with the "dead horse," CCP, CSM and the way this been handled is purely Kafkaesque manner.

Anyway, as I said before, you did not respond to me, you responded to all of us, and do not feel bad for a second that when you did the right thing, you might have to feel slightly bad about it later - that is what happens, and what you did unlike so many other CSM was the right thing, even if I am shouting at you, and making you feel uncomfortable - I am shouting at CSM and CCP, it just so happens you are the guy who does the right thing and talks to the people, so you get the bayonet, you still get my vote later on kiddo.

Edit: Think of me as The Guardian or NY Times when it comes to the "Dead Horse" issue, only with spelling errors. They are pushy, and obnoxious, but they never blame anyone for doing the right thing, even if they would critizise them for not doing more.

Hell I would run for CSM myself, and give CCP run for their money, but I do not want to sign the NDA, or make my name public for the video game.






Zathrus
Posted - 2008.10.17 13:22:00 - [329]
 

Please Fix my POS

It is a P O S Shocked

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2008.10.27 16:24:00 - [330]
 

Yeah, it sucks having to do an overhaul, but the current POS setup is just plain ugly, laggy, and a complicated mess. Fire-bomb it and start over.


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