open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked Cyno Jammers & Jump Bridges
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8

Author Topic

Mike Yass
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.22 23:22:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/05/2008 21:59:15

I Disagree. The Cynojammer is not supposed to facilitate sub capitals, it was to remove the old trench warfare of POS battles where people would reinforce your system with dreads while you sleep then dock up 50 jumps away in perfect safety when you got a gang going. It made a mockery of Dreadnaughts since they could be used risk free.

Now with a Cynojammer which is easaly disabled in 5-10 mins, a attacker has to keep his capitals in system, therefore seiges of a system end in a couple of days insted of lasting months of Alarm Clock ops. This is because as soon as the attacker leaves the system, he is going to have a uphill struggle to incap the jammer for a 2nd time while pos's are being repaired.

Since nobody in eve has yet camped a single Jammer 24/7 365 days a year, anyone fleet with a good tactic can find a 10 minute window to incap the cynojammer and then cyno their capitals in.

The whole point of the jammer is to force capitals to stay in system and hence, encorage capital fights insted of risk free Dreadnaught usage as well as reduce month long timezone wars where people only win because someone messes up stront timer on a pos..


That's a great explanation of what happened, but it is exactly counter to what CCP has stated they wanted. CCP wanted to create more objectives for small gangs http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=469, but instead they've pushed the game towards massive capital battles, something we all know the game infrastructure can't handle. Even more importantly, a lot of players think that the massive laggy blobs needed to siege the systems is not fun, and the endless sitting in a POS and camping a gate to hold the sieged system is not fun.

The most fun thing to most players in EVE is roaming gangs, and it seemed that the goal of cynojammers was to give roaming gangs a chance to directly matter in sovereignty warfare - rather to simply thin the enemy herd and prevent them from making money. By your own admission, the move has been towards sieging one system with a large blob for two days, 24/7.

We aren't complaining because we lost, we're complaining because it's not fun, and I play videogames to have fun, and that's why we want roaming gangs (fun) to matter in sovereignty warfare. If you think camping one system for two days is fun, I'd be willing to bet you're a minority.

You also draw a false dichotomy between the old "siege when you please" system to the "camp for two days" system. We aren't forced to choose between the two, we're asking CCP to come up with a new idea.

Moreover, the move towards the "SIEGE THE SYSTEM FOR TWO DAYS" eliminates the ability for smaller alliances to compete, as it is unreasonable to expect a group of 500 players to have 100 people online 24 hours a day for two days so they can keep the system. I think it's completely ridiculous that goonswarm can move our base of operations to Geminate and have smaller alliances like Stain Empire and others unable to make significant progress in our regions to the south.

Jade Constantine has made his/her/it's platform so that he/she/it could convince the masses that us 0.0 alliances are out to prevent them from competing and other nonsense, and pointed to sovereignty warfare demanding a change, and people responded with their votes. It's just a shame that Jade has terrible ideas that he/she/it can't voice in under 10 pages.

I guess my question to you is: Do you think the current system of sovereignty warfare is fun? Do you think it allows small alliances to compete? Do you think it needs to be changed?

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 23:34:00 - [122]
 

As at least two CSMs have indicated support for the idea itt we probably won't need the 11000 votes to force it anyway, but yeah. One sided cyno-jammers whch force the attacker to fight carrier fleets and doomsdays with subcaps , unless and until they can blob up 100+ battleships to knock down a 15 million hit point module mounted at a hostile POS is a really dumb idea.

Voted 1 upwardly pointing thumb.

Farrqua
Minmatar
In Igne Morim

Posted - 2008.05.23 01:45:00 - [123]
 


Ceros X
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.23 02:47:00 - [124]
 

i support this issue

Breha Organa
Posted - 2008.05.23 03:01:00 - [125]
 

I've read the arguments ... reluctantly, I have to support this as a flaw in the intended purpose of cyno jammers.

Kovid
Applied Agoraphobia
Posted - 2008.05.23 03:21:00 - [126]
 

I don't know why it has gone this long as it is.

Wolf Soldier
Minmatar
Griefer-B-Gone
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.05.23 04:07:00 - [127]
 

YARRRR!!

Sworn Absent
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.23 04:14:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Sworn Absent on 23/05/2008 04:14:39
If there is one thing that has killed the fun of 0.0 warfare, it is the introduction of cyno-jammers.

Selim Delavar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.23 04:39:00 - [129]
 

Supporting this.

Jasharin
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.23 04:54:00 - [130]
 

i have never been able to trust a single word uttered by waterfowl democracy

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.05.23 06:12:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron

I Disagree. The Cynojammer is not supposed to facilitate sub capitals, it was to remove the old trench warfare of POS battles where people would reinforce your system with dreads while you sleep then dock up 50 jumps away in perfect safety when you got a gang going. It made a mockery of Dreadnaughts since they could be used risk free.

Now with a Cynojammer which is easaly disabled in 5-10 mins, a attacker has to keep his capitals in system, therefore seiges of a system end in a couple of days insted of lasting months of Alarm Clock ops. This is because as soon as the attacker leaves the system, he is going to have a uphill struggle to incap the jammer for a 2nd time while pos's are being repaired.

Since nobody in eve has yet camped a single Jammer 24/7 365 days a year, anyone fleet with a good tactic can find a 10 minute window to incap the cynojammer and then cyno their capitals in.

The whole point of the jammer is to force capitals to stay in system and hence, encorage capital fights insted of risk free Dreadnaught usage as well as reduce month long timezone wars where people only win because someone messes up stront timer on a pos..


You make some good points, Lord WarATron. I'll give this a shot. What is the point of "keeping capitals in system" Cap fleets I've seen usually stay in one system until it is conquered, caps are logged out in system because they are not needed until a POS comes out of reinforced. Does it matter that the caps log off in that system or fly back to a friendly system and log off there? Not really, what matters far more is the reinforced timer, that's the key.

I agree that Cynojammers do a good job so that the enemy can't blob dreads while you are sleeping and say "Hello, all of your POSs are in reinforced, have a nice day" ala the MC campaign. But I think the main issue is that the defender can move around a large capital fleet in all of their station systems with moderate ease while the attackers are forced to use sub-capital ships. Which was fine until capital/supercapital fleets got very large which limits the attackers choices considerably. With the insane hit points that faction POS/cynojammers/jump bridges/station services/capital fleets have, people need to bring overwhelming numbers which kills the hardware which kills the game :(

RubberDuckey
Viziam

Posted - 2008.05.23 06:33:00 - [132]
 

Support

thetwilitehour
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.23 07:08:00 - [133]
 

n/t

Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong

Posted - 2008.05.23 07:16:00 - [134]
 


Zakzhar
The Greater Goon
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.23 07:32:00 - [135]
 

Supportin' dis

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2008.05.23 09:32:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Lord WarATron

I Disagree. The Cynojammer is not supposed to facilitate sub capitals, it was to remove the old trench warfare of POS battles where people would reinforce your system with dreads while you sleep then dock up 50 jumps away in perfect safety when you got a gang going. It made a mockery of Dreadnaughts since they could be used risk free.

Now with a Cynojammer which is easaly disabled in 5-10 mins, a attacker has to keep his capitals in system, therefore seiges of a system end in a couple of days insted of lasting months of Alarm Clock ops. This is because as soon as the attacker leaves the system, he is going to have a uphill struggle to incap the jammer for a 2nd time while pos's are being repaired.

Since nobody in eve has yet camped a single Jammer 24/7 365 days a year, anyone fleet with a good tactic can find a 10 minute window to incap the cynojammer and then cyno their capitals in.

The whole point of the jammer is to force capitals to stay in system and hence, encorage capital fights insted of risk free Dreadnaught usage as well as reduce month long timezone wars where people only win because someone messes up stront timer on a pos..


You make some good points, Lord WarATron. I'll give this a shot. What is the point of "keeping capitals in system" Cap fleets I've seen usually stay in one system until it is conquered, caps are logged out in system because they are not needed until a POS comes out of reinforced. Does it matter that the caps log off in that system or fly back to a friendly system and log off there? Not really, what matters far more is the reinforced timer, that's the key.



The key point is that in the past, people would reinforce whole regions of POS hoping to catch a incorrectly timed one then run away. The defenders would repair in their prime. This made capital fights a joke since there was nothing forcing people to use capitals against each other and forced weeks of alarm clock ops to take over systems that people would defend. And if the Smaller alliace defended one system in a alarm clock op, the attackers would attack another system since there was nothing forcing them to commit capitals.

This is why people called for a cynojammer. A Module that would force the attacker to commit capitals insted of playing risk free hopscotch with POS wars.

Now with Cynojammers, the attackers cannot cyno 50jumps away and dock up safely, they have to stay in system and lock it down for a couple of days otherwise the defenders will repair the jammer and get back in again. If the Defenders want to use caps/supercaps to defend their pos, then the agressors will have no choice but to use capitals for epic capital fights or risk doomsday.

This is good for the smaller alliances since they can take over systems in a couple of days insted of months of POS alarm clock wars which only larger alliances are good at doing. Problem has never been Cynojammers, its been people who used the old tactic of risk free dreadnaughts who are unhappy that they have to risk their capitals now. After all, its a seige and ships will be lost on both sides. It is not some lvl4 where you can rambo without loss.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2008.05.23 09:45:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Lord WarATron on 23/05/2008 09:54:36
Oh and in addition to what I have said, in reply to the OP, capitals should use bridge into cynojammer systems for 3 reasons.

1. Smaller alliance's trying to move Rorqurels etc around. It has to use bridges since smaller alliances do not have the flexibility of dozens of stations & systems.

2. Smaller alliance's can defend if a larger alliance sends 400 t1 crap into the system. The smaller alliance can then move capitals in to counter the larger numbers.

3. A Larger allaince can use the "Risk free" dread tactic discusssed in the post above to attack 2-3 smaller alliance stations at once. The defenders can only defend 1 system and without the bridge, the attackers can disable the jammer in the other stations again. So for smaller alliances to force larger alliances to risk capitals, they need the bridge to move around.

The Bridge ability allows the Smaller alliance to organise itself vs a larger alliance. No bridge ability means that larger alliances get a easier time squashing smaller alliances.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.23 09:47:00 - [138]
 

Interesting ideas in here, indeed.

I will vote for it to be put on the agenda. Cool

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.23 12:59:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Yorda on 23/05/2008 18:05:31
Originally by: Lord WarATron
The key point is that in the past, people would reinforce whole regions of POS hoping to catch a incorrectly timed one then run away. The defenders would repair in their prime. This made capital fights a joke since there was nothing forcing people to use capitals against each other and forced weeks of alarm clock ops to take over systems that people would defend. And if the Smaller alliace defended one system in a alarm clock op, the attackers would attack another system since there was nothing forcing them to commit capitals.

This is why people called for a cynojammer. A Module that would force the attacker to commit capitals insted of playing risk free hopscotch with POS wars.

Now with Cynojammers, the attackers cannot cyno 50jumps away and dock up safely, they have to stay in system and lock it down for a couple of days otherwise the defenders will repair the jammer and get back in again. If the Defenders want to use caps/supercaps to defend their pos, then the agressors will have no choice but to use capitals for epic capital fights or risk doomsday.

This is good for the smaller alliances since they can take over systems in a couple of days insted of months of POS alarm clock wars which only larger alliances are good at doing. Problem has never been Cynojammers, its been people who used the old tactic of risk free dreadnaughts who are unhappy that they have to risk their capitals now. After all, its a seige and ships will be lost on both sides. It is not some lvl4 where you can rambo without loss.


As I said in the other thread where you posted this analogy, there is absolutely nothing that cynojammers do to stop people from alarmclocking ops and continue doing this. Just because they have to stay in system doesn't mean they cant log out and it doesn't mean they could just cyno out and take down the jammer at a later time. Cynojammers dont force people to commit to capital ships at all, if you want to defend or kill a pos you have to fight when it comes out of reinforced. Cynojammer or not if there's caps to defend it and caps to attack it they'll be a cap fight.

tl;dr you're ******ed stop posting.

Marius Duvall
Amarr
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.23 14:16:00 - [140]
 

Forsoothly,

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.23 14:23:00 - [141]
 

I support this issue being discussed.

Personally, I am beginning to think there needs to be a limit on the number of systems in a given constellation that can be cyno-jammed and in which jump-bridges can be deployed anyway. At the moment there is no element of strategic thinking for the defender. It is simply a non-choice and nearly every system under their control has a cyno-jammer and a jump bridge placed in it.

Limits on placement of cyno jammers and jump bridges per constellation would make people think carefully about which systems they really want to protect from capital incursions and which systems they want to make their jump-highway stops.

Cosmo

Zartek Mattlov
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.23 15:39:00 - [142]
 

/signed

Mr Stark
Posted - 2008.05.23 15:42:00 - [143]
 

supported

Akelorian
Caldari
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.05.23 16:02:00 - [144]
 

I disagree with the op, and the whole slew of goon alts on this matter. Like war stated, without cynojammers fights would be weeks of alarm clock ops, another useless topic like the multiple titans in system one.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.23 16:38:00 - [145]
 

I agree with the op.

A defender still has the advantage of knowing exactly when they are going to take down the jammer to bring in capitals, and if for some reason capitals are all jumped in at the same time from both sides you can probably expect some more capital fights.

Danyael Tyren
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.23 17:34:00 - [146]
 

Postin' mah support

christmascaveman
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.23 18:03:00 - [147]
 

I support this topic.

Shiv Ertai
Posted - 2008.05.23 18:46:00 - [148]
 

/signed

Darpz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.23 19:01:00 - [149]
 

so very signed. if you want to cyno jam a system you should not be able to easily bring caps into said system.

SimpleScout
Gallente
Coalition Of Poitot Mission Runners

Posted - 2008.05.23 19:11:00 - [150]
 

agreed


Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only