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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.08.14 11:37:00 - [121]
 

They're not talking about abandoned belt wreck salvaging, but of mission-invasion-salvaging Twisted Evil
And it's "dubious morality", not "imoral"/"evil"/whatever Wink

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.08.14 11:42:00 - [122]
 

This article is now on the Wiki, I've heavily edited it though. More work is required to get it just right, but there it is.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.08.14 12:05:00 - [123]
 

Added plaintext link in OP Wink

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.08.18 19:21:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Akita T
They're not talking about abandoned belt wreck salvaging, but of mission-invasion-salvaging Twisted Evil
And it's "dubious morality", not "imoral"/"evil"/whatever Wink



Its only Immoral when the other guy does it to you first or results in a price increase in petrochemicals thats not explainable by normal supply and demand. . .

Mr Reason
Posted - 2009.08.18 19:38:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
Originally by: Akita T
They're not talking about abandoned belt wreck salvaging, but of mission-invasion-salvaging Twisted Evil
And it's "dubious morality", not "imoral"/"evil"/whatever Wink



Its only Immoral when the other guy does it to you first or results in a price increase in petrochemicals thats not explainable by normal supply and demand. . .


huh?

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.08.19 00:01:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Mr Reason
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Originally by: Akita T
They're not talking about abandoned belt wreck salvaging, but of mission-invasion-salvaging Twisted Evil
And it's "dubious morality", not "imoral"/"evil"/whatever Wink



Its only Immoral when the other guy does it to you first or results in a price increase in petrochemicals thats not explainable by normal supply and demand. . .


huh?
The second part was a recent Howard Sterns joke about the recent uproar over Oil comdity traders

dAhAmbUrglA
Paxton Industries
Posted - 2009.09.09 08:45:00 - [127]
 

The best way to make isk as a noob, I think anyways, is to get into one of the lowsec systems with a DED 2 plex in it (preferably with a few other lowsec 2/10 plexes nearby) and every 2 hours hop on and do the plex for 10mins in, say, a range rifter. Difficulty: Low, Danger: I've never even seen anyone in these, Payout: About 1/2 of the time I do the angel-creo ones, I get either a deadspace MWD or shield booster, worth a very large amount of money for a noob. These things are so easy to do! Also I found a dramiel BPC once and that was a very good day :p

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.11.01 14:13:00 - [128]
 

Two month rule ! Twisted Evil
So... anybody else have anything to add ?

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.11.01 15:16:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Two month rule ! Twisted Evil
So... anybody else have anything to add ?



Plex.

Dacryphile
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:36:00 - [130]
 

Akita, you should link this thread about ninja salvaging.

Ninjaing is probably one of the most profitable things a true newb can partake in. While it isn't the most profitable activity in eve, it is some thing a newb can get into relatively quickly and make decent isk while they skill up for other things.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.11.02 08:56:00 - [131]
 

Linked "inline" in post #6 ("ninja salvaging" is now a direct link to that thread).
Just hope the newbies know you can actually click orange stuff Wink

LHA1 Tarawa
Posted - 2009.11.02 21:44:00 - [132]
 

Ninja Salvagers = thieving brass tards....

Go make your on wrecks and leave mine alone!

Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
Posted - 2009.11.02 22:36:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: LHA1 Tarawa
Ninja Salvagers = thieving brass tards....

Go make your on wrecks and leave mine alone!


Please keep this out of newbie Q&A. This is the section for discussion of new player issues, not a soapbox to preach your views, if you want to rant about salvage mechanics there are plenty of threads in GD to get your fill.

Nylan Faust
Posted - 2009.11.14 11:04:00 - [134]
 

In regards to this, what sort of money could be made scanning down a missioner, and stealing his mission objective item(if there is one) and trying to ransom it back to him? Of course if there isnt an item, you just blow up ships, get bounties, and BM for a ninja salvage. But what would be a fair price for a mission objective item, say, level 4?

JonnyRandom
Posted - 2009.11.14 16:29:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Nylan Faust
In regards to this, what sort of money could be made scanning down a missioner, and stealing his mission objective item(if there is one) and trying to ransom it back to him? Of course if there isnt an item, you just blow up ships, get bounties, and BM for a ninja salvage. But what would be a fair price for a mission objective item, say, level 4?


What's stopping him from using an alt to blow you up for a **** move like that? Ninja salvage at your own risk. It's not as profitable as people make it out to be when you take into account that you stand to lose your rigged salvager if you manage to **** off the wrong mission runner.

Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2009.11.15 14:53:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Solomar Espersei on 15/11/2009 14:53:56
Enough disinformation. New player here and started ninja salvaging as soon as I was skilled enough to do so. I made so much more ISK compared to Lv 1 mission running that I'm amazed that anyone actually does them. The suggestion that I'm going to lose money on my rigged salvager because some mission runner is going to pop me is ridiculous. So far it's been the opposite, the mission runner gets butt hurt and CONCORDs himself resulting in 25 mil or more in free loot. I buy my salvage ships for next to nothing, have a BP for what few rigs I've needed, and should the NPCs pop me in a hot mission, I'm back in business in about 5 minutes.

New players, this is an excellent guide, with the exception that the OP and others have never had the experience of being brand new to EVE and going into salvaging as a profession. I have. It is extremely profitable for a new player. Anyone saying otherwise is either grinding an axe or is woefully uniformed.

Anghus McQuade
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.15 17:51:00 - [137]
 

I don't get this whole ninja salvaging deal.

Go run missions with a boat with a salvager on it. Done deal. You salvage and get the rewards for the mission. So basically you do two things in one go: you run missions, and you salvage (without the ninja). Less risk, more cash.

This guide, I think, is rubbish and makes no sense. Why do you guys HAVE to do something that ****es off others? Especially when there is no need whatsoever to do so.

You just go ahead and **** others off, I'll just salvage my own mission kills and even get more cash in the end per hour.

Maybe I'm daft, but I know for sure I make more cash.

JonnyRandom
Posted - 2009.11.15 19:05:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Solomar Espersei
Edited by: Solomar Espersei on 15/11/2009 14:53:56
Enough disinformation. New player here and started ninja salvaging as soon as I was skilled enough to do so. I made so much more ISK compared to Lv 1 mission running that I'm amazed that anyone actually does them. The suggestion that I'm going to lose money on my rigged salvager because some mission runner is going to pop me is ridiculous. So far it's been the opposite, the mission runner gets butt hurt and CONCORDs himself resulting in 25 mil or more in free loot. I buy my salvage ships for next to nothing, have a BP for what few rigs I've needed, and should the NPCs pop me in a hot mission, I'm back in business in about 5 minutes.


It is because you are a new player that you do not really understand how an alt can blow up your salvage boat before CONCORD arrives. I can equip a gank ship for that specific reason for under 1mill ISK. How much does your salavge boat cost? If I blow you up and then CONCORD blows up my alt, who is going to lose more money on it? I've had a new player keep returning to my missions and keep getting blown up until he started crying and calling hacks and bans and the whole works. Is that something you want a new player to experience? I am just warning them. Many mission runners will not stand for their a-hole behaviour.


Quote:
New players, this is an excellent guide, with the exception that the OP and others have never had the experience of being brand new to EVE and going into salvaging as a profession. I have. It is extremely profitable for a new player. Anyone saying otherwise is either grinding an axe or is woefully uniformed.


Never had the expereience of being brand new to eve? Are you daft, man? It is precisely because older players had to experience what is was like to just start out in eve that we are so ticked off by how easy it is now. Nobody had ever given us a free ride at the expense of others. If we stole something belonging to someone else, we were shot! This is why, in spite, so many mission runners have alts in nearby stations with gankboats waiting for over-eager and unprepared newbies to pop up in their missions.

Of course, many more are using the same alts to simply salvage as they go through the mission with their main. I cannot do that. I only have one computer, and for whatever reason I cannot play the game in windowed mode.

I gave a warning to new players about the risks involved, but you seem to have misunderstood it and expressed your opinion and somewhat negative view about the players that came before you. In fact, you are the one providing misinformation. I've cleared up my warning now, so let's leave it at that. We don't want to derail this thread and end up forcing a pruning, do we? Don't want to give new players ideas without also explaining all the risks involved in them.



Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2009.11.15 22:17:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Solomar Espersei on 15/11/2009 22:18:29
Quote:
I don't get this whole ninja salvaging deal.

Go run missions with a boat with a salvager on it. Done deal. You salvage and get the rewards for the mission. So basically you do two things in one go: you run missions, and you salvage (without the ninja). Less risk, more cash.

This guide, I think, is rubbish and makes no sense. Why do you guys HAVE to do something that ****es off others? Especially when there is no need whatsoever to do so.

I can't be bothered to play this game worried about the few odd people I tick off. I'm sure the traders I compete with get miffed when I happen to bump my price up by a couple of pennies and score some sweet deals. Professional salvaging is a bona fide mini profession as CCP has made clear on countless occasions.

It may seem daft to you, but there are players who don't feel the need to waste their time training up all those Mission Running skills when we'd rather be doing something else that we find more enjoyable. Look, we realize how much money you can make running your Lv 4 missions, but don't act like anyone can just go grab a CNR and start running those missions without any effort at all. You couldn't pay me 100 mil ISK and get me to grind through those crappy Lv 1 missions in order to work my way up to the real money. Sorry, there are just too many other things (and not just salvaging) that I'd rather do.

Quote:
It is because you are a new player that you do not really understand how an alt can blow up your salvage boat before CONCORD arrives. I can equip a gank ship for that specific reason for under 1mill ISK. How much does your salavge boat cost? If I blow you up and then CONCORD blows up my alt, who is going to lose more money on it? I've had a new player keep returning to my missions and keep getting blown up until he started crying and calling hacks and bans and the whole works. Is that something you want a new player to experience? I am just warning them. Many mission runners will not stand for their a-hole behaviour (sic).

Fair enough. For the record, I've had 2 of those suicide dessys have a go at me and they've managed to get into my shields by 15% or so before I was away (they still got CONCORDED and took the big sec hit). You will lose ships doing this profession, but after a while you realize you can buy the hulls for pathetically cheap (like 30K or 40K if you're even slightly patient). If the MR does manage to gank you, you'll likely be able to scram back and get loot from both wrecks. Either way, your back in business in a very few minutes since our ships are all but throw aways. Yeah sure, it'll take me a day to build my rigs back. Eventually though, my buddies in the Guristas, Sanshas, Bloods, etc. will get a missioner's ship or two for me. Once I've looted those, I'm so far ahead of the game that it'll take about 10 or 12 suicide dessy ganks for me to fall behind.

For the record though, my "good frigate" costs me about 3 mil in mods and I sc**** off my salvage "take" to manufacture my own rigs but let's call those another 3 mil in opportunity cost. I make money every time I lose a frigate hull because I don't insure them and buy them for a fraction of the asking price (I've got 8 or 9 Min frigates lying around ATM that I paid about 30K-ish for). But of course, all those mods won't be destroyed, nor will your dessys and so we'll race back to see who can get them. I'm back in business in the time it takes me to grab yet another ship and undock.

But I will concede Johnny's point, you will probably make some folks very angry along the way if you try Ninja Salvaging. They can try to gank you, but if you're somewhat watchful, it's not a 100% chance that they're successful. But other than a few pure Care Bear pursuits in EVE, there's always going to be players who are competing against you and as a new player, you have to decide how much competition you can handle.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.11.17 01:55:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Solomar Espersei
New players, this is an excellent guide, with the exception that the OP and others have never had the experience of being brand new to EVE and going into salvaging as a profession. I have. It is extremely profitable for a new player. Anyone saying otherwise is either grinding an axe or is woefully uniformed.

Let me set a few things straight here...
First off, I may not personally be a new character nor had any recent alts trying to ninja-salvage, but that doesn't mean I don't have acquaintances that ARE new AND ninja-salvaged early on.
If you look at the initial posts closer, you will see the following bolded part... "while not the most lucrative things you can do on a regular basis, SOME of them can offer the enterprising (and unscrupulous) beginner untold riches compared to any other endeavour he could embark on, at his young age"... exactly after mentioning (amongst other things) ninja-salvaging and linking to a ninja-salvage guide.
Now, if that doesn't say exactly what you just accused me of not saying, I don't know what else could.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.11.17 02:10:00 - [141]
 


Quote:
It is because you are a new player that you do not really understand how an alt can blow up your salvage boat before CONCORD arrives. I can equip a gank ship for that specific reason for under 1mill ISK. How much does your salavge boat cost? If I blow you up and then CONCORD blows up my alt, who is going to lose more money on it? I've had a new player keep returning to my missions and keep getting blown up until he started crying and calling hacks and bans and the whole works. Is that something you want a new player to experience? I am just warning them. Many mission runners will not stand for their a-hole behaviour.


Erm...a basic salvage frig costs <500K ISK. Also, you can only do that so often before your alt has to grind up sec status.


LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:12:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Solomar Espersei
Edited by: Solomar Espersei on 15/11/2009 14:53:56I made so much more ISK compared to Lv 1 mission running that I'm amazed that anyone actually does them.



You run lvl1 missions to get standing so you can run lvl2, so you can get standing to run lvl3, so you can run your own dang lvl4's instead of having to scan me down and steal my salvage..... blood sucking leaches.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:21:00 - [143]
 

I wonder if CCP realizes how much hate and malcontent their mechanics on salvage cause.

Here's an idea.

In real life, wrecks belong to you as long as you are present. Only if no one is around are they "fair game".

So, as long as I'm "on the grid"/"in the mission space" with my wrecks (or someone in my corp/fleet is), you can't salvage without GCC. If you find wrecks and no one is there... then they are fair game.

I think that would go A LONG way to soothing the ill will generated by people stealing other peoples' wrecks.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:28:00 - [144]
 

I do the "2 accounts" thing. One kills while the other salvages. Works most of the time pretty well. In missions with multi-respawn it can be a bit of a hastle... but it works.


Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2009.11.18 00:28:00 - [145]
 

@ Akita T,

Please, I did say it was an excellent guide and meant that; kudos. To be fair though, your phrase "DUBIOUS MORALITY" is, in my opinion, casting a disparaging light on one of the mini professions in the game.

Quote:
You run lvl1 missions to get standing so you can run lvl2, so you can get standing to run lvl3, so you can run your own dang lvl4's instead of having to scan me down and steal my salvage.....

Sorry to be such a spoil sport, but in RL, wrecked ships on the open seas (maritime law) have ever been the property of the person who finds them first.

Look, the rules are what they are, and currently, the wrecks, or more properly the salvage derived from them, belong to the first person who gets a salvager on them. There is no stealing involved. I don't think there is any amount of money, and I'm talking RL money here, that you could pay me to wade through mission grinding just so I can fly frigates and salvage Large and Medium NPC wrecks.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.11.18 02:32:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 18/11/2009 02:38:08
Originally by: Solomar Espersei
Please, I did say it was an excellent guide and meant that; kudos. To be fair though, your phrase "DUBIOUS MORALITY" is, in my opinion, casting a disparaging light on one of the mini professions in the game.

Well, you can't deny it's not exactly the paragon of virtue, this "mini-profession", now is it ?
I didn't say it was "evil" (because, well, it's not inherently evil), and in some cases it might even be neutral, or, heck, good (offering to loot/salvage for a mission-runner that never does that himself and split the profit). Still, in most cases, its moral value is ambiguous _at best_ and quite deep into the "bad" side of the morality-o-meter scale most of the time.
Scanning for wrecks is impossible (don't ask me why, only CCP knows, it's quite a stupid move if you ask me, they should allow scanning for wrecks) - meaning that the only way to find wrecks in space is to find somebody "generating" wrecks instead (i.e. mission-runners). In other words, instead of CCP allowing you to find abandoned wreck fields (there still are people who don't even bother with looting, let alone salvaging - not to talk of the possibility to add more/only salvaging mini-sites to exploration spawns), they pretty much force you to antagonize the mission-runner.

So, yeah, this mini-profession is by CURRENT design of "dubious morality", not quite like lowsec pirating or highsec suicide-ganking or whatnot, but close enough to scamming or other non-automatically-punishable activities.
I mean, scamming is also a mini-profession for the game, but you don't hear anybody complaining when I call it "of dubious morality".
Anything that almost certainly makes your (direct or indirect) target hate your guts and want to blow you up for something you just did _IS_ almost by definition the very least of "dubious" morality, and I'm really holding back on the epithets here because I include things like ninja-salvaging which are not quite that "bad", yet still not "good".

It's easy, really. Pick any activity.
Now, answer a simple question : is that activity likely to make somebody become your personal enemy ?
If no, then it's a "moral" activity. If yes, then it's at least of "dubious morality".

What other words would you use to describe ninja-salvaging anyway ? Helpful ? Altruistic ? Laughing
"Dubious morality" is the best you can get as a game-wide consensus, seriously, I dare you to try better.
Now, would CCP change their rules, and, say, have wrecks lose ownership 1 hour after they're generated, then keep wrecks around longer than 2 hours, and make scanning OF THOSE no-owner wrecks possible, then I would completely agree THAT kind of salvaging would indeed be about on par morality-wise with mining.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.12.21 07:59:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 21/12/2009 08:01:54
_

Keepalive bumpity-bump ! Wink
_

By the way, COSMOS missions just got a LOT more attractive much earlier on, since the skills required for some of the missions (hacking, archeology) had their prerequisites significantly lowered.

One of the best COSMOS-related sites I ever stumbled upon is this :
http://www.hb3.info/cosmos/ (Linkage)
...the only problem being that parts of it are in German (autotranslate from Google should be enough to understand what you need to know).

Abdiesus
Amarr
Suddenly Ninjas
Posted - 2009.12.21 09:19:00 - [148]
 

Chiming in to back up Sol on Ninja Salvaging.

I managed to grab the 21 day trial off Steam just before it was pulled, and by the end of that trial I'd payed for a PLEX to activate my account(280mil ISK), two salvage ships(vigil) and one scanner(probe) in all the highsec mission hub systems, rigs and all the skills necessary for this career.

Now that my skills are trained up a bit, I make 10-30mil each evening playing fairly casually, compared to a few hundred K doing missions. I also get free entertainment from the more..."militant" mission runners I run across.

To be quite honest, if CCP made wrecks scannable instead of MRs, I'd be all for it, as I'd likely make even more ISK than I do using this method. But even with the current mechanics, the chance of losing a ship occasionally, and the time it takes to scan out MRs, salvaging is hands-down the best money you can make as a noob.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.12.21 09:41:00 - [149]
 

Quote:
Anything that almost certainly makes your (direct or indirect) target hate your guts and want to blow you up for something you just did _IS_ almost by definition the very least of "dubious" morality, and I'm really holding back on the epithets here because I include things like ninja-salvaging which are not quite that "bad", yet still not "good".

It's easy, really. Pick any activity.
Now, answer a simple question : is that activity likely to make somebody become your personal enemy ?
If no, then it's a "moral" activity. If yes, then it's at least of "dubious morality".



I've seen people come onto the forums and ***** about people mining their asteroids. That doesn't make mining a "dubious-morality" profession. Also, mining, exploration, missionrunning...aren't "Good" either. They're all neutral.

Just because someone can get butthurt over ninjasalvaging doesn't make ninjaing wrong at all. It just means that the person in question has a bloated sense of entitlement.


Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.12.22 22:09:00 - [150]
 

The "dubious morality" of ninja-salvaging is based on the assumption that wrecks of ships you blow up belong to you.

You blew up the ship, you got your reward. Now it's a race to salvage the wrecks before someone else gets to them.

This is the game, it's designed to cause tension between players. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen: there are plenty of other options for generating ISK which won't put you into direct contact with your competition.



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