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Jasqar
Posted - 2008.05.20 21:53:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 19/05/2008 04:29:28

2. MISSION RUNNING

There are drawbacks to REJECTING a mission too.
If you reject a mission, a 4 hour timer for that agent starts (hidden to you, so you might want to write down the moment you clicked the reject option for the agent).
IF you reject ANOTHER mission before the timer expired, you will take a standings hit with the agent, his corp AND HIS FACTION.
While the standings hit is not huge, it's a good idea to avoid it nevertheless. That's why areas with multiple agents for the same corp or faction are prefered by mission-runners, since you can just ask another agent for a mission while the timer expires on another mission you were offered and you want to reject.




Click on the agent/show info/note and write there the date/time you refuse missions. Never have to worry about losing it:) Really helps if you juggle alot of agents and refuse often.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.21 11:58:00 - [32]
 

Yup, all notes, be it notes about other pilots, about agents, even the whole "notepad" ones, they're all stored server-side... so no matter where you go, if you download EVE there and run it, you still have them.
Now, if only the overview settings and all that would be server-side too... oh well *shrug*.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.25 17:14:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 24/03/2011 23:09:22
EDIT: About half a year after this post was first made, the Thukker tribe got promoted from pirate to minor empire faction, and many of its standings changed.
See link at bottom of post for details.

=

SOURCE: Linkage

HOW TO READ:
The first table (linked as image) is the "relationship" table, which incidentally is also the same table as the "standings cap" table.
If you have already reached that number, standings won't go up above (if positive) or down below (if negative) even if until now they used to. You read that table top to bottom.
Example : running missions for Amarr will increase Caldari standings too, until you reach +7.00, then cease increasing ; however, running missions for Caldari, you will only be able to increase standings up to +5.00 with Amarr.
The second table (linked as image) is the "derived standings mod". The table itself is almost the same as the first, but the "faction size" is already factored in... that's how big the gains/losses are compared to the gains with the faction you did the storyline for. You read that table left to right.
Example : running missions for Caldari and getting a (hypothetical) 10% standings increase will increase Amarr standings by 5%, increase Ammatar standings 7.5%, decrease Gallente standings 5%, ... , increase standings with Mordu's Legion 15% (yes, 15%, more than with Caldari) and decrease it 11.6% with the Blood Raiders.

WHEN DO I LOSE ACCESS ?
At -2.00 effective faction standing (that's -5.00 base if you also have Diplomacy level 5 trained), you will lose access to ALL agents of that particular faction, no matter how high your corp/agent standings are.

HOW CAN I GET ACCESS TO EMPIRE AGENTS BACK ?
You run missions for a "friendly" faction for which you haven't lost acces yet.
For instance, if you were running Gallente missions, you will never go below -3.00 base with Ammatar mandate, so you can go mission for them to get Amarr/Caldari standings back up.
Khanid Kingdom and Servant Sisters of EVE serve similar purposes, first for Amarr/Cadari too, second for Gallente/Minmatar standings recovery.
ORE would also be a candidate for Gallente/Minmatar standings recovery, but their agents are in 0.0, which makes them less desirable... the rest have some highsec agents here and there.


HOW CAN I GET ACCESS TO PIRATE AGENTS BACK ?
The pirate factions are separated in two groups : Angels-Serpentis-Syndicate-Thukker and Guristas-Bloods-Sansha.

Run missions for Caldari in Caldari space, and you will get heavy negative Blood/Sansha standings (no derived Guristas, as weird as it sounds)... but you also get a lot of missions against Guristas, and killing Gurista ships will cause standings losses with the Guristas too.
Once you hit -5.00 with all three (Gurista/Blood/Sansha), there is no turning back.
You are forever trapped out of ALL of them, with no way to recover.

The other four share a similar fate if you run missions for Gallente, but at least it leaves the Thukker standing at -2.00 base (so even with L1 diplomacy you can still run missions for them - unless you also run a lot of missions that pit you against Thukker ships, in which case you're equally screwed).

So... the only way to recover faction standings with the pirate factions is to watch out carefully to NOT get under -5.00 base with all in one "group", then quickly run missions for the one in the group you still have access to... which might prove problematic, at best (or downright impossible for some).

=

One of the recent patches made it so that negative quality L1 agents NEVER "close up" on you.
Also, see this handy standings recovery plan thread.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.25 17:45:00 - [34]
 


If you pick mission-running, one of the first few skills you should train is CONNECTIONS.
You need Social level 3 to train it (18,000.00 ISK usually), and costs 180,000.00 ISK at pretty much any starter school station.
That's 198k ISK for both if you have none yet, and a couple of hours (around half a day or so) to train.

"Social" will increase your gains by 5% per level.
So, if you were getting a 10% increase in standings without Social trained, with Social level 3 trained, the same mission would have given you a 11.5% standings increase instead.

"Connections" will increase your effective standings by 4% of difference between current standings and +10.0.

Say you have L1 Connections trained.
So, if you are at ever so slightly above 0.00, your EFFECTIVE standing will be +0.40.
However, if you already have +5.00, your effective standings will only be +5.20.
At +9.00 base standings, all you get is a measly +9.04 effective.

How about with L4 Connections trained ?
Again, at ever so slightly above 0.00 standings, you will get an effective +1.60 ; that's quite impressive, and should give you access to a lot of L2 agents.
At +5.00 base, that's only +5.80... not that hot, but still matters.
At +9.00 base, it becomes a mere +9.16, which is not that relevant anymore.


In other words, train CONNECTIONS as high as you can as fast as you can, and pump up Social above minimum only later on... because a single level in Connections will give you a lot more instant benefit than a lot of grinding at slightly increased per mission gain (from extra levels in social).
Later on, when you have acces to L3 and maybe even L4 agents, Connections becomes less important, and Social becomes more important again.

Personally, I'd recommend Social 3 (prerequisite), the Connections 3, later on Connections 4, only afterwards Social 4 and eventually Social 5 (purely optional).
Usually Connections 5 is almost never worth it, but can be useful in very specific circumstances (which you are unlikely to encounter as a normal pilot, and even then the benefit is minimal).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.26 10:43:00 - [35]
 


Oh, and I had to add this... THE mistake "rookie" mission-runners make (especially Caldari mission-runners) when they decide what corp/agents to run missions for : they usually go for the Navy (in this case, Caldari Navy).
Now, don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently bad about working for the Caldari Navy, especially if you need the standings for lowered broker fees (the MAIN trade hub of EVE right now is Jita IV - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant).

BUT... if you want something from the LP store, or you want "the best paying agents", a lot of people do not realize that system security matters a lot more than agent base quality... and they also forget to train skills like Negotiations (increases agent effective quality by 5 for every level trained).
So, for instance, a vast majority of mission-runners will flocklike crazy to Motsu (0.8728 truesec, displayed as 0.9) to work for Toras Egassuo (L4 Q18, Command)... when another agent, Kikosuda Partoh (L4 Q13, Command), located merely two jumps away, in Aramachi (0.4898 truesec, displayed as 0.5) will offer substantially better rewards (ISK/LP) for each individual mission.
I have been in that area, and there are a LOT of mission-runners around... pick any of them, look at their standings... most of them have a very high standing with Toras, but almost none have any with Kikosuda... they're practicaly throwing away an almost 50% increase in rewards because they fail to realize this simple fact : agent quality means next to nothing compared to system truesec.

Of course, the best thing to do is avoid Caldari Navy altogether, and pick a different corporation, in order to avoid the nasty lag of mission hubs.
The LP shop items are almost identical for most Caldari corps anyway... the most "desirable" items exist in all of them (the faction ships, the faction launchers, CN ballistic controls, CN missiles, etc). Yes, you CAN get a Caldari Navy Raven from any Caldari corp LP store, you DON'T have to work for the Caldari Navy itself.

For instance, you could pick Ishukone Watch and Itatoh Isanori (L4 Q-8) in Otalieto (0.513 truesec, displayed 0.5)... sure, not the greatest quality, and not the lowest possible highsec around... and also has some lowsecs nearby where the agent MIGHT send you to... but still, it's an alternative, and should give you decent LP.
Or, you might go for Home Guard or Spacelane Patrol, both of them having agents (2 L4 for HG, 1 L4 for SlP, same thing with L3 agents) in Torrinos (0.52 truesec), which is also a 0.0 entry point, so you can sell your mission loot quite nicely (again, the risk is that you could be sent in a lowsec nearby, but with so many agents available, you should have no problems selecting only the missions in highsec).
Might even go with Corporate Police Force, and use the L4 Q18 agent in Irjunen (0.52 truesec), Eratsaka Ogyonin (Surveillance). Ok, so not the most well-known division, but it's both high quality, in a reasonably low truesec highsec system that doesn't have many lowsec systems nearby.

...and so on and so forth, these are merely examples of OTHER agents you could pick (they're not even necessarily the best possible picks either for each and every one).
The point was, you are NOT obligated to run the best quality Caldari Navy agent... pick a reasonable quality L4 agent in a 0.5 or 0.6 system, preferably at least 2 jumps away from lowsec, and use that in peace and quiet... and I say "peace and quiet" because it's very unlikely to see the 200+ in local there like you see in Motsu all the time (and the inevitable lag that follows).

Ard UnjiiGo
Meatshield Bastards
Posted - 2008.05.26 18:05:00 - [36]
 

Excellent, easy to read guide Akita. Gets my vote for addition to the rookie resource guide.

Signed,
Someone (allegedly) of Dubious Morality YARRRR!!

voetius
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.26 20:59:00 - [37]
 

my vote as well - I was just thinking that - after blowing the best part of 50 mill ISK on a BC and fittings, skillbooks and a couple of +3 implants - that I really needed to start earning some ISK fast.

Switched agents as per above and things are going better now.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.27 04:26:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: voetius
Switched agents as per above and things are going better now.

Just for the sake of argument (and for my failing memory, it's been almost a year and a half since I ran missions in Motsu/Aramachi), would you let the people know just how much better the transition was ?
By the way, rewards will get better... if you used to run a LOT of missions for the old agent (9+ effective standings), the EQ difference is very likely to be not 5, but 13 or even 14 (depends on connections skill level), so rewards will improve a little bit more as you run missions for the new agent.

voetius
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.27 06:00:00 - [39]
 


I'll do my best to reply to that.

My old agent was in 0.7 real sec. status system. Level 3 quality 13 with effective standing of 5.26 (including connections 2).

My new agents are in a 0.5 real sec. status system (the numbers just happen to be exact).

Level 3 quality 0 effective standing 2.15 (including connections)

Level 3 quality 15 effective standing 1.42

When I talk to the agents my effective standing shows as 7.2 - I assume that is my standing with the Caldari Navy? All the agents above are Caldari Navy. I have done a lot of missions for the Caldari Navy in the last 2 - 3 weeks.

Rewards vary from mission to mission but off the top of my head the sort of payouts I was getting in the 0.7 sector averaged about 500 - 600 k including time bonus and say 600 loyalty points.

In the 0.5 sector I have done three missions, best paying one was 1.1 mill including time bonus and 1000+ loyalty points.

The three missions in the 0.5 sector netted me about 6 mill with bounties and some loot collected and sold. Took about 3 hours.

Myth'or Cordalan
Posted - 2008.05.27 15:28:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 18/05/2008 23:36:23

7. RATTING


This is a lot like mission-running too, but it's done in asteroid belts.
The problem is that the "good NPC rats" only appear in lower-security systems, and the very good ones only in deep 0.0 space.

The advantage of ratting (especially for the beginner) is that highsec belt rats are VERY EASY to kill, and you find usually a lot less of them compared to what you could find in a mission.
The drawback (compared to a mission) is that you don't get any agent/corp/faction standings for doing this (but you still might lose a bit of standing with the pirate NPC factions - you would lose them if you ran missions too, anyway).

The other (minor) advantage of ratting is that there's always a (very small) chance of encountering a "faction spawn", even in empire highsec.
While they usually only drop some tags, faction ammo and such, you might also find occasionally some valuable faction modules, or even more valuable implants.
Still, it's a small chance, and the drops are very random, so it's not a good source of steady income.




An addendum seems to be necessary: ratting increases your standing with CONCORD, i.e. killing rats gives you a higher security status. So if you have a rather low security status for some reason, you may raise it by hunting some rats.

voetius
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:40:00 - [41]
 

w.r.t. to ratting - I did a fair amount when I first got a Kestrel and picked up some faction ammo - Gurista Bloodclaws - slightly more damage than the standard ones.

But the rats to look out for are the miners - Gurista Harvester and Sansha Ferriers are the only ones that I have come across. They were all carrying a full load of either trit (both Sanshas had 50k of trit) or some other mineral with the Gurista and I got about a mill. ISK for all the above.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:02:00 - [42]
 

Well, in 0.0 you can find (pretty often in the right spots) NPCs with bounties up to almost 2 mil, and multi-milion units of tritanium or even pyerite in "hauler spawns"...

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.31 10:27:00 - [43]
 

That's a nice guide, Akita T.
Sticky please !

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.06.07 05:27:00 - [44]
 


I fear I have been focusing a bit too much on the mission-running part (while probably the easiest way to make good ISK in highsec, and probably one of the safest after you have the proper skills and such, it's not much less boring than mining)... just for the record, while I hated mining from the very start, I did nevertheless mine a little bit myself every now and then... and while I do have ample mission-running experience, I seldom run missions myself lately (mostly just helping corp-mates in their harder missions, or running some missions to split standings with a newer corpmate, so he can get to higher-level missions faster and so on)... and even if I have decent manufacture/invention skills, I hardly ever manufacture or invent things... in the past year or so, I earned most of my cash from daytrading, investments, loans and such other "minimal effort" activities.

Soooo.... would anybody else have anything to add about something OTHER than mission-running ?
For instance, the whole "questionable activities" section was barely touched by others YARRRR!!
And a lot of the other things could use a bit of extra narrative from people that practice it.

LetsDoThis
Posted - 2008.06.07 07:25:00 - [45]
 

Exploration, especially lowsec exploration, is highly skill intensive. I consider it a veteran isk making venture, in order to do it right. (minimizing risks of losing your investments)

Pan Dora
Caldari
Organization for Nuclear Research
Posted - 2008.06.07 07:29:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Akita T
For instance, the whole "questionable activities" section was barely touched by others YARRRR!!



I think its mostly because the questionable activities work better when people dont talk to much about it Wink.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.06.07 10:46:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Things to watch out for : OPPORTUNITY COST.
That means, if you are selling something, you'd better damn well sell it for more ISK than you could have made by simply selling the things you used to manufacture it with... or else there's no point in manufacturing at all in the first place.

That's the most critical mistake a rookie manufacturer makes : selling below cost.
And the reason he does not go bankrupt is that he usually mines the ore himself, then reprocesses it, and uses those minerals to manufacture.
SURE, if you CANNOT sell the minerals at an acceptable price in the location they are in, then manufacturing something that actually sells at that location would make sense (but only if the effort is less than the effort you'd have to make to haul the minerals somewhere they can sell).
But if you CAN sell the minerals decently, manufacturing and selling something below that "opportunity cost" is STUPID.

You are not entirely correct here. You focus on total ISK earned, where you should focus on ISK earned per RL time unit.

Say you have a Raven's worth of minerals.... This usually takes a lot of micromanagement of the sell orders, which takes up a lot of real time spent. They also don't sell fast.
On the other hand, building those minerals into a Raven is a few clicks, and after being built you just have to put up a reasonable sell order for it, and it'll sell reasonably quick.

So, by selling those minerals in the shape of a Raven, even if it is at a marginally lower price, I'll still have earned more ISK per RL time spent. I'll also get my money fast compared to mineral sales.

Opportunity cost is real, but it is not all that applicable for people not dealing in mass amounts of minerals.

Naiqton
Posted - 2008.06.07 11:33:00 - [48]
 

Hope get sticky.

Excellent guide!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.06.07 11:42:00 - [49]
 

The part where I said "if you CAN sell the minerals decently" would have been a dead giveaway Twisted Evil

Sure, if you can't be bothered to micromanage mineral sell orders and you would have sold to mineral buy orders instead (or somewhere in between), that's the price you should take into account when you decide to manufacture something or not.
I thought that part was pretty clear...

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.06.07 13:37:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Akita T
The part where I said "if you CAN sell the minerals decently" would have been a dead giveaway Twisted Evil

Sure, if you can't be bothered to micromanage mineral sell orders and you would have sold to mineral buy orders instead (or somewhere in between), that's the price you should take into account when you decide to manufacture something or not.
I thought that part was pretty clear...

Actually it wasn't. There's a clear difference between 'can sell decently' and 'can sell decently without excessive effort'. You only covered ISK income and didn't mention time/effort at all.

The term 'opportunity cost' is almost never mentioned by small-time traders where the time it takes to sell stuff would be a significant. It is most often used by big-time traders who moan that small-time traders sell at lower price than they themselves are willing to.

It does in fact quite often make sense for small-time traders (like newbies) to sell at a lower price that ensures they get the money fast. That way they'll have the money soon to invest in their future (skills, ships etc.). The opportunity 'loss' for them is lost time (waiting for the money to come in), not marginally less ISK overall.

'Opportunity cost' when relating to ISK is generally only relevant to traders operating with multiple billions of ISK. For most others it is relatively insignificant.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.06.07 15:35:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 07/06/2008 17:42:06

I think you got something wrong here... at least two things, actually, quite possibly three or more.

First, a big-time trader can easily afford to be (and usually is) a "market-maker", both buying and selling at the same location, living off the margin. The actual value of the goods is of no direct consequence, as long as the stock moves in large volumes and is liquidated with a positive ISK balance.
Any small-time trader should be positively insane to try to get in there, since both the buy and the sell orders are pretty close together. A small-time trader should try to exploit price differences between stations, solar systems or even regions to his advantage (basically, a small-time hauler/trader, as opposed to a big-time daytrader).

Then, we have your remark about "big traders moaning about small traders selling cheaper" which brings us to the second thing you possibly got wrong. That remark is at best misguided, or downright incorrect. Big traders NEVER complain about small traders, they rely on them to even out inter-regional prices and do most of the leg-work for them. A big trader doesn't even bother leaving the trade hub, ever.
If anybody's complaining of anything, it's either LAZY traders about manufacturers selling under mineral cost (which is easily solved by buying off their stock and relisting), or legit manufacturers compaining about the same spoken-about manufacturers (in which case, all they can do is either stop manufacturing or become traders instead themselves).

Last but not least, you seem to imply that ships/mods sell easy, but minerals sell hard ? The exact opposite is true, IF you want fast ISK, the easiest thing to sell is minerals, NOT complete products.
There are some exceptions to that rule, but they only confirm it, because they're very location-specific (NOT trade hubs) and usually in either seldom-travelled systems or 0.0/lowsec entry points.
Everywhere else, you can always find at least half-decent buy orders for minerals, and larger quantities of decently-priced mineral sell orders go away fast... while ships and modules can sit around a long time unpurchased.


So... well... sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you're actually trying to say there.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.06.07 17:44:00 - [52]
 

It may be that modules are not easy to sell. I never claimed they were. Ravens however, I've never had any difficulty in selling anywhere within a day or two, with no micromanagement of sell orders.
Your claims that minerals are easy to sell are true, if you sell below market. In that case though, you'll earn more selling a battleship.

This is 2.5 years of selling refined mission loot talking. I've tried selling the minerals, but someone else always comes in and undercuts, and then you have to micromanage. Building a Raven (did the same with Cormorants when I was a noob) and putting it for sale never failed, didn't waste time, and didn't leave my values locked up in stuff waiting to sell....

Using 'Opportunity Cost' as you do to get the most ISK, is simply wrong. The objective is ISK/effort.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.06.08 19:03:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 08/06/2008 19:06:57

For instance, in Jita (yeah, I know, not the best example, but still), you can buy a Raven, refine it, sell it to existing mineral buy orders, and barely lose a couple of mil in the process... actually, barely the cost of a Raven BPC.
But yeah, you're right, it does depend a lot on location... in remote places, selling the minerals might be tedious as heck, while a ship might sell pretty fast, even for a decent markup above that in a faraway hub.

Still, the point remains, just the interpretation needed clarification : your location IS an integral part of the opportunity cost calculation process.
You should consider opportunity cost at whatever *valid* choices you have only.
If nobody would buy your minerals locally unless they're severely under average, then obviously this is not the best alternative.
If it would take simply too long to haul the minerals to a better place, then yeah, the opportunity cost is far under average for this option too.
So, yes, in remote location, selling a ship MIGHT be the best alternative.

The whole point of "opportunity cost" is to consider all possible alternatives.
And yes, if the difference is minimal, then convenience usually takes precedence, and the option requiring least effort usually prevails... if the difference is not minimal, it's a matter of profit margin vs urgency/volume.

P.S. "Your time" (i.e. effort) is obviously also a factor in opportunity cost. If you have to spend 1 hour a day playing with sell orders instead of mining or running missions or whatnot, that should be reflected in.
But, like I said in the opening of the OP, you can also have the option of ignoring all of these factors if you think your actions are "fun" enough as it is, and your goal is not getting ISK. But iof your goal IS getting ISK to have fun by using it on something else... well, that's what this entire thread is about.

Orgtigger
Posted - 2008.06.16 20:51:00 - [54]
 

I will agree that beginners should try manufacturing. If not to make money than at least to reduce costs. I make a majority of my ISK daytrading and mission running, but I manufacture ammo on the side to reduce costs.
I should mention that all the minerals I use to manufacture the ammo are refined from T1 modules that either don't sell, or the price is so low you make more money by reprocessing them.
The point being, while you may have a hard time manufacturing for profit, you can certainly manufacture to reduce costs.

Billy Sastard
Amarr
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2008.06.17 00:55:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Billy Sastard on 17/06/2008 00:56:26
I object to your classification of 'ninja-salvaging' as a dubious morality occupation. If there was an actual theft going on, then maybe, but salvage is free to all.

If someone takes the time to learn how to probe and finds mission runners and cleans out thier wrecks, they are just doing what CCP intended when salvage was added to the game. Salvage was not added as another gimme for mission runners, it was added as a new additional career path, and people following that path should not be put in the same category as scammers and suicide gankers.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.07.06 18:19:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Billy Sastard
I object to your classification of 'ninja-salvaging' as a dubious morality occupation. If there was an actual theft going on, then maybe, but salvage is free to all.

If there's an argument raging, it's of "dubious" morality, wouldn't you agree ? Wink
Note that I didn't say it's a "criminal act" Razz

Oweim
Gallente
Sephray Industries
Posted - 2008.07.07 03:56:00 - [57]
 

as a noob ratting in .5-.7 space can pay off, I've pulled nice tags and a T2 implant once (still for sale ;) ) Fortunately my friend informed me what it was before I plugged it in lol.

Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.07 08:58:00 - [58]
 

glue?

Alyx Farstrider
Posted - 2008.07.07 09:58:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Alyx Farstrider on 07/07/2008 09:58:48
First off, I'd like to thank Akita T for the guide - especially for the part about derived standings for mission runners.

Secondly, I'd like to say something about Opportunity Cost:-

Basically it means "The cost of something that you've given up to get something else", and it reflects the relationship between scarcity and choice.

You say "Isk/Time is what matters", but this isn't really true. True, Isk and Time are both scarce, however they are not the only factors you need to weigh in while calculating "cost". e.g. I'd rather spend an hour doing something fun than doing something tedious - which is what Akita T is trying to express. An hour AFK "costs" less than an hour of split attention, and an hour of split attention costs less than an hour of close attention (I suspect this is why the passive-tank drake is popular...).

Saying that it's "irrelevant" unless you're dealing in billions of ISK is not correct - however a new player has different factors to weigh up. Is prioritising learning skills worth not learning Cruisers I for a week? Is a quick sale worth a large undercut?

I find it unlikely that manufacturers who are selling below cost price think that minerals they've harvested themselves are "free". Manufacturers who complain that other manufacturers are selling below market rate are falling victim of the exact same misunderstanding - if you make more money selling something else, why are you still making missiles? Why don't you e.g. buy theirs and sell them at market rate?

Well, it might be that making max money isn't your goal. Maybe people like the small achievement of crafting something and selling it, rather than selling boring minerals. A lot of people find micromanaging buy/sell orders tedious, or don't want to wait while a market-rate buy order slowly fills up and so offer large premiums or discounts so that they don't have to.

That all has to be taken into account when you calculate "opportunity cost".

For example:-

I could make 20 million ISK per hour running missions - counting bounty, salvage, reward, time bonus, selling the LP reward.

Or I could make maybe 500 million ISK per hour working overtime at my job, buying GTCs and selling them.

By your logic (ISK/hour > all) I should clearly be working instead of playing EVE. However, I'm playing EVE for fun. If EVE wasn't more fun than working...

To my knowledge there are very very few opportunities in EVE to earn more than 500m ISK/h. The goal is not "maximise ISK/h". The goal is typically "maximise both ISK/h and fun/h with an acceptible exchange rate between ISK and fun".

Some people find mission running fun. Some people find ratting fun. Some people find manufacturing fun. Some people find micromanaging buy/sell orders fun.

Each to their own, that's how EVE's market seems to work.

Avo Daith
Public Venture Enterprises
Posted - 2008.07.07 12:23:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Billy Sastard
Edited by: Billy Sastard on 17/06/2008 00:56:26
I object to your classification of 'ninja-salvaging' as a dubious morality occupation. If there was an actual theft going on, then maybe, but salvage is free to all.

If someone takes the time to learn how to probe and finds mission runners and cleans out thier wrecks, they are just doing what CCP intended when salvage was added to the game. Salvage was not added as another gimme for mission runners, it was added as a new additional career path, and people following that path should not be put in the same category as scammers and suicide gankers.


I would agree that salvaging is not of dubious morality. However partly because of the perception that it is it has attracted a lot of people that are. The only times I have encountered salvagers ingame they have refused a convo and stolen loot as well as salvaging. As well as being thieves (for the looting, not the salvaging) that also makes them potential baiters. If I can be bothered I warp out and let them deal with the NPC aggro when it happens. If more salvagers had the manners to ask if they can loot they wouldn't get such a bad rep. Personally I'm not often bothered about the salvage so if they asked, they could have it.


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