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Desash
Caldari
The Extremely Norty Gankers Union
Posted - 2008.05.27 11:39:00 - [151]
 

Last?

Efdi
Minmatar
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 11:42:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Eaiaden
IBTL omgorz, too bad we dont have post counts here no?

And btw, what a crappy thread, rly.


Look at all dem fukken bitter tears.


Om nom nom nom nom nom.

Don ZOLA
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 11:47:00 - [153]
 

thread is locked as much as BRUCE is dead tbh. im glad they are still holding and really hope they will learn their lesson from this whole "incident".

Billy Merc
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.05.27 11:47:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
Well everyone goes visit BRUCE because it is a fact they give out a ton of fights. You just have to wait and when they feel confident after assembling their sniper/rr hybrid group they will come out for you, instead of just ignoring you or dropping some titans into ya face.

This leads to them losing a ton of ships, but fact is they also keep coming back - so I can only assume if this pressure hasnt broken them already, then it is consolidating a core of pvpers that by now must know each other and like flying together. Ok - they probably arent masters at pvp or fcing as of now, but eve isnt a very complicated game and once a solid core of players sticking together is established its downhill from there. Honestly, right now, I think I see people like AAA disbanding more likely than BRUCE disbanding. I mean TRI anyone? ugh

- Gob



And what this remaining core needs to remember is...that it does NOT have to end with the loss of stations / space...sure you will have to change to survive...but you will survive if u stick togther.....hell live out of empire and terrorize 0.0 with raiding party's...u guys are red to me...but this is a game...and i play it for fun...and thats all you should do to...and if ure smart you will realize that you fun comes from flying with your mates and not owning the space u lose :)......if ure smart u prob wont be reading this thread...but iam always on the lookout for a good "lol" and caod usually has one *rRolling Eyes

Mayalla
Amarr
BulletProof Monks
Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2008.05.27 13:17:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Don ZOLA
thread is locked as much as BRUCE is dead tbh. im glad they are still holding and really hope they will learn their lesson from this whole "incident".


The only lesson learned is that PL made possible for BoB to get back in Fountain, which BoB will now do. I hope you are ready to pack your POS'es up and leave real soon.

Efdi
Minmatar
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 13:23:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Efdi on 27/05/2008 13:24:20
Edited by: Efdi on 27/05/2008 13:23:35
Originally by: Mayalla
Originally by: Don ZOLA
thread is locked as much as BRUCE is dead tbh. im glad they are still holding and really hope they will learn their lesson from this whole "incident".


The only lesson learned is that PL made possible for BoB to get back in Fountain, which BoB will now do. I hope you are ready to pack your POS'es up and leave real soon.


An alliance 1/6 the size of Bruce was able to force them to leave. Do you really think they could've stood up to BoB?

Furthermore, why don't you implode about it?

Kalmanaka
Caldari
Eve Engineering Operations
Eve Engineering
Posted - 2008.05.27 13:25:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Mayalla
Originally by: Don ZOLA
thread is locked as much as BRUCE is dead tbh. im glad they are still holding and really hope they will learn their lesson from this whole "incident".


The only lesson learned is that PL made possible for BoB to get back in Fountain, which BoB will now do. I hope you are ready to pack your POS'es up and leave real soon.


That's what all good pets do in Eve, and why PL never cared about POS warfare. They just had to soften BRUCE up for their masters.

Kaar
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.05.27 13:28:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Kalmanaka

That's what all good pets do in Eve, and why PL never cared about POS warfare. They just had to soften BRUCE up for their masters.


I'd lay off the master/pet comments while your IRC tag is showing.

Kalmanaka
Caldari
Eve Engineering Operations
Eve Engineering
Posted - 2008.05.27 13:36:00 - [159]
 

Didn't say it was a bad thing, just stating the obvious.

Vile rat
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.27 13:49:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Kalmanaka

That's what all good pets do in Eve, and why PL never cared about POS warfare. They just had to soften BRUCE up for their masters.


wow. Did you just say that PL were bob pets?

Wesley Baird
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2008.05.27 14:00:00 - [161]
 

Heard locked topics were all the rage this year.


Corvac
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 14:04:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Kalmanaka

That's what all good pets do in Eve, and why PL never cared about POS warfare. They just had to soften BRUCE up for their masters.


wow. Did you just say that PL were bob pets?


Yeah, we are goon pets. Get your facts straight.

Eltyron
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 14:12:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Corvac
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Kalmanaka

That's what all good pets do in Eve, and why PL never cared about POS warfare. They just had to soften BRUCE up for their masters.


wow. Did you just say that PL were bob pets?


Yeah, we are goon pets. Get your facts straight.


And Goons are BoB pets. This was all explained by Slinktress, Vile. I am a little suprised that the memo has gotten lost Sad

As for BRUCE, I for one am glad to see you cheerleading for BoB like a good pet to come avenge you. I look forward to future CAOD posts with much bitterness towards us when said Delve entities come after us, after all, the blame is much easier to lay on us then you, correct?

Don ZOLA
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 14:30:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Mayalla
Originally by: Don ZOLA
thread is locked as much as BRUCE is dead tbh. im glad they are still holding and really hope they will learn their lesson from this whole "incident".


The only lesson learned is that PL made possible for BoB to get back in Fountain, which BoB will now do. I hope you are ready to pack your POS'es up and leave real soon.


avast. there are some which didnt learn the lesson yet. to cut the long story short - dont do the talk if you cant back it up. you had us as allies, YOU (not literally you i mean your leaders) decided to change that. they could have made deals - they didnt wanted. well take responsibility for your decisions and suffer consequences. who will come to fountain after Bruce its totally not our concern.

and btw neither PL and especially nor BRUCE can stop BOB from coming back to fountain. what was your mistake is that you could have used period before they decide to get back to get richer and strenghter alliance, not to get it in condition it is atm. So plz dont try to spin it again.

and on pets issue, we are everyones pets, just cuz we are so luvable and fluffy :)

HotSeat
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 15:35:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Mayalla
Originally by: Don ZOLA
thread is locked as much as BRUCE is dead tbh. im glad they are still holding and really hope they will learn their lesson from this whole "incident".


The only lesson learned is that PL made possible for BoB to get back in Fountain, which BoB will now do. I hope you are ready to pack your POS'es up and leave real soon.



LOL.... PL doing something that will make Bob attack us, that never happen's Rolling Eyes

Scary to think how misinformed Bruce is about who PL are, and what it is we do in Eve. Oh well, lesson one learned, lets see about lesson 2 Laughing



Smurf Fellator
Caldari
Nihilists LLC
Posted - 2008.05.27 16:14:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Smurf Fellator on 27/05/2008 16:25:48
Edited by: Smurf Fellator on 27/05/2008 16:23:32
Edited by: Smurf Fellator on 27/05/2008 16:19:00
I, another Bruce alt, also wish to vent. I'm not hard to identify, and they can kick out my main, if they think that will benefit them at this stage.

EVE, for many of us, is our first chance to participate in an persistant organization of hundreds or thousands. The dynamics of that are, to me, far more entertaining and educational in failure mode than in rolling stomp mode. Don't be afraid of fighting on for a losing cause - in this world, you have little to lose but your clone cost, but abandoning your friends will cost you both them and a chance to participate in the endgame (at least the one EVE offers).

Pandemic Legion outskilled, outfought, and outFCed us. I have learned much about the team game from them, and hope to use it in the future. They benefit from experience and a recruitment model that only a few EVE alliances can rely upon. To any diplomats, do not measure them by their members, but by their active members, as their participation among the highest of any EVE alliance.

However, their use of metagaming in the form of third party hacking, is, I believe, cancerous to the EVE community at large. It is that, perhaps more than any other thing, that has lead to Pandemic Legion both winning maybe 50 billion isk from 2 months on the Fountain moons, and alienating hundreds of players from ever lifting a finger in support of the Something Awful adolescents.

CCP can't do anything about metagaming, only the concerted disdain of the player base can. Should the majority of the long-game players care only about "winning" at all costs, they will drive most of the player base (including targets, if you will) out of 0.0, and ultimately out of the subscriber base. That will benefit no one.

With regards to the game, CCP has created one that, unlike Clausewitz, generally benefits the offense. They've attempted to patch this fault with ridiculous POS and sovereignty dynamics that are difficult to justify even in the RP context, and which serve mostly to redistribute power from the average player onto the multiple year addicts. That said, if you, as a 0.0 sovereignty holding alliance are offering your hard won moons to the highest bidder within your alliance, you will lose them. The only alliance members that should ever hold meaningful moons are those that can demonstrate they both know how CCP wants us to set them up, and who who demonstrate the ability to man their guns 23/7. If that excludes corporations of under 200 members, fine. The long game is not about SP or isk, but about social skills.

As for Bruce, the internal disruption that occurred because of over-centralization of power and the departure of our decision-making strata is well documented on this thread and elsewhere. Few of us bemoan our cohorts choice to follow real life priorities. Indeed I submit perhaps the only way to "win" EVE is to cancel your account.

I believe most of us never bought into the fictional Fried personality cult or any innate superiority of our ways, but into the idea that we could import our real-life values of honesty and generosity of spirit into our game lives. Some of the members misinterpreted our "code" to mean we should isolate ourselves in COAD, SHC, and local chat, but that was never intended by any active leader, and did our cause no good at any rate.

Regardless of whether the Bruce alliance lives on in name, there will be many players who, through their real life upbringing, simply can never enjoy the game as griefers. There should always be a path for players who are neither carebears, nor griefers. I hope that some organization always exists to provide us a home.

Who cares about Bruce. Long live those who stand by their friends.

Eltyron
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 16:29:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Smurf Fellator

Who cares about Bruce. Long live those who stand by their friends.


The entire eleventy billion EvE players who comprised the "Coalition" cared about BRUCE. Problem was, BRUCE didn't care enough for itself or its "friends" to stand with them. It only cared about making their own wallets fat with the irrational conclusion that isk would be able to defeat BoB if they came to visit.

As for the metagaming aspect, BRUCE is probably one of the only 0.0 alliances that didn't/doesn't do it, so I'm sorry that "we" had to be your instructor. Like I said before, we're happy to be the source of your grief, it doesn't bother us at all. If it makes you feel better, so be it.

Torso Addenda
Gallente
Nihilists LLC
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:17:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Torso Addenda on 27/05/2008 17:17:11
deleted

Smurf Fellator
Caldari
Nihilists LLC
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:18:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Smurf Fellator on 27/05/2008 17:47:31
Problem was, BRUCE didn't care enough for itself or its "friends" to stand with them.

Most of the EVE communty has less then 2 years in the game, and that's perhaps why your multiple year wars over old affronts appear comical to us. As a 4 month old player I'm not aware of any significant difference between PL and BOB. BOB are 4 year old players who had a history in anti-piracy and feudal diplomacy. PL are 3 year old players who have a history in piracy and feudal diplomacy. BOB justifies the waste of their real lives because of an insult to a RL friend. The coalition justified the waste of their real lives because of the lulz and a chance to break another virtual community, and are now just as addicted and in despair over their investment in time and subscription isk.

"Coalition". "Alliance". Both factions you have failed to persuade the larger EVE community of any intrinsic merit. Those are just words. We'll use your conflicts for our fun. Sometimes profit. But we will stick to the friends we've made in vent and chat and even just melting our brains watching a mining laser, over any such label.

Even the youngest among us have watched what actually transpires at higher levels of organization. The superblocks are marraiges of convenience, at best. Members join them purely because of self-interest, and internecine warfare starts as soon as self-interest dictates. "Friends" is a a misnomer when it comes to organizations of more than one thousand.

Was Bruce diplomacy misguided, overambitious, and even arrogant? Hell yeah. Has the diplomatic staff changed? From the rank and file, there seems to be some movement, but I will not reveal any blue matters of current concern in a public forum. We still had more fun than the farmers in UNL. And we provided "the most fun I've had in two years" to the leader of PL. Smells like victory to me.

As for the Bruce objection to metagaming? We'll, its a founding principle, we all agreed to it when joining. We've all read that wordy "internal" Goon memo that the long lived alliances are those that are founded on communties or principles. BoB has very long-lived friendships. Goons have Something Aweful. Bruce was younger and tried principles. Perhaps the wrong ones. And we all saw how that experiment played out. I've no idea what cements PL, as I'm not in in the directorship and have no access to their internal forums.

Those of us who wish to continue to play the long game will adapt, and that will extend to which principles we choose to keep, and which we abandon as being incompatible with the long game.

But an overabundance of pirates has lead to low-sec being abandoned - L4 missioners now make more money. I believe an overabundance of POS nonsense and metagaming will lead to 0.0 being abandoned. You will have an empty sandbox. Is that the (virtual) world you want? Sometimes you just have to accept the reality of a condom when there's AIDs about.

Antodias
Gallente
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:23:00 - [170]
 

I think I wasted my life reading all that.

Wesley Baird
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:24:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Smurf Fellator
snip


Should have posted with your main, its a good post.

PL bring the heat...your diplo's should have talked nice, rather than thought they had the big stick over the moon.


Igor Walesa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:41:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Smurf Fellator

But an overabundance of pirates has lead to low-sec being abandoned - L4 missioners now make more money. I believe an overabundance of POS nonsense and metagaming will lead to 0.0 being abandoned. You will have an empty sandbox. Is that the (virtual) world you want? Sometimes you just have to accept the reality of condom when there's AIDs about.



I don't know why I'm here, but I'll expand upon this.

PL, I want to give you props. You really did a great job. However, I wonder how you will feel in the coming months when you can patrol all the Fountain constellations and find them barren. Bruce space was one of the few places in which you could find activity in almost every system. There were always people on the undock, we almost always formed up to fight. Some of the areas of fountain bordered on the activity level of empire.

Good luck PL, I doubt you will find another target as enticing for a very long time. Maybe you should have savored it a little longer. Confused

(The evil Noob Mercs are camping me so I might be delusional)

Dazhbog
Caldari
T C B
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:41:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Eltyron
Originally by: Smurf Fellator

Who cares about Bruce. Long live those who stand by their friends.


The entire eleventy billion EvE players who comprised the "Coalition" cared about BRUCE. Problem was, BRUCE didn't care enough for itself or its "friends" to stand with them. It only cared about making their own wallets fat with the irrational conclusion that isk would be able to defeat BoB if they came to visit.

As for the metagaming aspect, BRUCE is probably one of the only 0.0 alliances that didn't/doesn't do it, so I'm sorry that "we" had to be your instructor. Like I said before, we're happy to be the source of your grief, it doesn't bother us at all. If it makes you feel better, so be it.


I'm curious. Don't you think that the apparent willingness of the actual coalition power holders to extort and discard minor coalition entities affected the willingness of emerging player groups like BRUCE to interact with the coalition? In fact, hasn't the coercion extended to groups like BRUCE who might wish to remain independent? Aren't you in fact, just another man with a gun saying "join us or die?"

I think its perfectly reasonable that a player group might bridle at such threats, especially given the cautionary tales of KOS and the various drone region entities that were not careful enough tiptoeing around RA.

In short, I find it disingenuous to claim to be offering friendship when the terms are subservience.

Eltyron
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:48:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Smurf Fellator

We'll use your conflicts for our fun. Sometimes profit.



This statement of yours shows that you get it. You used "us" and now you feel the consequences. Complaining about it will accomplish what?

In response to the M-D-K guy, please try to be a little more informed of the situation, or perhaps learn how to understand/comprehend what you read. We tried the nice-stick approach, this whole thing escalated because of BRUCE's arrogance to deals which (in hidsight to many many BRUCE members) was more than fair and benefitted them more than us.

Wesley Baird
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2008.05.27 17:52:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Eltyron
In response to the M-D-K guy, please try to be a little more informed of the situation, or perhaps learn how to understand/comprehend what you read. We tried the nice-stick approach, this whole thing escalated because of BRUCE's arrogance to deals which (in hidsight to many many BRUCE members) was more than fair and benefitted them more than us.


Learn to read, thats what I said...Rolling Eyes

You had a moon, they wanted it...blah blah blah, you shot them.

I gave you props for bringing the heat in response to their diplomatic failure...now you blow it by failing to read...

Eltyron
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:05:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Dazhbog


I'm curious. Don't you think that the apparent willingness of the actual coalition power holders to extort and discard minor coalition entities affected the willingness of emerging player groups like BRUCE to interact with the coalition? In fact, hasn't the coercion extended to groups like BRUCE who might wish to remain independent? Aren't you in fact, just another man with a gun saying "join us or die?"

I think its perfectly reasonable that a player group might bridle at such threats, especially given the cautionary tales of KOS and the various drone region entities that were not careful enough tiptoeing around RA.

In short, I find it disingenuous to claim to be offering friendship when the terms are subservience.


If BRUCE had wished to remain independent, then they should not have asked to be blue to the Coalition so they could occupy systems where they did practically no work to pacify. Then they proceed to use said coalition as their 'meatshield' so they could carebear it up in Fountain.

As for extortion, in December, PL sent a roaming gang to BRUCE who were not yet blue, an hour after the engagament, BRUCE contacted PL leadership begging to blue us with the promise that they would fight BoB. With the mediation of Morsus Mihi leadership, this deal was brokered. Now that we have a bit of history/time to compare notes, who extorted whom?

We offered our friendship on the mutual understanding of the bigger picture. No talk of subservience was ever considered. BRUCE full well knew that should BoB prevail, they would be a large target. BRUCE had a chance to do something about it as an equal entity to all other parties interested in the bigger picture/future, but they chose not to. Now they reap what they have sown.

Eltyron
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:09:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Wesley Baird


Learn to read, thats what I said...Rolling Eyes

You had a moon, they wanted it...blah blah blah, you shot them.

I gave you props for bringing the heat in response to their diplomatic failure...now you blow it by failing to read...



You are correct, I read your remark as a statement of challenge, not as a statement of fact. Apologies.

Antodias
Gallente
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2008.05.27 18:49:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Eltyron
Originally by: Wesley Baird


Learn to read, thats what I said...Rolling Eyes

You had a moon, they wanted it...blah blah blah, you shot them.

I gave you props for bringing the heat in response to their diplomatic failure...now you blow it by failing to read...



You are correct, I read your remark as a statement of challenge, not as a statement of fact. Apologies.


Post needs more backpedalling and gunboat trolling.

El Covah
Gallente
LOCKDOWN.
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2008.05.27 19:01:00 - [179]
 

Tbh, the most funny thing I found is that Bruce now thinks they can just "go back" to somewhere in NPC 0.0 (means: Syndicate) to "rebuild" (Read: continue ratting in peace).

Do you really think current people there will just let you walk in there and start "rebuilding"? Laughing

Ciaphas Khaine
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
Posted - 2008.05.27 19:04:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: El Covah
Tbh, the most funny thing I found is that Bruce now thinks they can just "go back" to somewhere in NPC 0.0 (means: Syndicate) to "rebuild" (Read: continue ratting in peace).

Do you really think current people there will just let you walk in there and start "rebuilding"? Laughing


i think everyone who has lived in syndicate during the last 8 or so months and has had to deal with BRUCE's bs can agree on thing.

and that is well be going out of our way to give them one warm welcome party when they come crawling back


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