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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari
Gank Bangers
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:17:00 - [1]
 

I have noted that many of the candidates don't find that sniper battleships are a hot-button issue according to their quick cards, yet my experience in the game is that many pvpers find it to be a hot-button issue. This single topic could swing a significant count of voters, so I think it deserves its own posting and individual responses.

The problem is, largely, that there isn't a good way to counter sniper battleships except with other sniper battleships or, in certain circumstances, or race-specific recons. Heavy neuts come to mind as do a few other things, all of which end up nerfing your typical setup just in case you come across some other sniper battleships. The other side of the coin also is that sniper battleships can do the very thing that CCP tried to engineer out of the game: they have the capacity to leave a fight once begun.

Sniper Battleships are possible because the game mechanics permit ship-class vessels to shoot further out of range than most drones or missiles can fly or further than smaller turrets can hit and then warp away. The very same long-range sniping making these ships immune to conventional ship setups also gives them the power to leave a fight that turns against them.

There aren't a lot of places for a candidate to go with this one. Either a) there is no problem or b) some combination of lowering sniping range and/or increasing the range of tackling mechanisms should be examined seriously by CCP or c) come up with some other way to prevent sniper battleships from leaving a fight that has begun (and address whether or not a stale mate should be an acceptable outcome and, if not, how should things be different to allow one side or the other to prevail).

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:28:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
a) there is no problem


I see what you did there Cool (but the answer is A).

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:31:00 - [3]
 

Obvious troll is obvious

A

Arum Erzoh
Amarr
Kreios Imperium
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:50:00 - [4]
 

A

I find there is still room for tactics within EVE and countering a battleship's range remains viable.

Dungar Loghoth
Caldari
Gank Bangers
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:06:00 - [5]
 

This isn't a troll, I am genuinely concerned about how unfair sniper battleships are. Haven't you encountered this problem before Jade and Goumdong? I can't hit sniper battleships with my fleet harbinger no matter what I do, so that means they are broken.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:16:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/05/2008 16:17:10

Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
This isn't a troll, I am genuinely concerned about how unfair sniper battleships are. Haven't you encountered this problem before Jade and Goumdong? I can't hit sniper battleships with my fleet harbinger no matter what I do, so that means they are broken.


Very Happy Maybe its because *cough* "you" don't have a clue how to fight effectively in PvP? ... just saying.



Dungar Loghoth
Caldari
Gank Bangers
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:19:00 - [7]
 

Sniper battleships are currently and fundamentally broken in that there is no win condition against these tactics except using the same tactics. It ruins the ability of close range ships to be viable combat ships. It ruins the ability of non-sniper battleships to partake in pvp, it creates a hegemony of the old and rich, it removes otherwise viable fitting options of for all sub battleship ship classes, and as a "no lose" choice they encourage and promote everyone to follow the same model which is boring, stagnant, and offers no legitimate meta options except bringing more sniper battleship. Which is to say it promotes blobbing.

There needs to be both a reduction in range and a proliferation of more counters.

Anyone telling you different is either disingenuous or stupid. The proliferation of sniper battleships has nothing to do with jump bridges or cyno jammers and everything to do with people making rational decisions to reduce risk. They were doing this long before cyno jammers and jump bridges existed with the perfect example being the 1400mm II Tempest that could insta-pop cruisers, etc, etc, etc, etc. I'm sure that was "just a response to cyno jammers and jump bridges that were going to be introduced 8/12/24 months later". Fixing jammers and bridges, while important will do nothing to stem the tide of sniper battleships which are a direct result of the change in HP increase from their pre-nov 07 condition, with more hit points and more dps than a tanked version of the smaller ship.

edit: Its gotten so bad that many large and powerful alliance simply do not use close-range battleships for any purpose. BoB being the good example[as they are good at what they do], don't even bother with closerange battleships.

Sunwillow Auryn
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:23:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
This isn't a troll.


Given this is the identical question to one on nano ships except with 'nano ships' changed to 'sniper battleships', looks like one to me :)

I'm not a PvPer, and have never encountered a nano ship of any size - I've tweaked my salvage cruiser up to 1860 m/s with a MWD but I know that's not that speedy by comparison ;) - I have though been podded by a sniperthon from a range of about 180 km. Annoying, but it's like any other tactic that's tricksy to counter. Not necessarily a broken game mechanic, just a way some players have found to make themselves more effective.

Last time I got podded was in a cloaked cov ops frigate with a cov ops cloaking device - i just happened to warp to zero at a gate and an individual with no honour but good grasp of tactics (leaving names out of it! ) was there spamming large concussion bombs. 2 hits to pod, 1 more to death - and I'd not even properly come out of warp when I found myself climbing out of the clone vat back in my home station. Just because I had no way to counter the tactic does not make bombs broken, it's just a creative use of what is available for all of us to use should we choose to do so.

Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:24:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Sniper battleships are currently and fundamentally broken in that there is no win condition against these tactics except using the same tactics.


umm... warp away? use covert ops ships to get close to them? Did I miss something here?

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:25:00 - [10]
 

While I am not a candidate, I am one of the PvPers affected by this.
I think sniping is fine. If a sniper fleet jumps to 200km of a support gang it'll be serious butchery, but it only qualifies the sniper fleet's FC. There are ways to counter sniper BSes (jump on top of them with short range) as there is a way to counter pretty much anything in Eve so far. Just bring more ships if necessary and have a capable FC.
Although if someone feels that range is overpowered and it must be nerfed, I'd be more than glad to share a few arguments or give a couple of hints to help them counter it. I'm not a fan of nerfs, I personally would prefer if people would learn to PvP instead of trying to bend the rules to favor them.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:33:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Omber Zombie

umm... warp away? use covert ops ships to get close to them? Did I miss something here?


Wait till "Dungar" tells you that you are a) stupid, b) wrong, c) have no understanding of human psychology or game theory, d) haven't used EFT nearly enough, e) stupid (again) and f) need to read his entire life history in turgid prose so you can become less "stupid" and have a clue what he's talking about.













yes you might have missed the joke Very Happy


Dungar Loghoth
Caldari
Gank Bangers
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:42:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 16/05/2008 16:48:13
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 16/05/2008 16:43:14
Originally by: Omber Zombie
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Sniper battleships are currently and fundamentally broken in that there is no win condition against these tactics except using the same tactics.


umm... warp away? use covert ops ships to get close to them? Did I miss something here?


No, this is stupid. People snipe because sniping is safe. They will always snipe. And anything you do in the game will not get people to stop sniping. People will always bring as many snipers as are willing to come. Do you think someone will say "Oh look, lets go have a fight, but you snipers can't come"?

No, they aren't. They are going to bring as many snipers as they can each time they go out. People always do because its natural to reduce risk. And bringing more snipers people reduces risk.

Sniping does not counter the blob. Nothing counters sniping and nothing can reasonably counter sniping without stopping combat all together. When i speak of a counter i am meaning "killing it" because if you do not kill it, then you have tied, or you have died. (well, sometimes)

If you think that they do, and that people aren't simply choosing this option because its strong then you are foolish. How does BoB defend its space? With sniper gangs. Why? Because if they encounter something they can't fight they just warp out. I.E. you win, or you tie. Everything else can win, tie, or lose. Unless they are fighting a sniper gang. In which case its tie, or lose.

Clearly everyone chooses the option where they can't be killed by an opponent by virtue of what that opponent brings only by virtue of how large they are. And this especially causes sniping. Because when someone brings a nano-gang against you, you can bring a RR gang out with lots of ewar[and a few smartbombing ships]. And if someone brings a RRing gang out with lots of logistics, you can bring a nano gang with lots of EW. And if someone brings a fast gank you can bring an RR.

But when someone brings a sniping-gang its bring a sniper gang or don't bother. Note the "or don't bother". This is what is making fights happen less. Because people can just warp if things go bad.

Kelsin
Dirt Dog Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:50:00 - [13]
 

Quote:
game theory


This is the one I most often chuckle at.

Mr Rive
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:51:00 - [14]
 

oh man this forum just got dungar'd

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 17:03:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Omber Zombie
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Sniper battleships are currently and fundamentally broken in that there is no win condition against these tactics except using the same tactics.


umm... warp away? use covert ops ships to get close to them? Did I miss something here?


Dungar attempting to troll me. That is what you have missed.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 17:10:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Kelsin
Quote:
game theory


This is the one I most often chuckle at.


Game theory is quite valuable when looking at balance in Eve. It allows you to identify portions of the game that are unbalanced and with a little bit of common sense you can prevent problems from cropping up before we do stupid things like let stations be destroyed.

b0ksah
Minmatar
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2008.05.16 17:28:00 - [17]
 

The Chaplain looks in wonder at this thread.

"Have you never heard about a sling shot?"

The Chaplain chuckles.

"I guess not ..."

Breha Organa
Posted - 2008.05.16 17:42:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

Clearly everyone chooses the option where they can't be killed by an opponent by virtue of what that opponent brings only by virtue of how large they are. And this especially causes sniping. Because when someone brings a nano-gang against you, you can bring a RR gang out with lots of ewar[and a few smartbombing ships]. And if someone brings a RRing gang out with lots of logistics, you can bring a nano gang with lots of EW. And if someone brings a fast gank you can bring an RR.

But when someone brings a sniping-gang its bring a sniper gang or don't bother. Note the "or don't bother". This is what is making fights happen less. Because people can just warp if things go bad.


I'm sensing a pattern here. First, it's "don't bother" if the enemy brings out a nano gang. Now, it's "don't bother" with a sniper gang. I am equally as frustrated when I am in a fleet with 30 or so other pilots who all x'ed up for action... only to have to wait patiently for the action to unfold, perhaps an hour or more later... only to engage the enemy and have them warp away when the battle goes against them.

Trust me... it's frustrating beyond belief. But, it's all part of the game. There are strategies against sniper battleship fleets. I've seen them in action, and yes, you don't always kill every target. Some of them get away. But it's possible to put a check in the "win" column against them.

The larger issue here is BOB... and the growing concern that they are "untouchable". Lag is always an issue, especially in large engagements, but there is little that can be done about this since it affects both sides equally (or should). I, for one, was routing for the goons and the allies they had gathered in the attack on BOB space. It came the closest to succeeding as any previous attempt that I had seen.

A good friend of mine who flew a Wyvern in that very assault, has now quit playing EVE because he believes it is impossible to do anything without it benefiting BOB in some way. Tragic, actually. If you vote for me, and if I am elected... I will make every effort to bring transparency to the player... making 0.0 space "truly" a player-controlled enterprise, giving players the ability to defend low sec space without interference from the occupying faction, allowing you to see who you are buying or selling with, if that is your wish, and getting more than just excuses when filing a petition.

CSM is all about deciding what issues facing players need to be given highest priority. There are rules governing how the CSM can bring an issue before CCP, but ultimately it is up to us to take the laundry list and assign priority to them. Then, once we do this, we will be making recommendations as to how to resolve said issues. When making these determinations, I have voiced some of my own ideas... however, I am willing to take other points of view into account, and I am somewhat sympathetic to both sides.

My biggest strength is in being able to find a reasonable compromise between two seemingly disparate and entrenched sides. If elected, other CSM members will soon see that I am the "peacemaker" of the group. Seeking ways of bringing people together rather than taking one side or another is one thing that I have brought to board meetings, faculty meetings, in real life.

I am the one who hears two sides, understands what their primary concerns are, and after some thought... will ask "what about this solution?" taking the primary concerns of both sides into account. "Outside the box" thinking. Ultimately, you the voter need to decide what kind of CSM you want... one that works together well, or one that just consists of individuals with arms folded, never willing to see each others' points of view?

Your vote matters, and I intend to make sure it does.

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.05.16 18:05:00 - [19]
 

OP has made a very amusing post. A+

Arum Erzoh
Amarr
Kreios Imperium
Posted - 2008.05.16 19:36:00 - [20]
 

Force the CSM's hand:

* Post your issue once the elections are complete (to where ever they need to be posted).
* Make your case for a resolution to your "Sniper" issue.
* Garner the necessary support to get your 11,000-ish votes
* Voila, the CSM now has to act upon your issue with the CCP development team (provided they don't dismiss it)

If it's really that prevalent of a problem you should have no difficulties acquiring the necessary support.

Dungar Loghoth
Caldari
Gank Bangers
Posted - 2008.05.16 21:03:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 16/05/2008 21:04:47
Originally by: Sariyah
I think sniping is fine.


No it is not. It is possible to not die to a sniper gang. And i would not be surprised when sniper-gangs choose not to engage. It happens all the damn time, as it should. That is not the issue. The issue is that they pretty much can't die because unless you have sniper battleships with you they can always warp away.

Do you remember back in summer '06 when you would see plated battleships? Do you remember why that was? It was because there were advantages to tanking hard and there were advantages to sniping.

Now there are no advantages to tanking harder because the modules that allow you snipe are not properly stacked and/or too strong.

I am not saying sniping is bad. Hell, my suggestion makes shooting better. But snipers do not just shoot, they snipe, and then they warp when that does not work. No one has any issues with their offensive capabilities and anyone claiming such is being disingenuous. There isn't much problem with how many hit points many of them have[especially the armor tanking ones]. What people have a problem with is their ability to avoid fights and start fights then warp.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.16 21:23:00 - [22]
 

This may come as a surprise, but to use someone elses words, I'm not against self-preservation techniques. I do not think I should lose a ship every god damn evening unless I can outblob the enemy, and I don't expect others to do it either. I hope that for a long time it will require skill, tactics and patience to catch someone that doesn't want to be catched. I know it's really weird to look for fun in this game instead of standard, glorious blob wins all the time that are all the same but I kid you not, I'm honest about this.
Blobs are most of the time boring.

GBlair
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.05.16 22:27:00 - [23]
 

Well generally ships set up for longe range gunning are rubbish up close and personal, so that's the way to go. I may be a noob in a Caracal but even I know there's no 'ultimate' set-up. The game is all about balance, on missions if I can keep distance between myself and whatever I'm fighting I'm fine. But if they catch up with me my shields start to feel the strain.

ShardowRhino
Caldari
Torque Theory
Posted - 2008.05.16 23:10:00 - [24]
 

OMFG TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT! BURN IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2008.05.17 16:55:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Omber Zombie
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Sniper battleships are currently and fundamentally broken in that there is no win condition against these tactics except using the same tactics.


umm... warp away? use covert ops ships to get close to them? Did I miss something here?


Yeah I think you missed the part where the op forgot to engage his brain, and think of potential tactics and strategies for himself other than f1-8, but I get the feeling he may just be trolling anyhow.

Elliot Reid
Digital Fury Corporation
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.05.17 19:23:00 - [26]
 

Many times I've seen sniper BS get bubbled by a good dictor pilot and then ****ed by close range fleet.

I thought you lot were meant to be the PvP elite when you were in Tri? If an insignificant Corp like mine can do this surly a great bunch of PvP pilots like your good selves can sometimes overcome sniper BS with closer range, faster ships?

Efdi
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.17 22:48:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Elliot Reid
Many times I've seen sniper BS get bubbled by a good dictor pilot and then ****ed by close range fleet.

I thought you lot were meant to be the PvP elite when you were in Tri? If an insignificant Corp like mine can do this surly a great bunch of PvP pilots like your good selves can sometimes overcome sniper BS with closer range, faster ships?


I don't think you "get" Dungar.

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.18 00:11:00 - [28]
 

a) there is no problem that I can see from the arguments you've stated so far combined with the corresponding counter-arguments posted even on this thread alone.


Dungar Loghoth
Caldari
Gank Bangers
Posted - 2008.05.18 06:00:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 18/05/2008 06:07:44
Originally by: Serenity Steele
a) there is no problem that I can see from the arguments you've stated so far combined with the corresponding counter-arguments posted even on this thread alone.


Even if you disagree with me, I think you and the other CSM contenders should be commended for reading all of these threads closely enough to examine the arguments presented within and determining their opinions based on the good of the game and not on their own personal biases.

It's great that you and the other CSM candidates resist have the dedication to resist the urge to just read the titles of threads and not even bother to read the posts or the arguments within. Lesser men might simply base their responses on cursory readings of thread titles and simply base their opinions based on how they feel at the time, regardless of the strength or validity of the argument presented.

Kyle Frost
Caldari
Creative Cookie Procuring
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.05.18 18:45:00 - [30]
 

There are numerous ways to deal with sniper battleships. However, judging by the contents of your posts , I would say that only the “special” solution will work in your case – Don’t undock Laughing


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